Raids in GW2?

[Fencers]

I am guessing Repefe is counting cross profession combos. Which to my knowledge are not in Warcraft. Though other games from FF11 to Everquest 2 to Radiant Arcana and Tera have cross class skill interactions to one degree or another. Natch, almost every MMO has the ability to use defensive cooldowns on yourself or others.

So... well I am not sure what kind of argument that is meant to be quite honestly.

[Repefe]

Dunno, it's something from previous page about everyone playing on their own or something

Here it is ...

The options available to players to support each other meaningfully isn't in the basic design of the combat system.

As Sham said, it's "every man for himself" for the most part. They'd just end up with larger versions of dungeons in GW2.

I am simply missing where does this argument come from. Lack of single target healers and ... what else ?

[Durzlla]

Dunno, it's something from previous page about everyone playing on their own or something

Here it is ...

I am simply missing where does this argument come from. Lack of single target healers and ... what else ?

i'm just gonna kinda throw my two sense in here... but my guardian build is entirerly supportive (because guardians, and every other class, when they build into being "condi damage" or "support" they can't do jack shit!!, well except rangers, they are a jack of all trades and that's why i love them) i use i believe 2 shouts, Stand your Ground, and some other one that i don't remember but it gives protection and regen... and i use a staff, and pretty much the entire purpose of me being there is throwing as many boons on other people so they kill all the heathens for me as i run around and pretty much just become a nuisance to the enemies with walls of warding, reflections, etc.

The fact i can do that shows that you -can- be supportive, in GW2 and it actually makes every encounter i've done significantly easier (even in PvP because i mean my god, you give -anyone- 12 stacks of might and they'll kill anything), but just like in every other MMO known to fucking man kind no one realy wants to play the healer or tank role because they're "not as much fun." god knows i don't wanna be forced into not being able to kill anything in a reasonable amount of time, but i'm sure as hell going to gear every single utility and all my traits towards keep the group alive!

[Deleted]

i'm just gonna kinda throw my two sense in here... but my guardian build is entirerly supportive (because guardians, and every other class, when they build into being "condi damage" or "support" they can't do jack shit!!, well except rangers, they are a jack of all trades and that's why i love them) i use i believe 2 shouts, Stand your Ground, and some other one that i don't remember but it gives protection and regen... and i use a staff, and pretty much the entire purpose of me being there is throwing as many boons on other people so they kill all the heathens for me as i run around and pretty much just become a nuisance to the enemies with walls of warding, reflections, etc.

The fact i can do that shows that you -can- be supportive, in GW2 and it actually makes every encounter i've done significantly easier (even in PvP because i mean my god, you give -anyone- 12 stacks of might and they'll kill anything), but just like in every other MMO known to fucking man kind no one realy wants to play the healer or tank role because they're "not as much fun." god knows i don't wanna be forced into not being able to kill anything in a reasonable amount of time, but i'm sure as hell going to gear every single utility and all my traits towards keep the group alive!

A lot of guardians are actually doing this and most are combining it with altruistic healing for survivability.
Just look at the guardian forum on GW2Guru and you'll see a lot of topics talking about altruistic healing builds.
Boons are booming atm for guardians

[Fencers]

Dunno, it's something from previous page about everyone playing on their own or something

Here it is ...

I am simply missing where does this argument come from. Lack of single target healers and ... what else ?

Lack of jobs.

Other players don't really seem necessary in the game. They are kinda, there. You are just a body in GW2.

CPCs don't seem to have any real impact on the course of encounters. Party buffs are typically minor/unnoticeable and also have no real impact on the encounter. Who shows up to the fight hardly matter, etc.

It's soloing next to each other.

[Deleted]

Considering GW2 dungeons were the most un-enjoyable & uninteresting I have played outside of re-branded Korean grinders? There are not enough Ms, Es and Hs to express the "meh" GW2 raids would likely bring for me.

