Affliction - why so high on meters?

[Deleted]

Nah, mages were nothing special in firelands, except for Baleroc and Alysrazor and the latter is just gimmick. Mages had no mobility and AoE, and arcane was balanced around that, so they got to shine on the one fight where no movement or AoE was needed. Even then warriors were better before the mass influx of DTRs.

Mages also appeared to be on a nice place on logs and stats during 4.0, even though the class sucked beyond comprehension then, because of RNG spikes and occasional RNG Combustion whorage. Fire logs in cata were really inconclusive.

Mages had a very good single target dps and fire mages totally dominated Alysrazor. Mages were strong, but they had the weaknesses of arcane, meaning there were weak fights like ragnaros.

With fire becoming strong on single target, everything changed. Suddenly they had nearly no weakness, performed well on every fight.

That's the problem of Affli. A multidotting specc with high mobility and extremely high single target dps - this cannot work. Just as fire cannot work when they have the same single target dps like arcane.

http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Blade_Lor...00000000000000

That's a single target fight, compared to the other multidot and high mobility casters. As anyone can see, why is there a so big difference between speccs that roll for about the same gear, have the same role, have the same strength (multidotting, high mobility), high surviability (at least wls and shadows).

I uderstand if demo or destro had a high single target dps to compensate for their lack of multidotting and monility. But why Affliction?

[Rustjive]

1. inaccurate to look at top 100; rather look at All Parses (multiple reasons).

Besides all the other issues with using 'All parses', it under-represents one specific class - Mages. Top mages have mostly all switched to Arcane, but within All Parses, there are a significant number of players still clinging to Fire. These Mages not switching over lowers the player pool significantly for Arcane.

As for every other spec comparison, you can only look at the top spec for a class. Player skill and the size of the sample dominates Raidbots far more than spec performance does - for the latter, you should just look at sims to determine the gap between best and worst specs. An easy example of this 'player sample' effect is Vizier 25H: People say that Affliction is so much better than all other specs (when in fact Demo should be very decent for it) - well, look at the sample size: Affliction (679), Demonology (88). Despite this gap in overall player skill (almost 600 players worth), Demonology is only behind by 4k on that fight.

Hybrids do seem to need a buff if the tax no longer exists (which I am actually sort of doubting now - fights this tier value comps that have hybrids much more than previous tiers), but versus any other pure Affliction is no more than 8% better than other pures, and it should be even less post GoSac nerf.

[MaximusRex]

GoSac is the real outlier for Affliction, it is being adjusted, and if that isn't sufficient it will be adjusted further. That whole talent tier is bad because there is no real choice depending on your spec currently. That is something that has to be brought in line.

The whole move to MG and de-emphasizing DoT damage has ruined Aff PvP, so thanks everyone who wanted Aff to use a channeled filler, and I don't think it can be fixed this expansion since the type of mechanics changes required are outside what they would usually be willing to do, and carry a big risk of really making Aff OP in PvE.

If anything Aff in PvE is the standard they should be seeking with all classes/DPS specs where even on our "weak" fights we aren't that weak that we drop to the bottom, but on a fight by fight basis other specs have a lot more volatility.

The one thing those who are arguing for larger nerfs seem to be doing is only comparing us to other casters, not other DPS specs. This isn't how Blizzard balances. There is no Hybrid tax anymore, there is no utility tax, there is no ranged DPS tax. In an ideal world all DPS specs should be about equal in DPS. Aff doesn't win every fight, so its not really OP and doesn't really need major adjustment.

[lolo855]

velde :> you do not understand the concept of balance. If one class is doing 20% more damage than you are: what the hell are you doing in this raid playing this class? Why are we not stacking this class? Why should I have to rerol and play this class to stay in my raid?

If there is no balance there is class stacking, its how its always been done, even this tier, a massive amount of guilds stacked mages/locks to clean this tier. You would have been lucky to be there as a SP, and even more so as an Esham. Sure skill is important but at some point, all your players are playing the class at nearly 100% of its capacities and you then see gaps, you eliminate gaps by eliminating the bad class.

The fact that there is absolutely no warlock stacking proves how not OP warlocks are.

They are doing great. and they should stay where they are.

And there are in no way 20% ahead of everyone rofl, your just making stuff up. They have their strong fights and they have their weaker fights. but there in no way destroying meters like you pretend they are.

It really not worth taking more then 1 or two warlocks in raids, if you got one for health stones, there are other classes who are way more usefull, and bring a lot more to the raid.

[whi]

The minor nerf to Sacrifice should bring the spec in line to where it stands with the other Grimoire talents

What do you base that "should" on? All the estimates here say it's a ~3% overall nerf at best and that changes nothing.

