(PVP) Which new talents will you be taking up. 5.2

[Syning]

With the burst of speed being changed, it's looking really good to be honest. Mix that in with prep and having double cloak and vanish, it will be amazing. Plus it's only 30 energy too with no type of cooldown.

Shadowstep is just shadowstep I guess. I don't think anything has been done to it (correct me if I am wrong).

Which will you rogues be taking?

[theherecy]

Nobody should underestimate cloak and dagger in PVP. for BG's you can keep 8 people CC'd within a 30 yard range, so essentially any small team, this will probably be game changing. Arena will yield similar results. 2v2's you can perma-stun the other guy for 8 seconds while still outputting strong burst and regardless of whether he uses trinkets or not.

Roll with a few guildies in a BG and you're gonna love that ability. Not to be completely single minded though BOS looks real good now, good for staying on the hunter or frostmage, etc.

[billtimbob]

Same exact talents as I have now. None of the other buffs are strong enough to make me use them. Only changes in talents I'll see is a small buff to Nerve Strike and small nerf to Shadow Focus.

Nobody should underestimate cloak and dagger in PVP. for BG's you can keep 8 people CC'd within a 30 yard range, so essentially any small team, this will probably be game changing. Arena will yield similar results. 2v2's you can perma-stun the other guy for 8 seconds while still outputting strong burst and regardless of whether he uses trinkets or not.

1 root/disarm/CC and you can't do any of that. And then you have no mobility for the next 52 seconds.

[Deleted]

Seems to me that Marked for Death will be stronger for Assa in PvE than Anticipation, but could be wrong. Hopefully its not on the GCD.

[Sesshou]

Seems to me that Marked for Death will be stronger for Assa in PvE than Anticipation, but could be wrong. Hopefully its not on the GCD.

I'm skeptical on that. No anticipation means back to 4cp finishers and eating cps (because even if you just finish with 4, mut at 3 will still eat some cp). 1 missed RS proc is a little less than half a mut which is guaranteed at least 2 cp. I don't really think MfD would get you more usable combo points, and then theres also how anticipation lets you pool for better uptimes.

That said, it looks to be situationally useful so long as the 'when the target dies' part works properly. The glyph to refresh snd/recup doesn't work on certain adds in raid encounters last I heard, so this might not either. However, if it works, MfD would be really good for something like elegon.

[Deleted]

Seems to me that Marked for Death will be stronger for Assa in PvE than Anticipation, but could be wrong. Hopefully its not on the GCD.

I'm not too sure.
Due to the horrendous Shadow Blades, capping HEAVILY on combo points or energy becomes impossible to avoid, unless you can store spare combo points. I consistently have 10 combo points + Envenom running, while Shadow Blades is up. More so if we have Bloodlust running as well. Never mind the 4vs5 combo point issue.

The question you should ask yourself is this; does Assassination actually need it? Whenever a target dies, you should be rewarded with additional energy from Venomous Wounds. While this doesn't work every time, on every fight, it should generally be able to sufficiently aid you in target swapping. It's a horrible mechanic, I'll give you that, and it could use some fine-tuning, but nonetheless, it still works... Now and then...

[theherecy]

Same exact talents as I have now. None of the other buffs are strong enough to make me use them. Only changes in talents I'll see is a small buff to Nerve Strike and small nerf to Shadow Focus.



1 root/disarm/CC and you can't do any of that. And then you have no mobility for the next 52 seconds.

I'm not debating that, I knew the consequences immediately, but the trick is to keep them from doing that to you in the first place. Stay in stealth and open with cheap shot, from there you can teleport around the place. Disarms, etc usally require melee range and a well executed cheap shot spree will keep things locked down.

And I agree to the above, no way in hell that MFD will beat anticipation, best case scenario you will be 4CP finishing on everything, worst case wasting CPS all over the shop. On SB alone you would either waste 1-2CP each time or settle or 3CP finishers...

Now sub works extremely well with that!

[Raldazzar]

Nobody should underestimate cloak and dagger in PVP. for BG's you can keep 8 people CC'd within a 30 yard range, so essentially any small team, this will probably be game changing. Arena will yield similar results. 2v2's you can perma-stun the other guy for 8 seconds while still outputting strong burst and regardless of whether he uses trinkets or not.

Roll with a few guildies in a BG and you're gonna love that ability. Not to be completely single minded though BOS looks real good now, good for staying on the hunter or frostmage, etc.

I dont understand why people are obsessed with cloak and dagger..

1, we arent getting it afaik, hit and run is the option.
2, shadowstep is still better.

there is only 4 buffs a rogue is getting.

