He's having a discussion...

[Sesshou]

Why doesn't he ask himself if it's good design for a class to be only fun for ganking and boring to death for everything else?

Why is a rogue more fun for ganking? I might have agreed if this was before we were all level 70 during BC because part of the cool thing about rogues is that you didn't see them coming. You know what else you can't see coming? Some one on their epic flying mount... ok technically if you play constantly looking up there is a bit of warning, but totally not the same as vanilla where you could see people coming in on their ground mounts with plenty of time to prepare for it.

[Lazuli]

Because passive damage is boring, rogue finishers haven't meant shit in years... in Cata our fuckin ambushes hit harder than evisc lolwut and let's not forget we've been asking for CP to stack on rogue since the dawn of time. I'm so fucking tired of this retarded redirect fiasco, shadowstep needs to be baseline holy shit how long have we said this, yada yada yada I sound like a broken record, GC's dumb retarded ass knows exactly why rogues are underplayed this is just some kind of publicity stunt pretending he actually cares or something will actually be done. We all know nothing significant will ever come to rogues may as well re-roll and just forget the class exists because every other class can do exactly what a rogue could.

[LilSaihah]

You mean you implement talents which I can see the duct tape on, like Versatility and Anticipation, and expect people to even bother with the class? The absolute pinnacle of rogue decisions is which half-assed bandaid fix you want to the combo point system.

You give warlocks not one, but three seperate UI elements and graphics for each of their specs and you can't even rustle up attaching combo points to the rogue? You've said that's what you want the button to do. Make it actually do it.

Should I bother? We were saying this through all of beta.

[D3athsting]

Greg Street ‏@Ghostcrawler

@EvilAipac Rogue pop has been low for years. Giving them legendaries (!) provided a small bump that is now past.

Could some1 with a twitter account ask him to give an explanation on this? http://wow.joystiq.com/2012/12/11/ar...a-dying-class/

It seems population dropped to lower numbers than it was before legendaries, while wars skyrocketed...

[Wow]

Could some1 with a twitter account ask him to give an explanation on this? http://wow.joystiq.com/2012/12/11/ar...a-dying-class/

It seems population dropped to lower numbers than it was before legendaries, while wars skyrocketed...

He already answered that he said rogue numbers weren't that low. If thats true or not no idea

[D3athsting]

"Rogue will probably have the most changes in 5.2", well let's face it, they didn't give a sh*t at players feedback during whole beta, now that population is dramatically dropping (many reroll, many quit wow) they start to care... when i first saw rogue talents i said to myself "wtf is this shit??", now they realized that too, it only took 8 months, not bad...

[orderofmaken]

I'd like to see some thing interesting done with poisons for assassination; maybe some unique poisons only assassination can use, or a choice at least which provides different gameplay. It's rather dull that poisons are pretty much just applied to your weapon and forgotten about... that is rather dull.

[Deleted]

- Make Slice and Dice a Combat only buff (This is the single most important change that has to be made!)

No, don't.

Just remove it. No class nor spec should have a buff which simply increases white attack damage. I want it replaced with something else, or just make Combat focus on Eviscerate, and instead add new CP-abilities, something that Combat is supposed to focus on.

[D3athsting]

No, don't.

Just remove it. No class nor spec should have a buff which simply increases white attack damage. I want it replaced with something else, or just make Combat focus on Eviscerate, and instead add new CP-abilities, something that Combat is supposed to focus on.

+1
No point to give a haste buff to a class who only has instant skills

[Sesshou]

No, don't.

Just remove it. No class nor spec should have a buff which simply increases white attack damage. I want it replaced with something else, or just make Combat focus on Eviscerate, and instead add new CP-abilities, something that Combat is supposed to focus on.

Yeah honestly, I agree completely. Didn't they change the feral version of SnD (savage roar?) from its cata version of only effecting auto attacks to effecting everything? It was uninteresting for them and it is equally uninteresting for us.

