Shadow Priest DOTs / Haste

[Arlee]

Quit picking fights. Cast doesn't mean "finished casting". Fireball doesn't snapshot stats when it hits the target, it snapshot when it's finished being cast.

Oh, and here I was wracking my brain trying figure out what he was trying to say because it looked like he was saying no and then saying the exact same thing with different words.

[ThrashMetalFtw]

Lets say your at your haste soft cap.. What is your dots gaining with haste proc? with int procs it will surely do more damage. I think it's waste of time refreshing dots for haste. I certainty do it for int procs.

If you recast your DoTs with a Haste proc, they will obviously tick faster, hence do more dmg, regardless of you being at the Haste cap or not. Obviously.

[hikamiro]

If you recast your DoTs with a Haste proc, they will obviously tick faster, hence do more dmg, regardless of you being at the Haste cap or not. Obviously.

No, if you're not gaining any of the haste break points out of it, the dot will do the same amount of damage, just in less time. it's not worth refreshing because it's the same damage per gcd regardless.

[Mctriple]

Which is exactly what that post says... Update your dots with intel procs, ignore everything else except Heroism.

Actually it says to update swpain with just about every procs but don't do the same with vt.

---------- Post added 2012-12-17 at 04:48 PM ----------

No, if you're not gaining any of the haste break points out of it, the dot will do the same amount of damage, just in less time. it's not worth refreshing because it's the same damage per gcd regardless.

If you're at the swp/dp breakpoint, chances are very good that any sort of haste proc at this point will put you over the vt breakpoint, since you only need 2,039 more and most procs these days are a lot more than 2k.

[ThrashMetalFtw]

No, if you're not gaining any of the haste break points out of it, the dot will do the same amount of damage, just in less time. it's not worth refreshing because it's the same damage per gcd regardless.

That was kind of my point. You don't recast DoTs because of getting another breakpoint, you recast them because you want them to tick faster...

The only thing the breakpoints do, is to save a GCD here and there, so going by your logic, you never want to recast anything, since it's a loss of a GCD

[Burchoid]

Theoretically one could clip a dot sooner with more haste, correct? As in, the last tick of DOT damage comes sooner with more haste, but not soon enough to allow for another tick of damage if over 8085 haste.

I'm not sure what point this would serve, other than giving a little more flexibility in timing dot refreshes.

I wonder how 4peice T14 plays into haste and dots... since more time is added to SWP and VT.

[FoodProduct]

I recommend using the addon ForteXorcist for tracking your DoTs, as it will helpfully show the ticks as well as highlight the time between the last two ticks of the DoT. This highlighted time is your target "refresh time."

I only really bother refreshing DoTs earlier than that right after Time Warp/Bloodlust/etc is cast, and right before it ends to net a couple extra ticks (except for movement, in which case I end up spamming SWP).

[Aica]

No, if you're not gaining any of the haste break points out of it, the dot will do the same amount of damage, just in less time. it's not worth refreshing because it's the same damage per gcd regardless.

...so, dots ticking faster over a limited duration isn't an increase in DPS to you?

[soulyouth]

I wonder how 4peice T14 plays into haste and dots... since more time is added to SWP and VT.

I was going to ask about this on H2P when I got 4pc

[Strykie]

Should just gem haste xDxD

[ThrashMetalFtw]

Should just gem haste xDxD

Eh, eh...


No.

[Minoan]

Well, I may swap my 489 thing with 483 if I have mastery on first one and no haste and I've got BiS stats on lower gear(like spirit+haste), but I'm not loosing as much intellect as if I would gem haste, so I'm not gemming more than 2 +300 haste and only if it really matters my haste soft cap, but never else.
Am I correct
It was stated somewhere about a month ago that the most silly way to get 8000haste is go gem for it. So you cannot gem more than 2 gems only if it will help reach the cap, otherwise you're loosing a lot of damage from int. And it may happen to swap from 489 to 483 in that case since you're not losing so much intellect in comparision to haste gain from it.

[Frmercury]

This should answer any questions you have about Haste:
[H2P] Shadow Haste Break Points

[Mogling]

Small side note here there is a special exception with the dot refreshing on Garalon. On that fight the weak points buff will actually update your dot damage dynamically.

[Burchoid]

Small side note here there is a special exception with the dot refreshing on Garalon. On that fight the weak points buff will actually update your dot damage dynamically.

SRSLY? dammit I've been re-doting ><

[Drye]

Should just gem haste xDxD

No, just no. Please don't respond if you are going to give false information. People who dont know better might actually believe you.

