Level 80s vs Dragon Soul

[NeziK]

the mage was doing 60k on morchok (bursted up to 100k+)
that would have put him in the top 30 for dps on morchok http://worldoflogs.com/rankings/play...rchok/10N/dps/

Funny part is, he wasnt even hitcapped for the lvl 88 bosses

[Splosion]

Funny part is, he wasnt even hitcapped for the lvl 88 bosses

Yup, totally luck that he didn't miss the combustion xD

[Raugnaut]

Our tanks had to be unhittable (or close to it) otherwise we'd get insta-gibbed by crushing blows :P


Yeh, the 35% debuff was active. I'd like to think we could've cleared normal mode without it, but I'm not sure as the damage reduction played a major part in allowing us to survive with such low health pools.


It's true that we have some insane stat inflation at level 80 right now due to the handful of 409 items available to us, but one caveat was the higher hit caps since the bosses count as level 88s (we estimated 20% hit + 20% exp for melee and 70% hit for ranged). The main issue was surviving spike damage with our lack of health though (tanks with ~90k and dps/healers with 50-60k), which was made a lot easier with the disc priests bubbles but will be even more problematic when we give heroic a try.

While they might have changed the miss cap for 5.0, before that, spells had a "miss cap", so to say, when no matter how much higher the level got, your chance to miss them didnt change. I believe it was 27% or some other odd number for a target 15+ levels higher then you.

While they might have changed it, I think that, for a lvl 88 mob, its about 21% miss chance with spells.

Wowpedia/wowwiki hasnt updated those pages in YEARS. Also, there is the new crit depression- you need 5% more crit to get to crit cap with cata bosses.

---------- Post added 2012-12-14 at 01:46 AM ----------

I'm still not sure about what's happening.
This is obviously a huge balance issue, and this bug is known for quite a long time, but blizzard does nothing to fix it.

Bug? Sure, theres balance issues that come with having ilvl 400 stats, but there is no bug.

[Deleted]

While they might have changed the miss cap for 5.0, before that, spells had a "miss cap", so to say, when no matter how much higher the level got, your chance to miss them didnt change. I believe it was 27% or some other odd number for a target 15+ levels higher then you.

While they might have changed it, I think that, for a lvl 88 mob, its about 21% miss chance with spells.

Before 5.0, I think the miss chance for spells used to increase by 11% per level (after the first 3 levels), which is what we suspect is the case now too. We did quite a lot of tests using target dummies and duels against different levels to come to that conclusion

Haven't tested melee miss chance yet though (just guessed at 2.5% more hit/exp needed per level).

[traen]

Bug? Sure, theres balance issues that come with having ilvl 400 stats, but there is no bug.

Well, don't want to state obvious things, but 409 items were supposed to have lvl85 requirement. So being able to use them at level80 is obvious bug.

[Ferocity]

I'm still not sure about what's happening.
This is obviously a huge balance issue, and this bug is known for quite a long time, but blizzard does nothing to fix it.

It's not a bug, it's how game systems work. Each time you level up (especially at 80+) you lose a lot of combat capability, going down in power. And gear is the only way to make your character stronger. In this case people used gear which was supposed to be used by lv85+, and they didn't have immense ratings' drops due to 80-85+ leveling.

What should be "fixed", that's penalty for leveling. So when lv90 player fights lv80 mob, he'd have same crit and hit chance as lv80 player with his ratings. In other words, ratings should check for mobs' level, with haste/mastery ratings and mana regen to check for level of zone. Losing power when leveling is very counter-intuitive and bad.

[traen]

It's not a bug, it's how game systems work. Each time you level up (especially at 80+) you lose a lot of combat capability, going down in power. And gear is the only way to make your character stronger. In this case people used gear which was supposed to be used by lv85+, and they didn't have immense ratings' drops due to 80-85+ leveling.

What should be "fixed", that's penalty for leveling. So when lv90 player fights lv80 mob, he'd have same crit and hit chance as lv80 player with his ratings. In other words, ratings should check for mobs' level, with haste/mastery ratings and mana regen to check for level of zone. Losing power when leveling is very counter-intuitive and bad.