Furthermore i'm aware what the grimoire comparison results on ej would suggests, but as far as my own sims go it seems that sac outscaled other grimoires for destro aswell(106.3 vs 103.3 vs 102.6, +- optimal reforges/gems/enchants), which even though warrants this nerf too won't bring the specs closer by any meaningful amount.

[nightfalls]

What do you base that "should" on? All the estimates here say it's a ~3% overall nerf at best and that changes nothing.

"Best" is pretty subjective. And it doesn't change "nothing," it's a 3% (possibly more) nerf.

By that logic, I should nerf other specs by 3% changing nothing, then another 3% changing nothing, then another 10% (hardly more than 3%), etc. And nothing would remain changed, so I should just put a 20% nerf in after the fact.

[whi]

I know being nerfed ain't fun, but you might want to actually try and read what context it was said in, you know, that quote above my text? Or have i wrongly assumed i'm talking with inteligent human beings here? :|

[Deleted]

Its a less then 3% nerf, and this nerf will not affect them on multi doting/aoe situation. No this nerf is clearly not enough, locks need to be nerf by rougly 10-12% on single target to be brought in line with the overall classes, and to lolol855, no I did not imagine it, locks do 20% more dmg than most classes on single target. The only thing that changes is the place of the second dps when you are either in a relatively light movement fight or heavy movement. In either case locks are first. They are not bothered by something as mundane, like movement.

OFC I am not saying they always have 20% more damage, but in too many situation they pull ahead, and by too much. God, the 3 multi doting specs were nerf in t11 for even less dmg difference. Affli will be nerf, and even if they get nerf by too much you still have 2 other viable spec(destro is not the last dps spec atm, by far).

[Deleted]

Its a less then 3% nerf, and this nerf will not affect them on multi doting/aoe situation. No this nerf is clearly not enough, locks need to be nerf by rougly 10-12% on single target to be brought in line with the overall classes, and to lolol855, no I did not imagine it, locks do 20% more dmg than most classes on single target. The only thing that changes is the place of the second dps when you are either in a relatively light movement fight or heavy movement. In either case locks are first. They are not bothered by something as mundane, like movement.

OFC I am not saying they always have 20% more damage, but in too many situation they pull ahead, and by too much. God, the 3 multi doting specs were nerf in t11 for even less dmg difference. Affli will be nerf, and even if they get nerf by too much you still have 2 other viable spec(destro is not the last dps spec atm, by far).

How much do people suck that warlocks do 20%(!!!) more dmg ON SINGLE TARGET?

[nightfalls]

and even if they get nerf by too much you still have 2 other viable spec(destro is not the last dps spec atm, by far).

And so it begins, then obviously the types such as you will cry about Demo, and complain for it to be "brought in line" ("line" meaning the bottom line), then destruction is "good" since it sucks, so you don't care. Then we end up with stuff like T13, where shadow was beating 3 pure DPS specs on a class... combined. But I guess you didn't complain back then, did you.

Face it, as an upside to playing a hybrid class, you get raid cooldowns which we could only dream of using (not to mention other QoL improvements). Now I think Shadow is a little low and there have been and probably will be buffs, but there is a downside to playing a hybrid class which you can't admit to having:

You only get 1 DPS spec so it probably won't be best in all situations (they are balanced for patchwerk), and since you are so powerful in PvP atm, that puts a damper. Affliction by contrast is one of the worst PvP specs in the game right now, obviously your knee-jerk 80% nerf isn't going to help that very much.

How much do people suck that warlocks do 20%(!!!) more dmg ON SINGLE TARGET?

This.

Single-target patchwerk sims have affliction 4% of the next non-mage spec (fury). That gap is being nerfed in 5.2 "per request." 20% just means a bad player. They are 17.4% ahead of shadow which is the worst DPS class and your class. And I like how instead of thinking how to fix shadow without negatively affecting PvP (or hybrid healing), you instead scapegoat and strawman the higher classes and want them dragged down to your level without compensation for their drawbacks (such as PvP).


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Either way, I think there's two different types of people in this thread:

1) People, like me, who accept that there may be adjustments coming and who are happy that the developers are taking time to make sure we stay in a good position in 5.2, instead of knee-jerk, blanket nerfing the class far to the other extreme as has been done in the past.

2) The people who are crying for a class to be literally nerfed into the ground without any thought or regard to balance, whatsoever, because they are pissed that their own class/spec isn't top of the meters, and think it will make them feel better.