That said, I think raid-like instances, in so far as greater than group size 5, is possible. I don't think it'll be anything worth noting or prestigious, but still possible. Creating an instance with 10/20 player limit is no great shakes.

What about Fractals? To be honest, only did 2 dungeons myself until now, but found Fractals amazing, did like 6-9 of the mini-dungeons in there.

I also did the one in charr-land as explorable, there were 2 bosses, one was a snooze, we kept dieing and running back, that was boring, but the other was fun, using cannons on adds and stuff
So one dungeon good and one so and so until now is great for me. I'm sure there's worse ones and some I'll like even more.


That said, Fencers, whenever I see you post around here you're complaining about something. Now, I understand you don't like this and that and so fourth. But you seem to mostly post how you dislike/hate almost everything in GW2. So that being said, I need to ask you, are you sure this is the game for you? Because if you dislike it so bad, just quit it and find one you do like.

---------- Post added 2012-12-14 at 05:26 PM ----------

Lack of jobs.

Other players don't really seem necessary in the game. They are kinda, there. You are just a body in GW2.

CPCs don't seem to have any real impact on the course of encounters. Party buffs are typically minor/unnoticeable and also have no real impact on the encounter. Who shows up to the fight hardly matter, etc.

It's soloing next to each other.

No, it's not. Let's take the dungeons I went to:
Fractals... well, there's quite a few of them, but you did say there were mini-games. Someone had to pour molten lava on the dredge end-boss. Someone had to sit on button to open door before. Someone had to be the dolphin rezzer. Someone had to take the mallet and hit the gongs and someone had to take it when it dropped. And so fourth. The roles aren't tank-dps-healer, they're rather dps, support, someone doing something special to fight. The difference is anyone can fulfill those roles.
And you claim these are boring mini-games. What about Heigan's dancing in Naxx? wasn't that a mini-game? I think it was! yet it doesn't make it less fun.


In the charr dungeon, there was this area where there were some spike chains on some poles, 5 of them. One for each player. So your role was to pull that when mobs came, and dps from your position the mobs down. In the last boss, there were 3 cannons, you could go on the frost one to slow boss down for example as he was kind of fast, you could go and do more damage, you could go on cannons from before and dps the adds using them and slowing them down. You had more choice then in... WoW for example.
Yes, I admit, the boss with the 2 little adds was just annoying rather then having you do different roles. Though even there there was the role of getting the dead back up to life (assuming they weren't fully dead).

Overall, you're missing the forest because of the trees.

[Durzlla]

A lot of guardians are actually doing this and most are combining it with altruistic healing for survivability.
Just look at the guardian forum on GW2Guru and you'll see a lot of topics talking about altruistic healing builds.
Boons are booming atm for guardians

Yeah, guardians have some significant healing abilities, like i know activating the #2 on the staff gives everyone like 2k of health and then if i can channel my 4 all the way (gives 12 stacks of might) it'll heal everyone around me for 4k or so, which is pretty ridiculous when you think about it lol.

[Repefe]

Lack of jobs.

Other players don't really seem necessary in the game. They are kinda, there. You are just a body in GW2.

CPCs don't seem to have any real impact on the course of encounters. Party buffs are typically minor/unnoticeable and also have no real impact on the encounter. Who shows up to the fight hardly matter, etc.

It's soloing next to each other.

So it's camouflaged I want hard trinity argument ? You want to be the healer/tank that the group is desperatelly looking for so they can do something ? The instrant gratification I am needed ? I think we have had this argument before. You can spec for a job ... to be more tanky or better support or glass cannon. You are not required to however. Different kind of game and all ...

I do think that the class system could be better overall, a bit more spicy so you can recognize more easily when and how you interact with others. Combos should be more noticable as well.

That said, Fencers, whenever I see you post around here you're complaining about something. Now, I understand you don't like this and that and so fourth. But you seem to mostly post how you dislike/hate almost everything in GW2. So that being said, I need to ask you, are you sure this is the game for you? Because if you dislike it so bad, just quit it and find one you do like.