The bug is lvl85 item equipable on lvl80.

All that should be fixed is level requirements for these items. There's no need to "fix" anything but this.

[TheWindWalker]

that would have put him in the top 30 for dps on morchok http://worldoflogs.com/rankings/play...rchok/10N/dps/

This really confuses me. Most guilds that were still doing DS Progression after a few months (and thus weren't terribly skilled or got set back by guild losses) were working with ~30-40k DPS from most classes. If you have several people pulling >70k back then that's miraculous. Because right here and now Normal Garalon requires about 75k DPS from everyone to beat and that's with the enormous scaling that MoP brought. He's the gear check of the second raid at that.

[Count Zero]

It's not a bug, it's how game systems work. Each time you level up (especially at 80+) you lose a lot of combat capability, going down in power. And gear is the only way to make your character stronger. In this case people used gear which was supposed to be used by lv85+, and they didn't have immense ratings' drops due to 80-85+ leveling.

What should be "fixed", that's penalty for leveling. So when lv90 player fights lv80 mob, he'd have same crit and hit chance as lv80 player with his ratings. In other words, ratings should check for mobs' level, with haste/mastery ratings and mana regen to check for level of zone. Losing power when leveling is very counter-intuitive and bad.

You only lose relative power (lower combat ratings), not absolute power (actual damage).

That level 90 may not have enormous crit chance against that 80 mob, but that 80 is probably going to be one-shot whether crit or not.

[Deleted]

This should not be taken as a insult, but is it just me, or can the tank take any dmg? It does not seem like it

The tank is avoidance capped, quite easy to do with the new blue items they added in MoP that lvl 80's can wear. Took my 80 DK to ICC to try Marrowgar, didn't take a shred of damage the entire fight.

[willowe]

The bug is lvl85 item equipable on lvl80.

All that should be fixed is level requirements for these items. There's no need to "fix" anything but this.

Um, that's not a bug. It says right there in the tooltip "requires L80."

A bug would be it saying "Requires L85," but being able to use at L80.

And no, they don't need to 'fix' anything. Why ruin people's fun? How does it effect you if they go back with ~1/2 the HP and kill the things you're no longer killing?! Hurt your Epeen too much? Poor you.

[Splosion]

Um, that's not a bug. It says right there in the tooltip "requires L80."

A bug would be it saying "Requires L85," but being able to use at L80.

And no, they don't need to 'fix' anything. Why ruin people's fun? How does it effect you if they go back with ~1/2 the HP and kill the things you're no longer killing?! Hurt your Epeen too much? Poor you.

The removal of those items (that have been in since MoP beta, so there's been plenty of time to fix them) would fix a bug that I've already outlined in this thread.

[Deleted]

Just wanted to point out that I am completely in favour of them removing/fixing these 409 items (and the ridiculous avoidance scaling at level 80). As fun as it is to play with gear like that, it has really ruined the 80 bracket in both PvE and PvP (in my opinion anyway). I brought these issues to light during the beta but nothing was done about it and I've been trying ever since to get them changed. If they're here to stay, I at least hope Blizz will consider making an official change to allow 80s into 85 raids, so that we have a permanent playground to put them to good use in.

[Raugnaut]

The bug is lvl85 item equipable on lvl80.

All that should be fixed is level requirements for these items. There's no need to "fix" anything but this.

You have never head of "twinking" have you?

Blizzard released a TON of items that have lvl 85 epic raid gear stats, but are usable by lvl 80s. Blizz is fine with that.

So, shush, quit typing like an idiot.

[Ammeg]

Would be impressive if you used appropriate ilvl level 80 gear.
Don't think it would be possible though.

It is impressive now, yes granted they are nearly un-hittable as tanks but if they got hit they would be smashed in to the ground instantly, I think the fact that they can not only get in to a lvl 85 raid but can actually clear it AT Level 80 is fucking impressive.

Though I am a proper fan girl when it comes to watching Aelo solo stuff (probably because I sometimes get a first row seat whilst being dead on the floor) as well so watching his whole guild kill things is even more impressive to me.

