Crying about PVP realms ''Blue'' response

[Deleted]

Lol at the "opt-in" part. You opted in when you chose a pvp server. Every effing cross-server feature before CRZ has been more-or-less mandatory if you want to progress your character and get something done, get some loot, pwn some noobs or kill some dragons. It's only shoved down the throats of people who don't belong on pvp servers to begin with. They're the only ones (damn near, exceptions appear) crying about it.

A Lol poster talking about "belonging on pvp servers", oh well. The people liking this are those who want to camp 60s with their level 90, then run back to their non-crz areas when other level 90s show up. It is not too much pvp, it is too little. In crz you can gank without consequences. In a real pvp environment, there are no safe spots to run, the lowlevel that got ganked by you can come back for you later. Again and again.

You had personal and guild-wide kos lists, your actions and your reputations mattered - for years. Look at this as an example:
http://www.bloodmonarchy.com/acdt/04.php

[Deleted]

Server choice has not meant an exclusive community for gameplay since Patch 1.12, when they introduced the first cross-realm tech. Your entire premise here is based on something that is not true.

Server choice has meant server exclusivity until CRZ.

It even meant server exclusivity for the (optional, picked by a menu command) Bg's and instances, because you couldn't interact with other people from other (discrete) servers in any way whatsoever. No way to form a group, no way to arrange to meet, no way to gank, no way to trade.

No way even to see them in the game world.

Make this easy - answer this question -

A pvp server has meant that you would only be able to engage in world pvp with someone from that server for 8 years - true or false?

---------- Post added 2012-12-29 at 12:28 AM ----------

Because CRZ is just one additional small step to greater cross-server gameplay. It's not a significant change in direction, it's the next step down a path they have been treading for years. Before LFR, you could only raid with people on your server. Before LFD, you had to spam Trade to get people on your server for dungeons. Before Battlegroups, BGs were server-specific as well.

Cross-realm technology has been the go-to solution for population issues for Blizzard since Vanilla. CRZ is simply that same concept applied to the open world rather than instanced content. It doesn't do anything to that open world that wasn't already promised and warning about in the realm policies.

Yes, it does - it adds the ability to gank and be ganked by someone not from your server, with all that entails.

Population merging on the fly is not now, never has been and never will be a substitute for actual server based pvp. It's nice to see blizzard address the fact that theres near zero interest in world pvp by accumulating the little interest there is via CRZ, but it's not server pvp.

[Leonard McCoy]

What's funny is that so many of you complain about the LFD/LFR community and how packed with assholes/retards/jerks/ and you name it. Well guess what CRZ is. Crz is forcing that on the majority of players leveling with the game. Now it would be alright if the wow public didn't contain so many misanthropes and nehrdowells but it does and CRZ effectively gives those players a sand box to fuck around in. Yes you agreed to pvp in a pvp server, congratulations. I don't think any of you agreed to being beseiged by an onslaught of assholes or being subjected and forced to swallow the playstyle of Jhonny Ghankyou. It's madness and it's bad business for Blizzard. Subject new players to the community of douche bags.

[coldbear]

What's funny is that so many of you complain about the LFD/LFR community and how packed with assholes/retards/jerks/ and you name it. Well guess what CRZ is. Crz is forcing that on the majority of players leveling with the game. Now it would be alright if the wow public didn't contain so many misanthropes and nehrdowells but it does and CRZ effectively gives those players a sand box to fuck around in. Yes you agreed to pvp in a pvp server, congratulations. I don't think any of you agreed to being beseiged by an onslaught of assholes or being subjected and forced to swallow the playstyle of Jhonny Ghankyou. It's madness and it's bad business for Blizzard. Subject new players to the community of douche bags.

LFD/LFR is 4chan. **** that ****. CRZ is slightly like that, except the only talking you do is with the edge of your pixels bonking them on the head. There's no "OMG GTFO NOOB ONLY 32K DSP LOL DIAF!" There's no verbal abuse. You either want unfair Johnny Gankyou style pvp or you get off the pvp server. Done. You pay $15 a month for a service that you no longer enjoy because you got used to being king of the hill thinking you were above getting ganked, then you found out you were not. Pay another $25 (or reroll) and you can have peace of mind and it's nice and quiet. Done.

[Deleted]

LFD/LFR is 4chan. **** that ****. CRZ is slightly like that, except the only talking you do is with the edge of your pixels bonking them on the head. There's no "OMG GTFO NOOB ONLY 32K DSP LOL DIAF!" There's no verbal abuse. You either want unfair Johnny Gankyou style pvp or you get off the pvp server. Done. You pay $15 a month for a service that you no longer enjoy because you got used to being king of the hill thinking you were above getting ganked, then you found out you were not. Pay another $25 (or reroll) and you can have peace of mind and it's nice and quiet. Done.

Why pay $25 for something you already had for 8 years?