Yeah I always thought moderators are supposed to be ppl who are positive about games ... something does not click here.

[Fencers]

What about Fractals? To be honest, only did 2 dungeons myself until now, but found Fractals amazing, did like 6-9 of the mini-dungeons in there.

Seemed the same as dungeons to me. Shorter with some mini games thrown in. Fractals don't change GW2's gameplay.

That said, Fencers, whenever I see you post around here you're complaining about something. Now, I understand you don't like this and that and so fourth. But you seem to mostly post how you dislike/hate almost everything in GW2.

I only dislike cosmetics and dungeons actually. The latter I am not forced to play. The former I don't have to spend money or effort on.

So that being said, I need to ask you, are you sure this is the game for you? Because if you dislike it so bad, just quit it and find one you do like.

I don't like the assumption here. Its harmful to the medium.

It assumes one has attached their cart to one horse ["is this the game for you?"], that enjoyment is the chief motivator ["if you dislike it..."] and can also imply monetary value as a factor in critique.

Noting poor or good design should always be of interest to players. A game is foremost about gameplay.

Enjoyment is your own thing. I do not care about enjoyment as a discussion topic- its typically useless/anecdotal.

I always thought moderators are supposed to be ppl who are positive about games ... something does not click here.

Nope. Quite a lot of mods are not keen of this or that game. Even of sub forums they moderate. Shockingly, mods are individuals.

So it's camouflaged I want hard trinity argument ?

Who said anything about want in that post? I was disagreeing with Mariuss idea that raid mechanics can work to the same degree with GW2's combat system. To paraphrase myself; "GW2 raids would just be bigger dungeons."

You want to be the healer/tank that the group is desperately looking for so they can do something ?

Yes, I would prefer a tanking role if available. However, if an encounter was sufficiently puzzle-y, ala Guild Wars 1, I would not mind the lack of tanking or healing*.

I don't think GW2's twitch based combat can support GW1 style encounters, natch. Environments... maybe. Though you have less interesting tools to build them that way.

*though I would never heal. Not interesting as a gameplay mechanism to me.

I think we have had this argument before. You can spec for a job ... to be more tanky or better support or glass cannon. You are not required to however. Different kind of game and all ...

As I said a few times now; spec'ing for that "job" hardly seems to matter. The other "jobs" players bring to an encounter or group are largely meaningless.

Group play seems to hardly matter. Its just bodies being thrown at the wall. The forethought and meta of GW2 is very shallow. Its all twitch/Nintendo stuff.

[Deleted]

The gameplay in dungeons is the exact same as anything else you find in the pve world, just with higher damage or otherwise less room for error. Knowing how to move your character so npc's can get few attacks off, positioning and knowing what attacks to watch out for are the only things that matter in terms of fight mechanics really. And since none of these things require much coordination from a group, neither does the dungeon gameplay.

[Repefe]

Nope. Quite a lot of mods are not keen of this or that game. Even of sub forums they moderate. Shockingly, mods are individuals.

It's just that whenever I read something you post I fully expect it to be another negative opinion about something. Maybe instead of Heartseeker Vayne that sig should carry some Amumu skin ...

[Fencers]

It's just that whenever I read something you post I fully expect it to be another negative opinion about something. Maybe instead of Heartseeker Vayne that sig should carry some Amumu skin ...

Huehue.

I still don't care about enjoying the game. I only am interested in how it is designed, the hows & whys of it's play systems.

Just don't care too much about fun w/r/t video games.

[The Darkitecht]

Huehue.

I still don't care about enjoying the game. I only am interested in how it is designed, the hows & whys of it's play systems.

Just don't care too much about fun w/r/t video games.

Except in order to understand how things are designed, and how and why the way things work, you have to actually play them. To say that a Guild Wars 2 dungeon, is simply 5 players soloing next to each other; akin to that of 5 random players in the world killing a champion, is completely ignorant.