[Deleted]

Its no use having a discussion with guys like that, 20% dmg is currently the difference between the top and the botom, and no SP is not the last on single target(thought not far off) you got quite a few number there(arms/frost/esham/sp/sub and Im sure im forgeting some). And if you don't believe me when there is such a gap, I'm sorry but I will have to say you got 0 raiding xp. Locks destroy every one else on zorloc/tayak/empress/unsok. That's 4 fights out 6 in just one instance, And your demono spec is far from shabby on Meljarak. I will admit affli isn't top on Leishi, but from 16 fights, one were affli are underperforming(and demono isn't btw), with a huge advantage over anyone when movement is involved, never really bothered by the slow KJC do. Seriously are you guys that bad at playing your locks? Coz it took me 5 minuts to beat everyone but our main locks in my raid when there was over 10+ ilvl difference.

Using simcraft as your defense is such a poor choice, I won't even comment on that.
As for the 1 spec thing, sure but then you have 3 dps specs, if one goes down, you take the next one. Whats the big deal in tuning down the op spec, and even if it becomes non viable, nothing stops you from still doing good dps in destro(for example). But we don't have this luxury, if our spec sux, we are a hindrance to our raid, thus we don't get picked for downs and such. The moment you have such huge gap between dps', you will have class stacking, or at least class dodging, you'd rather have 3-4 mages then SP. And why are you making your self the good guy?
"1) People, like me, who accept that there may be adjustments coming and who are happy that the developers are taking time to make sure we stay in a good position in 5.2, instead of knee-jerk, blanket nerfing the class far to the other extreme as has been done in the past. "

Sorry to say but your whining "plz dont nurf me", I never said put them to the lowest level, I said nerf them 10 to 12%, that would put them on level with every one else, that would mean a 10k dps nerf on single target(little bit more). Not 20k...
And since you seem to like history, wasn't afflic a known multi dot spec? Not a single target dps...(that was demo)
BTW, SP was better then lock in only two fights, spine and madness( and maybe Hagara), And I will admit SP were OP on madness, but locks were not lagging so much behind SP as SP are behind locks now. So your point is kinda irrelevent... The op caster of DS was mage anyway... With Combat rogue they were topping the meters in every single fight(except madness).

[kryptakronik]

Gotta love all the but-hurt," Aff is better than my class, please nerf them to the ground so they are bottom tier dps." Or , "Aff is better than demo or destro, nerf it so I can play them."

[Deleted]

No affli is better than every class in too many scenarios and by too much, please nerf it . Please stop exaggerating. It is getting bothersome and boring.

[kryptakronik]

What's getting bothersome is you crying how spriests suck. Yeah we get it, they need buffed. Doesn't mean aff needs a 10-15% nerf so its a mid pack dps spec just because we have two other decent specs we can fall back on.

[noaim]

No affli is better than every class in too many scenarios and by too much, please nerf it . Please stop exaggerating. It is getting bothersome and boring.

The irony...

[Nigeldruid]

Anyways, to the point - 1) is Affliction really as good as I think it is or am I simply misinformed?
2) If yes, why hasn't it been nerfed yet?
3) Will it be nerfed in the near future (5.2 primarily) at all?

Because Affliction is aweful in PvP right now, so in order to both buff it in PvP and nerf it in PvE it requires some smarter changes than just "Decreased x damage by y%".

The same reason shadow isn't being randomly buffed in PvE.

[Uzkin]

There's absolutely nothing wrong with affliction being the overall best dps spec, for a change. In cataclysm, shadow priests, mages, rogues etc. all had their time to shine whilst the warlock class withered and almost went extinct. Maybe, because warlocks sucked so much for so long, ppl somehow started to think that warlocks are *supposed to be* at the bottom, or middle of the pack at best. Newsflash: warlocks have the exact same right to be at the top as everyone else.

If affliction was OP, to the extent that raid groups started to stack warlocks, *that* would be a problem. However, that is not happening. Affliction is quite well balanced, and there are plenty of fights where other classes do better than affliction warlocks.

[Exac]

Ret paladins would be happy for a buff that puts them within 90% of affliction warlocks.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

I have played many specs on many classes in this game, and what some people might be missing is the difficulty factor. I think Affliction in MoP isn't an easy spec to play compared to many other classes/specs. I also don't see TONS of Locks, and especially Aff locks in raids either. So its not like anyone is "taking advantage" of them being "OP."

[Uzkin]

Ret paladins would be happy for a buff that puts them within 90% of affliction warlocks.

Hmm.. considering that retribution's overall dps on 25HC mode is 96% of that of affliction warlocks, which ret ability would you like to see nerfed? I would suggest Censure; passive dps sources are boring

http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overa...14/60/default/