1, +40 more energy on 4 set. this has been a long time coming. makes our opening burst bursty again.
2, shuriken toss making auto attacks ranged - this is going to help greatly with our mobility issues. if im being kited, toss and i can still keep up moderate pressure on my target.
3, prep baseline .. obvious
4, Nerve strike buff, making it better then combat readiness imo.

burst of speed looks good on paper but in reality, its not. all it does is clear snares..

[Susej]

PvP is in the tittle yet you guys still talk about PvE <3

[theherecy]

I dont understand why people are obsessed with cloak and dagger..

1, we arent getting it afaik, hit and run is the option.
2, shadowstep is still better.

there is only 4 buffs a rogue is getting.

1, +40 more energy on 4 set. this has been a long time coming. makes our opening burst bursty again.
2, shuriken toss making auto attacks ranged - this is going to help greatly with our mobility issues. if im being kited, toss and i can still keep up moderate pressure on my target.
3, prep baseline .. obvious
4, Nerve strike buff, making it better then combat readiness imo.

burst of speed looks good on paper but in reality, its not. all it does is clear snares..

Nobody is obsessed, I'm saying people should think about it. In my 2v2's its all about bursting and I can usually get 1 SS of before the fight is over. Cloak and dagger provides extremely good control if used correctly; that's why we're talking about it.

If you're done making sweeping statements you can leave this conversation now.

[Raldazzar]

again. its not even something in the game as far as we can tell.. hit and run is in the gamefiles. so it makes sense to discuss that.

finished being passive aggressive now? god your life must suck..

the key thing is rogues AND non rogues overreacting to changes which we havent even tried out extensively yet on PTR... going zomg rogues so op. and its that kind of stupidity, which led to the situation we had in mop in the first place.

[theherecy]

again. its not even something in the game as far as we can tell.. hit and run is in the gamefiles. so it makes sense to discuss that.

finished being passive aggressive now? god your life must suck..

the key thing is rogues AND non rogues overreacting to changes which we havent even tried out extensively yet on PTR... going zomg rogues so op. and its that kind of stupidity, which led to the situation we had in mop in the first place.

We're all talking about the patch notes provided by blizzard. If you don't think they're legit at all then don't discuss it; nobody is forcing you here. Now please come up with something productive.

[Raldazzar]

most up to date data mined from ptr says hit and run. you can keep denying it if you like, it is what it is. wind your neck in trying to trollbait


Infracted for multiple posts

[Neazy]

-Baseline Prep has been needed for a long time. Glad it's here.

-Marked for Death is eh for sub. You get tons of combo points with HaT and Premed anyway. Assuming MfD doesn't break stealth, I guess you could use it to set up a recup or SnD before you open. Combat would probably make better use of this.

-Cloak and Dagger is nice for sub. It basically gives you a permanent Shadowstep while you're dancing. Pretty shitty for the other specs since Vanish already breaks snares and you can only use those moves when you restealth. Combine with Subterfuge and you can Cheap Shot 3 players at once.

-Burst of Speed buff is very nice. Mutilate rogues do tons of passive damage and with this talent than can stay on someone nearly full time. Sub and combat are more about bursting during cooldowns so they're probably better off with the other options to ensure they can stay on target during their burst window.

-Vigor buff is interesting. Looks like it will make Shadow Dance a lot more deadly. Need to see how this one plays out but a buff is a buff so I can't complain.

-Nerve Strike buff is very, very nice. I have a feeling this one will get nerfed. Remember arms warriors in WotLK when they had a talent like this? It didn't last very long.

-Deadly Throw buff is solid but will be overlooked unless Nerve Strike is brought down to mortal levels.

-Shuriken Toss change could be a nerf if it doesn't go back to melee attacks once you get in melee range.

Overall, good buffs. Expect most of them to stick except for Nerve Strike.

[theherecy]

most up to date data mined from ptr says hit and run. you can keep denying it if you like, it is what it is. wind your neck in trying to trollbait

Is there something wrong with you? I've already said regardless of what data mining has come up with we're discussing what the ptr notes have described. Seriously I'm not going to say this again...

Infracted for multiple posts

[Verain]

While hit and run was datamined (and is on the PTR notes even now), Blizzard obviously chose NOT to put that in the official notes. I actually hoped hit and run would be real- cloak and dagger seems to be "you are an unpeelable stunbot for 8 seconds out of every minute, pssst btw you are def. sub lol". That's just avatar again, and it seems it will be a mix of too powerful when up and not around when down. But, whatever, I'm fine with it too if they go live with it.


Prep change is amazing. Best possible thing!

