WTF I just did in dalaran

[Solonar]

To those saying the Sunreavers are only a minority of Dalaran are pretty wrong. You pretty much got 30% Silver Covenant, 30% Sunreavers and 40% Kirin Tor. However, both Sunreavers and Silver Covenant, despite holding ties with either Alliance or Horde - are "forced" to be neutral.

And both sides have a point when Jaina begins to imprison or attack innocent civilians. One side is pretty much explained in the Horde's Purge of Dalaran. Rommath basically says that every Sunreaver they manage to get out safely from Dalaran, is another Sunreaver that swaps his loyalties to the Horde. Lor'themar also says it...due to the Alliance (in this case Jaina, and to a lesser extent, Vereesa and her Silver Covenant) they are being pushed closer to Hellscream's Horde - to think he had thoughts about LEAVING the Horde for the Alliance, which Miss Peace-Lover fucked up big time.

However, while saved civilians and stronger/more important individuals can become good additions to the Horde - some were part of Dalaran's Kirin Tor to be at peace. One of the Magistrix' you save on the Horde side pretty much says "So I'm being kicked out of my home? ...Wow, kbye." and Arcanist Savor: "So long, Dalaran.." So both sides have a good side, but also a downside. There is no perfect choice in this if you want to prevent another betrayal.

Now, for the atrocities the Alliance performed...those aren't that many compared to the Horde of old and new. Most of those happened during the First and Second Wars, during which the Horde were bloodthirsty, demon-worshipping Orcs. My Alliance lore isn't perfect but...let's see.

Medivh bringing the Horde into Azeroth (Medivh had two personalities, a friendly one - part of the Alliance, and a dark one due to Sargeras)
Imprisoning the Horde in Internment Camps (This one isn't really an atrocity, considering it's a lot better than butchering them all...)
=> Follows up with Durnholde's prisoners being used for amusement as gladiators (This one can be considered an atrocity, yes)
The Culling of Stratholme (Arthas was Alliance-alligned, so this can be considered an atrocity as well - unless you want an atrocity against the Horde...)
Garithos ordering an execution on all Blood Elves for treason he caused himself with his racism - which would've succeeded were it not for Vashj. Dalaran's prisons were anti-magic.
Camp Taurajo, explained multiple times...most of those soldiers were convicts, and since the Alliance had so many costs...criminals becoming soldiers was one option among others. Still, shit went down.

Now...Horde has a far longer list, and I'm not going to name them all but...since we like digging in the past.

Butchering the Draenei.
Bloodlust so bad they even killed their own in rage.
Using the bodies of the fallen Humans to create Death Knights.
Sacrificing Humans for their 'demon masters'
Warsong attacks on Ashenvale (post WC3) - continues in Cataclysm.
The events of Stonetalon Mountain - granted, the Overlord misunderstood his orders but still an atrocity in the Horde's name.
Attacks on Hillsbrad Fields, and with Cataclysm - Southshore as well.
Attacks on the Kirin Tor outside of Dalaran's protective dome - followed up with attacks on a shielded village in Silverpine (Cataclysm)
Gilneas invasion.

I could go on, really... so yes, the Horde does a lot worse and a lot more recently. Garrosh does a lot of bad things, but he also did do some good things. Sadly, the bad overshadows the good. And while I don't agree with his methods for Theramore - he had every right to attack it, same for North Watch. I don't recall those soldiers ever being neutral...and Theramore was supporting the Alliance by letting them move their troops through to the Barrens.

Conclusion: Both sides have done bad things, either more or worse - or the other way around.

[checking facts]

If you fuck with Jaina, you pay the price!

I guess jaina is a pretty expensive whore, than lol

[RexalLB]

From the PoV of someone who plays a lot of Strategy and Tactical games...

Garrosh's reasoning for attacking Theramore are as follows:


1) Look at a map of Kalimdor, The Horde forces have a major presence on the east coast (Ogrimmar), and the central (Thunder Bluff), but are caught in a pincer movement from the north and central east (Darkshore and Theramore), Theramore itself is the Alliances strongest port on the east coast, a perfect staging ground to land an army and keep a Navy around Kalimdor.