GW2 has endless synergy and depth among organized parties, but the build diversity in the game is so high that you won't be able to find 'the best build' online. Also, the tools to do serious number crunching aren't provided. People just love to have their hand held and are too lazy to figure it out for themselves.

If you think that it's as one dimensional as you say it is, then i implore you to go and try higher level fractals (13+). Or even a round of explorables without having to repair once; with 5 people who have unorganized, sloppy builds and run around in circles auto attacking with their ranged weapon. I'm sure you'll be equally successful.

[Fencers]

Except in order to understand how things are designed, and how and why the way things work, you have to actually play them. To say that a Guild Wars 2 dungeon, is simply 5 players soloing next to each other; akin to that of 5 random players in the world killing a champion, is completely ignorant.

I have played and cleared all the dungeons [save 1 path in HOTW] and all the fractals. The design of the game did not feel any different in any of these dungeons/fractals.

Your presumption is foolish.

[The Darkitecht]

Guardian Trait: Crits grant party members might!
Warrior spell: gives party members 20% crit! (A boon guardians cannot easily acquire)
Warrior Banner: Boon duration increase.

a very simplistic example of 3 skills in synergy to provide a great affect.

now do that with every rune, sigil, trait, gear choice for all 5 members of your party, and compare that to 5 players running around shooting their rifle/scepter with a 5 signet build.

Sure, as has been argued a thousand times on this and other internet forums, you can be 'successful'. If success is taking an hour or more to do an explorable, having to graveyard zerg and repair multiple times.

Progression in GW2's current state:

1) Finish the dungeon in a long and painful manner.
2) Finish the dungeon hopefully faster, with greater understanding of what caused the pain.
3) Finish the dungeon even faster, with very little pain.
4) Do 5 dungeons in the time it takes most groups to do 1.

Y'know, the skill based progression that was promised before the game launched.

You're not going to achieve or progress without accepting the combat depth and synergy that exists in this game, and to argue that there is none, or that the game is shallow and doesn't change how is played based upon said synergy...is again, ignorant. You just haven't tried, because anyone who has spent sufficient time understanding the combat system and plays with like minded/experienced individuals will know exactly where I'm coming from.

p.s, I too completed everything on my first character, my first time doing each dungeon. That did not make me an expert.

[VibrantViolet]

I have played and cleared all the dungeons [save 1 path in HOTW] and all the fractals. The design of the game did not feel any different in any of these dungeons/fractals.

Your presumption is foolish.

How high did you get in fractals? Once you get to 20+, it really starts to get challenging. You can't just "zerg" or make mistakes, you have to have an organized group who knows how to dodge well, use appropriate gear, and equip the right abilities.

[Fencers]

How high did you get in fractals? Once you get to 20+, it really starts to get challenging. You can't just "zerg" or make mistakes, you have to have an organized group who knows how to dodge well, use appropriate gear, and equip the right abilities.

A little after the agony mechanic kicked in to the point where it was more damage than you could handle. About 15 or so. Haven;t played in a bit. I only play in guild group. Only PUG'd in GW2 beta. :>

Challenge isn't an issue I have raised though. I do think GW2 dungeons are tuned pretty okay in that regard.

[Durzlla]

Guardian Trait: Crits grant party members might!
Warrior spell: gives party members 20% crit! (A boon guardians cannot easily acquire)
Warrior Banner: Boon duration increase.

a very simplistic example of 3 skills in synergy to provide a great affect.

now do that with every rune, sigil, trait, gear choice for all 5 members of your party, and compare that to 5 players running around shooting their rifle/scepter with a 5 signet build.

Sure, as has been argued a thousand times on this and other internet forums, you can be 'successful'. If success is taking an hour or more to do an explorable, having to graveyard zerg and repair multiple times.

Progression in GW2's current state:

1) Finish the dungeon in a long and painful manner.
2) Finish the dungeon hopefully faster, with greater understanding of what caused the pain.
3) Finish the dungeon even faster, with very little pain.
4) Do 5 dungeons in the time it takes most groups to do 1.