[RedFlame]

Essentially, haste has 2 effects on a DoTs damage.
haste increases dps. always. whats important to note, outside of the breakpoints for extra ticks, you don't gain any additional damage from the GCD spent with any increase in haste. you just have the ticks come faster, giving you more damage within a window of time, but you gain 0 overall damage per gcd spent when you hit a DoT with a haste buff. hitting a breakpoint adds a tick to the DoT, thereby increasing the dmg per GCD spent on the DoT.

[Deleted]

Wow. Just wow.

Ok, for those who are clearly confused, imagine the following extreme scenarios:

A) You have 0% tooltip haste (which is actually 100% haste). DOT ticks once every 3 seconds for 3 damage. DOT lasts for infinite amount of time (read never needs to be refreshed). Your dps with this DOT is 1 dps

B) You have 200% tooltip haste (read: 300%). DOT now ticks once every 1 second for 3 damage. DOT lasts for infinite amount of time. Your dps is now 3 dps

C) Now, your dot has a finite length, say 10 seconds. It ticks every 3 seconds for 3 damage per tick. Your dps is 1.

D) Now, your dot lasts for 20 seconds. It ticks every 3 seconds for 3 damage per tick. Your dps is still 1.

The increase in dps from gaining more ticks, like going from scenario C to scenario D is NOT the extra tick itself. It makes no difference to the DOT dps. None. The extra overall dps you see comes from refreshing the DOT slightly less often. This means you save a GCD, which would then be used on a Mind Flay tick most likely. And no, you don't save a GCD with every refresh of the DOT. You save a little bit over time, infact i think it's after around 6 refreshes that you save a GCD which is roughly 100 seconds but somebody else can give the exact numbers. That's an extra Mind Flay tick every minute and 40 seconds, not huge.

DOTs will ALWAYS benefit from haste (as seen in Scenario A and B). Even beyond breakpoints. DOTs benefit from haste because they tick more often. Not for longer, but more often, notice that important distinction between more often and longer! i.e. the DOT frequency increases with haste.

The only exception to the above is DOTs that cannot be refreshed at will and hence will not have a 100% uptime, ever. Examples of these DOTs are Devouring Plague and Combustion. With these DOTs the opposite is true, extra ticks increase the overall damage of the dot that you would not otherwise have and increasing the frequency of these DOTs actually does not increase their damage. it only makes them slightly more "bursty" dps. For Spriests, the real increase in dps at the 8085 breakpoint actually comes slightly before when DP gains an extra tick. HOWEVER these DOTs are often very short tick duration (frequency) i.e. 1 second at 0% haste, so there are many breakpoints for these DOTs that don't require huge jumps in haste rating and the likely hood is that increasing your haste by any half decent amount will give you more ticks.

As for refreshing DOTs, the mechanics are the same as Cata in that buffs to you are applied at the time the DOT lands on the target and will not update dynamically. Debuffs on the target will update the DOT dynamically on a per tick basis.

Edited to say in my examples above I realise it's impossible for a DOT to tick every 3 seconds and last for 10 seconds, but you get the point

[Drye]

Ok, now I get the point, ty.

Lowers the tick duration. Forgot about this, kinda is the main point

So, same tick dmg but faster.
Overall, it will make our rotation faster, so it will increase dmg even if we don't reach the next haste breakpoint.

Anyway, a intellect proc gives more overall dmg I think.
So if I have DoTs on boss that were cast during a haste proc, if next I get a INT proc, I should replace those DoTs anyway.

No, it's actually the exact opposite. Once you reach that haste breakpoint it increases the duration of the dot. This allows for less overall casts of the dot so you gain GCDs used else where. As for reaching the sw breakpoint(w/o 4pc), the dps gain for reaching 8085 is mainly from reaching the DP breakpoint of 8064 haste. The sw pp gain is only around 70 and meeting the DP breakpoint is around a 170 pp gain.

[Deleted]

No, it's actually the exact opposite. Once you reach that haste breakpoint it increases the duration of the dot. This allows for less overall casts of the dot so you gain GCDs used else where. As for reaching the sw breakpoint(w/o 4pc), the dps gain for reaching 8085 is mainly from reaching the DP breakpoint of 8064 haste. The sw pp gain is only around 70 and meeting the DP breakpoint is around a 170 pp gain.

Yeah, that's totally correct. Not sure about the numbers which i guess would change from char to char but that sounds about right. Most of the increase in DPS comes from DP extra tick and not adding ticks to the other 2 of our DOTs, whichever you happen to be adding ticks to depending on 4 set or not.