Bearing the above in mind, we move onto point no.2

2) If the Alliance was to land an army at Theramore, it would be able to easily divide the horde forces because an attack into Barrens will allow a siege of Thunder Bluff (or at least, Mulgore) to take place, with the strength of the Alliance airforce, Air Parity will be achieved over Alliance forces meaning the horde will be unable to get their Airforce into play to break the siege, This will separate Ogrimmar from its most valuable ally in the taurens, the fertile plains of Mulgore for food (technically speaking obviously), and in effect, giving the alliance control over 80% of Kalimdor (minus small pockets of resistance from various horde outposts) because the horde will be pushed into a small pocket around Ashenvale, Azshara, Duratar and Northern Barrens.

3) If the above is to be believed, then Garrosh would have had every reason to strategically attack Theramore, If Theramore would have fallen, it would have given the horde almost total dominance of Kalimdor, leaving in effect, only Darkshore as the viable place to land an alliance army, which is much easily countered than a possible 2 landing sites.

This is imo, why Garrosh decided to attack Theramore, however he also waited until the "Might" of Alliance magical forces, Jaina, Kalecgos, Rhonin etc. were all in 1 place to launch an attack with his Mana bomb, (Rhonin sacrificed his life to save the others), Now the mana bomb itself caused a lot of civilian casualities (I attribute it similar to the effect of Nakasagi/Hiroshima A-bombings), but Garrosh wishes to intimidate the Alliance by offering a show of strength "We have this weapon, and we aren't afraid to use it!" sort of deal.

===========================

Now onto why Jaina attacked Dalaran:

Not many people know, but Jaina actually coalesced a load of water elementals in an attempt to flood Ogrimmar for the damage that was done to her town, an Eye for an Eye sort of deal... Thrall attempted to stop her, but only found himself at her mercy and unable to truely stop her advance, and it took the blue dragon aspect Kaelcgos to calm her down and get her to not flood the city.

After an Investigation on the mana bomb, it was discovered that at least 1 member of the Kirin Tor, a high ranking Sunreaver was working for Garrosh, this is why Jaina decided to get rid of the sunreavers out of Dalaran, a "neutral" party that is suppose to not be taking sides in a war, took sides in the war and thus should be banished from a safe heaven.

The peasants are always punished for their leaders wrong-doings so they were all forced to leave, or risk Dalaran breaking out into open warfare once again.

[Deleted]

How in game is the impact on Dalaran of the Sunreaver's purge represented? Is Dalaran instanced now, so that on a character who has done the purge quest, there are no Sunreavers while for others (e.g. those levelling in the wotlk zones) it's unchanged?

[Zoma]

After an Investigation on the mana bomb, it was discovered that at least 1 member of the Kirin Tor, a high ranking Sunreaver was working for Garrosh, this is why Jaina decided to get rid of the sunreavers out of Dalaran, a "neutral" party that is suppose to not be taking sides in a war, took sides in the war and thus should be banished from a safe heaven.

All true, but I think you have the order mixed up a bit.

A Sunreaver was found weakening Theramore's defenses before the mana bomb came. He is rescued in the Horde Theramore scenario before the bomb drops. This doesn't cause her to kick the Sunreavers out, but it does start her distrust of them. The Sunreaver portal which aided the Horde in sneaking into Darnassus was what convinced Jaina that the Sunreavers are fully Horde and no longer neutral to the war.

[Asmalya]

Garrosh's reasoning for attacking Theramore are as follows:
<snip>

He doesnt need any reason. His reason is he wants to purge every non orc from kalimdor and to an extend Azeroth.
The only reason he concentrates on the Alliance only is that he needs the "lesser" horde races.
I bet in an alternate future were garrosh would succed with purging the alliance he would turn the orcs against the rest of the horde quickly.

[Yriel]

Oh and another picture for those "All Sunreaver are guilty" people :
Obviously he´s a traitor!

[Wayne25uk]

To those saying the Sunreavers are only a minority of Dalaran are pretty wrong. You pretty much got 30% Silver Covenant, 30% Sunreavers and 40% Kirin Tor. However, both Sunreavers and Silver Covenant, despite holding ties with either Alliance or Horde - are "forced" to be neutral.

And both sides have a point when Jaina begins to imprison or attack innocent civilians. One side is pretty much explained in the Horde's Purge of Dalaran. Rommath basically says that every Sunreaver they manage to get out safely from Dalaran, is another Sunreaver that swaps his loyalties to the Horde. Lor'themar also says it...due to the Alliance (in this case Jaina, and to a lesser extent, Vereesa and her Silver Covenant) they are being pushed closer to Hellscream's Horde - to think he had thoughts about LEAVING the Horde for the Alliance, which Miss Peace-Lover fucked up big time.