Y'know, the skill based progression that was promised before the game launched.

You're not going to achieve or progress without accepting the combat depth and synergy that exists in this game, and to argue that there is none, or that the game is shallow and doesn't change how is played based upon said synergy...is again, ignorant. You just haven't tried, because anyone who has spent sufficient time understanding the combat system and plays with like minded/experienced individuals will know exactly where I'm coming from.

p.s, I too completed everything on my first character, my first time doing each dungeon. That did not make me an expert.

This isn't as deeply syngergised as your example, but i know two of my friends who play together ALL the time went with an ele + warrior set up and the ele runs with a staff, so they have a ton of combo fields and the warrior picked up a metric shit ton of combo finishers, so they just tear through things together.

And then idk what me and glytch managed to do but my guardian + his warrior = an unstoppable duo, granted if we get separated for what ever reason we can't do much other than hold enemies off, but together we just absolutely destroy things xD.

[Deleted]

I only dislike cosmetics and dungeons actually. The latter I am not forced to play. The former I don't have to spend money or effort on.

Fair enough.

I don't like the assumption here. Its harmful to the medium.

It assumes one has attached their cart to one horse ["is this the game for you?"], that enjoyment is the chief motivator ["if you dislike it..."] and can also imply monetary value as a factor in critique.

Noting poor or good design should always be of interest to players. A game is foremost about gameplay.

Enjoyment is your own thing. I do not care about enjoyment as a discussion topic- its typically useless/anecdotal.

Now hold on... first that was just a suggestion of a question you should ask yourself if you dislike the game so much since I mostly saw you complain. You said that's not true, so good for you, then it's understandable if you complain about things you dislike as points in a game you still like as a whole.
That said, about the first part you assumed something. When I said "is this the game for you?" I don't mean you're only playing this game, but as in "are you sure you like playing this game?"

And yes, like. Now we get to second point, enjoyment. Guild Wars 2 is a game. Games are played for enjoyment. That is the chief motivator. You could say that they can also be social hubs, this can also be true for MMOs, though in a lesser extent, but the primary goal of games is enjoyment, fun as it's called. And no, you don't also put monetary value as a factor. Oh, if you say, for 60$ I have more fun then for 40$ once+15$ per month sure, but if you put the monetary factor as a major factor for buying a game I don't think it's a suitable factor. For example, there's plenty free to play games, like fully free to play, yet I'm not playing all myself even if I'm not in a really good situation financially. Why? They're free, so no money and I get free game? Well... no, because in many of those games I'm not having fun. So, see the idea, no enjoyment = no play. I don't play a game I don't really enjoy because it costs less then another that is better.

If anything, I'd rather save money each month and get the game I like or wait for discounts then buy a crappy game similar instead but that isn't fun for me just because it's same genre but cheaper.

Because that's why I play games in the end, for enjoyment. That is the sole factor in playing a game. The monetary factor is only a factor in not playing a game, as in, I can't afford game X now, so even though it's good I won't play it. But it is never a factor in keeping playing said game if I dislike it.
In general though, since I can't lose much, I am careful with what games I buy though and won't buy it it doesn't appeal to me just because it belongs in a universe or something. This is why I didn't buy MoP for example, even though I was and still am to an extent a WoW fan, it didn't appeal to me at all.

[Fencers]

And yes, like. Now we get to second point, enjoyment. Guild Wars 2 is a game. Games are played for enjoyment. That is the chief motivator.

Not at all. One can derive interest despite enjoyment. The two are not linked universally.

By virtue of being a game wouldn't necessarily mean any particular game was made solely for entertainment, i.e. revenue.

I can think of examples of this across a number of media. The question as to whether some one "likes" a film, book or video game [as in this case] is mostly useless to criticism.

And yes, I do think it is spectacularly harmful to the medium for "gamers" [& scare-town quotes around that because I have open contempt for the vulgarity of the vg audience] to contain judgement along an axis of likes/value.

I don't apologize for the belief that the average video game player is undeserving of the medium.