[Wow]

"Rogue will probably have the most changes in 5.2", well let's face it, they didn't give a sh*t at players feedback during whole beta, now that population is dramatically dropping (many reroll, many quit wow) they start to care... when i first saw rogue talents i said to myself "wtf is this shit??", now they realized that too, it only took 8 months, not bad...

The saddest thing to me about our tree is other than lvl 90 tier its the same as what we saw at blizzcon. And then when beta started all rogue nerfs were in place and not one ever changed all beta as if they just got everything just right in alpha lol.

[discoepfeand]

Who cares if pop is low as long as rogues are fun to play and aren't underpowered.

I didn't care that rogues had low pop (lowest or 2nd lowest) in cataclysm - I had fun and did really well in PvP (I had no legendaries or vial, so that wasn't it).

[Magpai]

They're unpopular because 90% of rogue players play rogues for one reason: to gank. And now they can't as easily as in the past.

[D3athsting]

The saddest thing to me about our tree is other than lvl 90 tier its the same as what we saw at blizzcon. And then when beta started all rogue nerfs were in place and not one ever changed all beta as if they just got everything just right in alpha lol.

they wanted to avoid cookie cutter specs, they failed badly for rogue...

[Deleted]

Who cares if pop is low as long as rogues are fun to play and aren't underpowered.

I didn't care that rogues had low pop (lowest or 2nd lowest) in cataclysm - I had fun and did really well in PvP (I had no legendaries or vial, so that wasn't it).

That's kinda the problem, most of us don't think rogues are interesting anymore in comparison to other classes.

[clevin]

My first toon, in late Vanilla, was a rogue. I got him to max level early in BC and raided through Kara with him. My guild wasn't able to keep 25s going so I messed around, PVPed and did some ZA later in TBC. Since then I've levelled him in each xpac but not played him.

Here's why:

1) In late TBC they killed a lot of fun, weird hybrid builds. I could run a shadowstep swords build (I had very nice swords at the time). They started pigeonholing people then and continued to do that rather than letting people play with hybrid builds that fit their style.

2) I discovered that doing ranged DPS was WAY easier than melee. Cleaves, whirlwinds, novas, etc all became non-issues. BC example: On Prince, I had to run out of Shadow Nova unless CloS was up. I had to wind my way back through infernals. As ranged? None of that. Same with the twin bosses in Arcatraz... she'd WW and I'd have to run or die. As ranged? Not an issue.

3) DKs in LK. A strong melee DPS class with new cool toys and if I wanted to gear and spec tank.. I could. And monks now. Tell me again why I'd play a dps only melee class vs one that can do comparable DPS and offers other options if I want to switch roles?

4) I didn't feel I had a niche anymore. I wasn't the light, quick, very high on target DPS toon. Other classes could DPS as well as I - see kitty ferals, DKs and pure ranged DPS. I couldn't play as I wanted to in LK and beyond - my specs were increasingly dictated by Blizzard (see comments above on hybrid builds).

5) For pure DPS my hunter was just as good with far less hassle. For times when I get tired of DPSing, my priest and druid let me do other things as did my DK.

6) DPS style is boring. For example, you always run poisons... there's no case where not doing so and speccing alternate talents is better. So poisons are baseline - yeah, there's some choice about which poison but that's pretty apparent in most cases. Poisons + White damage is increasingly most of the rogue's damage - I don't get to feel any big 'YES' moment by nailing a finisher. Mobility isn't any different than 6 years ago and is worse off in comparison to other classes.

7) They don't seem to care. I get that no one's perfect, but a lot of the comments made here and elsewhere have been made since LK beta. Nothing's changed. The rogue forums in LK beta never saw blue updates... and apparently that's continued to the present day.

So, if the issues mount, they don't care (as evidenced by the lack of changes), encounters are harder as melee dps and I can have fun playing other classes... why would I play my rogue again?

