RNG forcing me to go DW.

[Izonami]

BT is supposedly the best way to go for DW, but man is it annoying to use versus RE. Hell, the entire DW 'rotation' is annoying but I've basically given up on Blizzard making it so that you don't need to game things.

[Lovestar]

BT is supposedly the best way to go for DW, but man is it annoying to use versus RE. Hell, the entire DW 'rotation' is annoying but I've basically given up on Blizzard making it so that you don't need to game things.

It's funny. GC has said multiple times that the team "regrets" the Rune system because of how "complicated" it became. It was one of his justifications for simplifying Monk Dark/Light Force into Combo Points 2: Electric Comboloo.

Then they seemingly deliberately add as many insane convolutions as possible to the Rune system every xpac.

[DakonBlackblade]

It's funny. GC has said multiple times that the team "regrets" the Rune system because of how "complicated" it became. It was one of his justifications for simplifying Monk Dark/Light Force into Combo Points 2: Electric Comboloo.

Then they seemingly deliberately add as many insane convolutions as possible to the Rune system every xpac.

Do you remember the original idea/concept for the rune system ? It was suposed ot be something youd atach to your weapon (which would be called a runebalde and would eb a separate and DK specific weapon type) and that would give you some controll on what resources you wanted to have, like you could have 6 blood runes and none of the others if you wanted or somethign like that. This concept never made live and I dont think it even made the beta/test realms, imagine how convoluted the system would be if they ahd stuck to the original idea lol.

[Schizoide]

Right, 2H frost doesn't need to game RE, since every rune can be used to Obliterate and that's what 2H wants to do.

DW does game RE against unholy runes. It's annoying and I hate it, but it is pretty easy to do-- you just leave one Unholy rune unused, and consume the other one with an Obliterate, Plague Strike (if BP is about to run out) or DnD (with >1 target in range).

In order for Blood Tap to outdamage gamed RE for DW frost, you need to follow a fairly intricate priority. I honestly feel that most players do themselves a disservice speccing into BT as DW frost. They should be gaming RE.

[Lovestar]

Do you remember the original idea/concept for the rune system ? It was suposed ot be something youd atach to your weapon (which would be called a runebalde and would eb a separate and DK specific weapon type) and that would give you some controll on what resources you wanted to have, like you could have 6 blood runes and none of the others if you wanted or somethign like that.

Wow. I do actually remember that, now that you bring it up. You could choose basically any combination of Runes, I think, to make your total of 6.

So you could run 6 Blood or 1B 4F 2U or 3U 3F ... I'd kind of like to play around with that internally, if only for fun, just to see what sort of insane combination ended up being declared top DPS. ^^

or DnD (with >1 target in range).

I thought DW dumps with DnD even on 1 target if it sits the full duration. Did that change?

[kaelleria]

If you can't handle unmacro'd BT, just macro it to FS. It still makes DW way smoother and is roughly on equal ground with RE if not better just for the sheer fact things feel smoother...

As for the rune system... Its the only thing that makes DKs interesting right now.

[devilminion]

it still does.

[Schizoide]

If you can't handle unmacro'd BT, just macro it to FS. It still makes DW way smoother and is roughly on equal ground with RE if not better just for the sheer fact things feel smoother...

BT macroed to FS is markedly inferior to gamed RE for DW frost. If you really don't want to game RE, go for it. But it's a tradeoff, like everything else.

[kaelleria]

Actually... macro'd blood tap is approximately a 2000 dps loss vs unmacro'd bt which still ultimately is still about 1700 dps higher than with runic empowerment in bis gear... But hey who's counting.

[Schizoide]

I'm counting!

I can't make it work using the most recent DW T14H profile as it's been exhaustively polished for Blood Tap. In that profile, RE and macroed BT are basically equal; a 176 DPS difference and the margin for error is 57 DPS.

DW Frost default T14H profile using BT: 118397
DW Frost T14H with "macroed" Blood Tap: 117328
DW Frost RE: 117152

However, going back to a simpler time and using the old RE profile:

http://code.google.com/p/simulationc...H.simc?r=14318

I show

DW Frost old profile macroed BT: 114341
DW Frost old profile RE: 114892

At any rate, it's definitely closer than I thought it was, thanks for pointing me in a different direction.

[kaelleria]

The Bis profile simc is using is still incorrect. 2x kilrak is a dps decrease vs kilrak + scim due to some nifty reforges we can get with the extra hit.

With the "true bis" gear profile I have the following:
Unmacro'd BT - 119235
Macro'd BT - 117240
RE - 115550

Which profile are you using for an updated RE profile? I can't seem to get that past 115.5k dps

[Schizoide]