However, while saved civilians and stronger/more important individuals can become good additions to the Horde - some were part of Dalaran's Kirin Tor to be at peace. One of the Magistrix' you save on the Horde side pretty much says "So I'm being kicked out of my home? ...Wow, kbye." and Arcanist Savor: "So long, Dalaran.." So both sides have a good side, but also a downside. There is no perfect choice in this if you want to prevent another betrayal.

Now, for the atrocities the Alliance performed...those aren't that many compared to the Horde of old and new. Most of those happened during the First and Second Wars, during which the Horde were bloodthirsty, demon-worshipping Orcs. My Alliance lore isn't perfect but...let's see.

Medivh bringing the Horde into Azeroth (Medivh had two personalities, a friendly one - part of the Alliance, and a dark one due to Sargeras)
Imprisoning the Horde in Internment Camps (This one isn't really an atrocity, considering it's a lot better than butchering them all...)
=> Follows up with Durnholde's prisoners being used for amusement as gladiators (This one can be considered an atrocity, yes)
The Culling of Stratholme (Arthas was Alliance-alligned, so this can be considered an atrocity as well - unless you want an atrocity against the Horde...)
Garithos ordering an execution on all Blood Elves for treason he caused himself with his racism - which would've succeeded were it not for Vashj. Dalaran's prisons were anti-magic.
Camp Taurajo, explained multiple times...most of those soldiers were convicts, and since the Alliance had so many costs...criminals becoming soldiers was one option among others. Still, shit went down.

Now...Horde has a far longer list, and I'm not going to name them all but...since we like digging in the past.

Butchering the Draenei.
Bloodlust so bad they even killed their own in rage.
Using the bodies of the fallen Humans to create Death Knights.
Sacrificing Humans for their 'demon masters'
Warsong attacks on Ashenvale (post WC3) - continues in Cataclysm.
The events of Stonetalon Mountain - granted, the Overlord misunderstood his orders but still an atrocity in the Horde's name.
Attacks on Hillsbrad Fields, and with Cataclysm - Southshore as well.
Attacks on the Kirin Tor outside of Dalaran's protective dome - followed up with attacks on a shielded village in Silverpine (Cataclysm)
Gilneas invasion.

I could go on, really... so yes, the Horde does a lot worse and a lot more recently. Garrosh does a lot of bad things, but he also did do some good things. Sadly, the bad overshadows the good. And while I don't agree with his methods for Theramore - he had every right to attack it, same for North Watch. I don't recall those soldiers ever being neutral...and Theramore was supporting the Alliance by letting them move their troops through to the Barrens.

Conclusion: Both sides have done bad things, either more or worse - or the other way around.

Classic mistake you have just made,there is actually 2 hordes,the burning legions version of the horde which some say is the original true horde which some are still loyal too,and thralls horde,you have them 2 mixed up greatly in this statement im afraid...

---------- Post added 2012-12-14 at 02:08 PM ----------

From the PoV of someone who plays a lot of Strategy and Tactical games...

Lol had to laugh at this just screams to me "i played a few levels of age of empires and Command and Conquer so now im an expert" rofl sorry no offence :P

[Solonar]

Classic mistake you have just made,there is actually 2 hordes,the burning legions version of the horde which some say is the original true horde which some are still loyal too,and thralls horde,you have them 2 mixed up greatly in this statement im afraid...

Actually, I didn't. If you actually read, you'd see I mentioned:

Now, for the atrocities the Alliance performed...those aren't that many compared to the Horde of old and new. Most of those happened during the First and Second Wars, during which the Horde were bloodthirsty, demon-worshipping Orcs. My Alliance lore isn't perfect but...let's see.

[RexalLB]

Lol had to laugh at this just screams to me "i played a few levels of age of empires and Command and Conquer so now im an expert" rofl sorry no offence :P

If you call playing SC2, all C&C games, all AoE games, all Civilization games, all LotR:BfME games, among others laughable... then yeah, I agree with you, but I've spent most of my life (Since the PS1 when I was like 7) playing RTS games as they are my favorite genre, not to mention I love history and battle tactics etc. I watch all the shows and try to understand what the commanders of battles did right/wrong etc.

I watch the tournaments too, to understand why everyone is doing what they are doing too, I am no expert by all means, but I consider myself to have a higher than average understanding of battle tactics from the ancient world up until modern times, but as i said... I'm no expert, hence. "From the PoV of someone who plays a lot of strategy and tactical games"

[Asmalya]

Classic mistake you have just made,there is actually 2 hordes,the burning legions version of the horde which some say is the original true horde which some are still loyal too,and thralls horde,you have them 2 mixed up greatly in this statement im afraid...P

The alliance from before warcraft 3 isnt the same as the alliance after too.