[Deleted]

Oh Aelobin, you never cease to amaze me.

Love, Helai. (The female Night Elf Warrior that always lurks in Dalaran whenever you are there, with our Muradin's Favor/Lightbringer tabard, /dance.)

[Raugnaut]

This really confuses me. Most guilds that were still doing DS Progression after a few months (and thus weren't terribly skilled or got set back by guild losses) were working with ~30-40k DPS from most classes. If you have several people pulling >70k back then that's miraculous. Because right here and now Normal Garalon requires about 75k DPS from everyone to beat and that's with the enormous scaling that MoP brought. He's the gear check of the second raid at that.

Not exactly. Dps have a very interesting thing that happens to them- as they gain more of a +damage stat (Strength, Int, Agi, AP/SP), the value of secondary stats also increase. As they gear up, thier dps will not increase linearly compared to ilvl increase- rather, it curves up. Thus, if you have 5k agility, every point of crit rating should increase your dps by 1.5- with 10k agility, every point of crit rating would increase your dps by, say, 1.85. With the gear that gives 5k agility, you might have 8k crit- the gear that gives 10k agility would have 16k crit rating instead, giving you a MUCH larger dps boost then one would think, even though the relative amount of crit>Agi remains similar.

Secondary wieghts have a lot to do with dps. As players leveld from lvl 85 to 90, the amount of a stat granted by a rating decreases. The amount of rating on a piece of higher lvl gear also increases, but not at the same rate as the stats decrease. Thus, a lvl 85 in full H DS gear might have 50% crit, 40% haste, hit/expertise cap, and an equivalent of 20 points of mastery (old mastery style), when they hit lvl 90 in the same gear, they have 10% crit, 8% haste, 1% hit/experise cap, and about 12 points of mastery compared to 20 (Mastery doesn't seem to decay as much when leveling due to the original 8/2 points of mastery). If they had the lvl 90 quest gear, they might have 17% crit, 12% haste, heroic dungeon hit/expertise cap, and 14 points of mastery.

Finally, AP/SP coefficients on spells change as one levels up. This was extremely noticeable when lvling from 80-85 as a healer, and gearing up. Even in heroic DS gear, my healing power was merely 2.5x what it was compared to lvl 80, very small when compared to tanks/dps increase of 5-10x power (EH/DPS, essentially). The reason for this is that the SP/AP coefficients on spells ALSO cause a decay in the effects of a primary stat as one levels up.

Remember that as you get more of a primary stat, the overall value of secondary stats increase, leading to an exponential dps gain. Also remember that as you level up, the relative value of every stat greatly decreases. Thus, it is quite common for the top players of the previous expansion to preform dps numbers, equal to or greater then that of the average players of the new expansion.

---------- Post added 2012-12-14 at 05:04 PM ----------

Just wanted to point out that I am completely in favour of them removing/fixing these 409 items (and the ridiculous avoidance scaling at level 80). As fun as it is to play with gear like that, it has really ruined the 80 bracket in both PvE and PvP (in my opinion anyway). I brought these issues to light during the beta but nothing was done about it and I've been trying ever since to get them changed. If they're here to stay, I at least hope Blizz will consider making an official change to allow 80s into 85 raids, so that we have a permanent playground to put them to good use in.

There is no longer a lvl 80 bracket in PvE. PvP, however, yea, I can see that. Having a lvl 80 player pop in with full 409s would make him a mini-raid boss in pvp.

[Ethes]

interesting thing to try, happy for you it worked out so easily. But seeing the stats and as you said that it was "easy" I don't think it is particually impressive outside the fact that you've though of doing this.

[Magnerz]

Werld ferst!

[Deleted]

My friend has many low levels in their respective BiS. He recently took part in a level 80 25 man heroic ICC clear, people were running around with MoP BoEs from the AH, the mages in the group were capable of 600k burst DPS on a single target with all their procs and cooldowns aligned, and bosses typically died in about 20 seconds. He has ganked level 90s that have tried to get easy lowbie kills.

If I could de-level one of my currently unplayed characters I would happily make it an 80 twink.