PS: One more, a big one for me... post BC, CC and other control issues became a non-factor so DPS became just about how much damage you could do. A lot of the fun of being a rogue in PVE in TBC was that you had a lot of tools that helped control situations. One of my fave WoW moments was when some friends and I accidentally overpulled in H Shattered Halls... we had 14 of the gauntlet mobs. Everyone was pretty good and I was able to CC using Blind,Vanish + CS, etc and do more than just be a mindless DPS bot. Starting in LK a lot of that went away. That meant that as long as I pulled comparable numbers on a ranged toon I might as well play ranged. Same numbers, less hassle.

[Deleted]

Because the class as a whole is uninteresting, uninspiring, and dull; and apart from results, doesn't net the player any satisfaction?

Pretty much this. Rogue as a class just doesn't leave a lasting impression. (This is personal :P.) Also other melee just have the advantage of being able to pop same/more dps but also have raid utility's. And most of them have the priviledge of an offspec wich isn't the same role and has a completly different playstyle wich makes it allot more interesting.

[Deleted]

Hey guys, while i agree with some, more then with others on "what the rogue class needs", there`s something that all of u seem to agree upon - combo points on the rogue, not his targets, and shadowstep and/or prep baselined. While i strongly agree with the later, i wouldn`t rly want to see combo points on the rogue (this will probably differ on every rogues playstyle/point of view).

As far as i see, combo points in a rogues play style represent (for me at least) injuries, dents, wounds (w/e u want to call them) done to your target via your abilities and finishers (again in my mind) represent the rogue connecting these dots/wounds, in a special sequence (forming a special symbol -a big badass wound xD) for each finisher (this could be nicely implemented to give each finisher a different flashy effect, because atm they are pretty dull like 90% of our toolkit). Thus from my point of view combo points being on the rogue do not represent what i think they should and would contradict with my ideea of the rogue style. What they could do, to still keep CP`s as they are, would be to make redirect have no CD and replace its current talent with an other PvP`ish orientated skill (since yes, our talent tree is pretty uninteresing).

What i think they should do, and its been said by everyone over and over again, but i`ll say it again, is:
-reduce our passive dmg and improve our active one;
-take the time to make our toolkit more shiny (not stronger!)- since most abilities barely have effects (or barely visible ones).
-some more utility/mobility like the "rogue" class implies.
-find a way to make rogues distinct from other classes and thus more appealing to play (as they were back in the days) - it aggravates me to hell seeing our toolkit being handed over to other classes, during the past 4 years, like "rouge" was a 4th spec from which everyone could pick what they wanted. Atm the only things we don`t share with others are Smoke bomb, Vanish and KS. With how things are going now, i won`t be surprised to see DK`s stealthing around in the next xpac.

[Hitei]

+1
No point to give a haste buff to a class who only has instant skills

SnD has a pretty significant damage factor.

Honestly I disagree that SnD should be removed from the game entirely, (or rather, turned into a passive buff.)

SnD always felt solid as part of Combat's rotation, and I think it's something that should stay part of combat, as the earlier poster said.
But it definitely shouldn't be part of the sub or mut rotation. This actually (as the poster also said) is one of the biggest problems with rogues right now. Rupture and SnD should not be part of the rotations of all three specs.

Combat should be keeping SnD up.
Mut should be keeping Rupture up.
Sub should be keeping recup, up for energy regen.

This makes combat feel like a more fluid swashbuckler, mut feel like a poison and bleed wielding DoT melee, and Sub feel like a more hard hitting backstabbing physical damage dealer.

This is how the three rogue specs should be. Not just three different combo point generators working with the same finishers.

Of course, this is all opinion.

[Polarthief]

Looks like he's been high for 8 months and didn't notice billions of threads of concerns complaints about rogue across all boards since beta release...

He barely noticed the L90 Mage talents and other issues too that have yet to see even a tweak this late in.

And the DPS balancing issue, like how Hunters and Boomkins are garbage.

And the PvP balancing issues which he's slowly taking care of in an awful fashion.



... Why is he still the lead dev?