[checking facts]

The alliance from before warcraft 3 isnt the same as the alliance after too.

that's arguable because:

1 - the alliance never officially disbanded, they just changed a few members for others;
2 - the alliance was never controlled by evil entities that wanted to use them to destroy planets and kill draenei for running away;

[Azahel]

I just finished the purge of dalaran quest line and ..... WTF was that ?!!

this is not what ally do I felt guilty

when jaina said to me thx hero i found my self answer her : no i am not hero this not hero business

it's wrong

It's not as bad as it seems. It's what cops do IRL
They were sent to prision for their crimes, those who resisted were killed. Simple as that

[Yriel]

It's not as bad as it seems. It's what cops do IRL
They were sent to prision for their crimes, those who resisted were killed. Simple as that

I don´t know what country you live in but here not everyone who resists arrest is shot on the spot.
It must be awful to get drunk in your place.

[Tenjen]

actually this is more like ethnic cleansing using government forces and cops.

a handful of spies in a group and you subjugate the whole lot when they're loyal to you? When they've contributed to the city and the Kirin Tor? Jaina wasnt there as much as others to witness their loyalties and contributions during Wrath. This isnt somethign Varian would have done. Not like this. His wife has always held a hatred against her people (those who went as bloodelves), so her actions arent surprising.

[Uennie]

It's funny seeing Horde fanbois state this without examples. Oh wait, are you gona say Taurajo? Garithos? or the Orcish imprisonment after the second war?

Grasp at straws and yell "Daelin Proudmoore"?

Or really go off the deep end and say Azshara and Arthas?

1) Night Elves are extremely prejudiced and very racist. They have exterminated or near exterminated entire races/subraces simply because they were in their way (Illidan vs peaceful Dark Trolls). Night Elves in general do not see any race in the Alliance as their equal, they are the Forsaken of the Alliance. They also have cast out their own heroes because of their xenophobia, and created monsters by refusing to accept their own people who may believe in a different thing. The Night Elves are actually the main source of issues that have threatened the whole of Azeroth as a planet not just societies.
2) Stormwind nobles have repeatedly crushed those of lower standing and have never answered for it which leads to the current dissent between the commoners and the higher ups (not to mention the travesty of the builders who reneged and went to Westfall).
3) The Alliance abandoned the High Elves in one of their greatest times of need, and when the High Elves were completely destroyed and became the Blood Elves (far before they allied with the Horde), the Alliance turned away from them. The High Elves were the main proprietors of the mage arts and were the only reason the humans learned to be mages.
4) When the Blood Elves initially wanted to re-ally with the Alliance (before they went to the Horde), the Alliance sent an ambassador from Ironforge who was revealed to be purposefully sabotaging the the Blood Elves and their efforts to recover (not to mention spying on them). It was this that forced the Blood Elves to walk straight into the Horde.
5) Despite the Horde being made of an alliance of convenience, the Sunreaver betrayal is really the only big one that has shaken them to their core. The Alliance on the other hand has gone through numerous internal upheavals and betrayals that regularly shatter their idea of peace and harmony.

There are many other examples. Frankly, I'm not pro-Horde or pro-Alliance, I try to see things evenly. The point is, that the Alliance is full of just as many fuckups as the Horde is, ranging from misunderstandings to massive evils. Also, don't call people "fanboys", it's not allowed on forums and you look like a dick.

[hellboyy]

Yes, YES! Bring your rage to bear! {◕ ◡ ◕}

ima macro this to my bear ty

[Tenjen]

as for the arguement of "its war; people die"

yeah accept the fact the fact that civilians die, but never use that to condone or ignore it, fight it constantly.

[LazarusLong]

I'v seen video of this quest and it's pretty disgusting. You kill fleeing and frightened elves.

Oh and I sure hope that Veressa will die this expansion. Preferably by the hands of Lor'themar.

[Ruud]

I'v seen video of this quest and it's pretty disgusting. You kill fleeing and frightened elves.

Oh and I sure hope that Veressa will die this expansion. Preferably by the hands of Lor'themar.

Maybe YOU killed fleeing and frightened elves. I left them alone, and only killed the quest mobs, who are traitors who tried to make the Kirin Tor work for the Horde, and are here to kill me and all other alliance.
Still hope we get to put down Jaina though, she has become the Alliance's Garrosh.