DW Frost default T14H profile: 118446
DW Frost T14H with "macroed" Blood Tap: 117414
DW Frost RE: 117139

actions=auto_attack
actions+=/pillar_of_frost
actions+=/mogu_power_potion,if=target.time_to_die<=30|(target.time_to_die<=60&buff.pillar_of_frost.u p)
actions+=/empower_rune_weapon,if=target.time_to_die<=60&(buff.mogu_power_potion.up|buff.golemblood_p otion.up)
actions+=/use_item,name=gauntlets_of_the_lost_catacomb,if=buff.pillar_of_frost.up
actions+=/blood_fury
actions+=/raise_dead
actions+=/blood_tap,if=talent.blood_tap.enabled&buff.blood_charge.stack>4
actions+=/frost_strike,if=buff.killing_machine.react|runic_power>88
actions+=/plague_leech,if=talent.plague_leech.enabled&(dot.blood_plague.remains<3|dot.frost_fever.re mains<3|cooldown.outbreak.remains<1)
actions+=/outbreak,if=dot.frost_fever.remains<3|dot.blood_plague.remains<3
actions+=/unholy_blight,if=talent.unholy_blight.enabled&(dot.frost_fever.remains<3|dot.blood_plague. remains<3)
actions+=/soul_reaper,if=target.health.pct-3*(target.health.pct%target.time_to_die)<=35
actions+=/howling_blast,if=!dot.frost_fever.ticking
actions+=/plague_strike,if=!dot.blood_plague.ticking
actions+=/howling_blast,if=buff.rime.react
actions+=/frost_strike,if=runic_power>76
actions+=/obliterate,if=unholy>1
actions+=/howling_blast,if=death>1|frost>1
actions+=/horn_of_winter
actions+=/obliterate,if=unholy>0
actions+=/howling_blast
actions+=/frost_strike,if=talent.runic_empowerment.enabled&(frost=0|blood=0)
actions+=/frost_strike,if=talent.runic_corruption.enabled&buff.runic_corruption.down
actions+=/death_and_decay
actions+=/frost_strike,if=runic_power>=40
actions+=/empower_rune_weapon

Interestingly, commenting out

actions+=/obliterate,if=unholy>0

is a DPS loss with RE. I don't quite know why. That's why I went back to the old RE profile in my previous post.

Anyway, it's definitely making me rethink using macroed blood tap for DW frost. I just can't account for why macroed BT is equivalent to RE, since it's slightly less efficient baseline.

[kaelleria]

With RE you're always sitting on a rune.. with BT you're always using your runes. That leads to more oblits. In addition to that even with macro'd bt, you can still bank charges past 5 as there times during fights where you won't have every rune on CD.

[Schizoide]

No, actually. You're sitting on one rune, but only one rune per type regens at a time so that's perfectly OK.

As you can see, the "macroed BT" action list doesn't bank BT charges. It uses them as soon as it hits 5.

[rap87]

It's really not that difficult guys, I will agree on the default UI I would have no damn idea how to do it. But if you get something like DDR, showing you in a small box all your runes 3x2 side by side and shows you the speed at which they are filling up this is a good start. Then just set up a weak aura to alert you to win you have enough for a BT, another one when your close to the next, and another one when your Capped. You should be able to drain your runes (which you see in the box in front of you), FS away, get your Weak Aura to pop up and then know you can hit BT to fill up a rune and bam...

I don't know I personally love the hell out of the Rune System/Power, I've played a rogue, and a paladin etc, if you want something a bit more simpler it is available in other melee classes, the DK is great as being unique...my only gripe is you do need a decent Rune Addon to play it well. But DK's as the Hero class were intended for people who had been around the WoW block before, they should have been prepared for addons and different power sources.

I personally find BT more predictable and easy to get what you want out of it when you want, particularly during SR over RE. It's really easy and intuitive once you get a good UI set up for it. Add in PL and you can almost keep up a full spam rotation with FS with very very little Dead Zones. Flurry of Ice and Death baby.

[kaelleria]

What I'm saying... if you don't have a fully depleted rune, you cannot use blood tap. It will bank the BT charge because its not usable. This happens quite often in the beginning of fights even with macro'd BT.

[Schizoide]

What I'm saying... if you don't have a fully depleted rune, you cannot use blood tap. It will bank the BT charge because its not usable. This happens quite often in the beginning of fights even with macro'd BT.

I can't believe that's true. It takes 3 RP abilities to generate 6 charges of Blood Tap. It costs minimum 20 runic power to generate 2 Blood Charges, and that means you just spent 2 runes. The only time you don't have any fully depleted runes is when you lack time on target, and that's really a PvP concern because frost can generate RP (and consume, at less efficiency) at range.

[kaelleria]

Or when you use ERW and or you're going to cap out on RP....

[Schizoide]

If you time ERW poorly, sure. I guess.

[rap87]

What I'm saying... if you don't have a fully depleted rune, you cannot use blood tap. It will bank the BT charge because its not usable. This happens quite often in the beginning of fights even with macro'd BT.

Well, you shouldn't be macroing it. And being that you should be going for depleting your runes with a cap of 12, if you have an indicator showing you when you have 1 charge to use, 1 that shows in 2 strikes you are capped, and another showing you are capped, you should be able to rapid fire off BT without ever wasting it. Many times during high haste situations I will be using BT almost back to back because I've gotten high charges....and this is great when I have 0 runes it avoids any Dead Zones...

ERW with DW Frost is interesting and seems to be a bit more tricky to use just because you can really go for such a long time without deadzones and not needing it, and doing it too early can cap you quick. I suggest situations where you are having to slow down with 40 runic power and slow rune regen as a good time, or if you didn't have lust in the begin get to where all your runes just went on recharge and you have maybe 40/50 runic power then use it. But it usually has to be really quick for DW or you can risk overcapping or wasting part of it.