The autoattack shuriken thing will really help, because getting away from a rogue at low health will be a lot more like getting away from a pally or DK with low health- you could still get your face owned off.

So, which will I be taking?


First tier I probably still run shadow focus in arenas, but subterfuge is what I really want to spec because it kind of turns vanish into a minibubble. My big gripe is honestly buttons- when I'm stealthed, my openers come up. I don't have, like, hemo in there, and 60 energy is sooooo much for ambush. So I need to redo *something* to make good use of subterfuge- right now I can only do the "here's a good control cycle from full" with it. So probably sticking with the nerfed shadow focus.

Second tier I'm running Nerve Strike. I run that now, and I'm convinced it's better. It is a very disruptive talent at the moment, and I predicted it would be NERFED- not buffed!

Third tier I still trust elusiveness. I assume that the initial favoritism over leeching has mostly died down in pvp by now- you can see that it's frigging terrible because it never heals you when you need it. PvE talent only. Cheat Death I will continue to take versus certain special situations, but elusiveness seems to be generally very strong.

Fourth tier as now depends on what I'm up against. How good is cloak and dagger? If it breaks roots, I think I'll be taking it. It certainly isn't "stun everyone in 30 yards for 8 seconds" like someone above mentioned (that guy is in every thread with a different name ,complaining about how the infinite energy rogues on his private server aren't gonna be fair with that change...). If it breaks roots, this talent is too strong. Simply put, you'll hammer opener after opener and will need serious counters to get through your stuff.

But versus double melee, the new burst will probably be better (right now it has game against mages, but is 100% losing that). If cloak isn't as OP as we think, shadowstep will remain the go-to mobility trick versus anything with a caster.

I favor paralytic on live, changing off if I won't have much uptime (then I normally go with prey). I don't find any use for dirty tricks in group pvp, it's a solo stunt only (and I like paralytic there for coolness). The free gouge probably will help rogues who don't run with a dot class in arena like I do, so I can't really speak to that much.

Final tier will remain ST in pvp for me. Anticipation's trick is entirely subsumed by marked for death, which just GIVES you the combo points straight up, so I suspect that it will have some use. I will probably take it versus double melee or trip dps, because honestly, it makes a kidney shot almost as good as everyone else's stuns, once a minute.

[theherecy]

Fourth tier as now depends on what I'm up against. How good is cloak and dagger? If it breaks roots, I think I'll be taking it. It certainly isn't "stun everyone in 30 yards for 8 seconds" like someone above mentioned (that guy is in every thread with a different name ,complaining about how the infinite energy rogues on his private server aren't gonna be fair with that change...). If it breaks roots, this talent is too strong. Simply put, you'll hammer opener after opener and will need serious counters to get through your stuff.

Not sure if this was aimed at me, as I seem to be the only one who's addressed it. If so, re-read what I said. I discussed how it could be used to cc large groups and utilised with prey on the weak can really turn the tide on things OR that in arena could be put to use to perma-stun someone for ~8 seconds. I think it's definitely a strong ability and will be very PUG-friendly but I don't think it will find its place in every situation. I still think I would take the other two in most situations.

One thing to note this ability is extemely sub-friendly which is worrying are we seeing another subterfuge in the making, not good....

[discoepfeand]

Third tier I still trust elusiveness. I assume that the initial favoritism over leeching has mostly died down in pvp by now- you can see that it's frigging terrible because it never heals you when you need it. PvE talent only. Cheat Death I will continue to take versus certain special situations, but elusiveness seems to be generally very strong.

Do you glyph elusiveness? It seems like there are 4 "really good" major glyphs for sub pvp -

garrote (mandatory)
blind (close to mandatory)
cheapshot (really good)
feint (really good)

Others such as as +2 sec smoke aren't bad as well, but those 4 in particular seem to be the ones I think about most.

[Wow]

-Shuriken Toss change could be a nerf if it doesn't go back to melee attacks once you get in melee range.

Your auto attacks become shadow dmg with the Shuriken buff Shuriken Toss. This will be like a mini shadow blades but with a 30yard range. A lesser know fact when shadow blades replaces auto attack its crits proc hat, this is the same thing for the new toss which means sub will proc combo points from auto attack from 30 yards. This is something will want in melee range if its possible.

[Verain]

whooooooooooooo

Ok, that also means combat has a good way around armor!

I assume the value of the autoattacks is chosen to be not an increase in pve? Or a very minor one, perhaps competitive with anticipation?



It will presumably not be worth having magic damage in melee versus cloth, but will presumably be very good versus....

Just... wow. That really sounds too good to be true.