[Leonard McCoy]

LFD/LFR is 4chan. **** that ****. CRZ is slightly like that, except the only talking you do is with the edge of your pixels bonking them on the head. There's no "OMG GTFO NOOB ONLY 32K DSP LOL DIAF!" There's no verbal abuse. You either want unfair Johnny Gankyou style pvp or you get off the pvp server. Done. You pay $15 a month for a service that you no longer enjoy because you got used to being king of the hill thinking you were above getting ganked, then you found out you were not. Pay another $25 (or reroll) and you can have peace of mind and it's nice and quiet. Done.

theirs lots of verbal abuse but that's not the only abuse. its true you can pay the sub or reroll. Or you can do the simpler thing. Leave the game.

[Endus]

A pvp server has meant that you would only be able to engage in world pvp with someone from that server for 8 years - true or false?

False. You're including incidental coincidence as if it were necessary and integral parts of the design concept. It's entirely and completely wrong.

A PvP server meant you were open to PvP with anyone you encountered in the world. It happened that, due to the state of server design at that time, that it was only people on your server. That changed with CRZ, as things often change.

It was never a stated intent of the design.

Your argument boils down to "Something changed and I don't like it". Well, that's irrelevant. It doesn't mean Blizzard's wrong to make the change, nor that they owe you free anything as a result. The game is constantly being improved, and improvement requires change. That capacity for change is something you agreed to. You don't get to make up rules that certain kinds of change aren't allowed and you should get free transfers or the like as a result.

Yes, it does - it adds the ability to gank and be ganked by someone not from your server, with all that entails.

Still waiting for you to provide a blue post or policy document supporting your claim that this was ever the goal of server design. I have to assume it's because you can't, and there's a reason for that; it's not true.

Population merging on the fly is not now, never has been and never will be a substitute for actual server based pvp. It's nice to see blizzard address the fact that theres near zero interest in world pvp by accumulating the little interest there is via CRZ, but it's not server pvp.

PvP servers never promised server-exclusive world PvP. Provide a blue source or policy document to back up that claim, or admit you're making it up.

What's funny is that so many of you complain about the LFD/LFR community and how packed with assholes/retards/jerks/ and you name it. Well guess what CRZ is. Crz is forcing that on the majority of players leveling with the game. Now it would be alright if the wow public didn't contain so many misanthropes and nehrdowells but it does and CRZ effectively gives those players a sand box to fuck around in. Yes you agreed to pvp in a pvp server, congratulations. I don't think any of you agreed to being beseiged by an onslaught of assholes or being subjected and forced to swallow the playstyle of Jhonny Ghankyou. It's madness and it's bad business for Blizzard. Subject new players to the community of douche bags.

The main reason people complain about it in LFD/LFR is because those are inherently cooperative environments, and one player not cooperating throws a wrench into the works.

PvP is inherently combative, not cooperative. Other players acting like mouth-frothing ravenous baboons just encourages more world PvP, which is the entire point. The 4chan effect, if anything, is a boon for CRZ where it's a detriment for LFD/LFR. Not least because those babboons are often poor at PvP against other level-capped players, making them ripe and easy pickings for counter-ganking.

[Deleted]

False. You're including incidental coincidence as if it were necessary and integral parts of the design concept. It's entirely and completely wrong.

I'm not, i've already stated several times I am merely outlining actualities, not design decisions. I'll happliy agree with you, here and now that blizzard always intended for CRZ like functions to occur, though there is no data for it. I concede it merely so you never mention it ever again.

And then i'll add that it's irrelevent to my point or the reasons why the CRZ change isn't what people signed up to.

A PvP server meant you were open to PvP with anyone you encountered in the world. It happened that, due to the state of server design at that time, that it was only people on your server. That changed with CRZ, as things often change.

It was never a stated intent of the design.
.

And it doesn't matter.

1) A pvp server meant (de facto, fuck design, no one cares even though you may be right about CRZ*) you'd only meet people from your own server.
2) It meant this for 8 years.
3) People in general and in the vast majority of cases assume that what has been happening for 8 years will carry on happening.

Therefore, people signed up to world pvp only with people from their own server. CRZ breaks this understanding. Whether this was blizzards intent, design or intnetion is completely immaterial. The de facto position was pvp server = only people from the same server would be able to pvp with in the world (and lack of communication from blizzard would only lead the vast majority of players to one conclusion.) The natural understanding therefore would be for players to think that pvp server = only people on my server I shall world pvp with.

That's gone now that CRZ is here and so blizzard should be handing out free transfers, not snarky comments.

Again, I am outlining actualities and reasonable conclusions from those actualities. Design decisions, unknown and unstated intentions, future plans or even a simple lack of clear communication are all completely irrelevent. Day to day facts lead reasonable people to obvious conclusions. Reasonable people, knowing this, would only ever say that de facto understandings leading to obvious conclusions are fair enough. End of story.

* you may be right, we have no data so we do not know. (Again i concede the issue so you can stop wasting time with irrelevence.) Stop trying to weasel out of actual facts using unknowable, unstated intents.

[Seegtease]

PvP servers never promised server-exclusive world PvP. Provide a blue source or policy document to back up that claim, or admit you're making it up.

Really? So the only thing we can make a valid complaint about are things that violate the original promises? Anything that was not specifically stated is fair game for change and we should shut up and take it?

Come on. Just because something isn't stated doesn't mean it's a reasonable thing to change. It's absolutely impossible to cover everything. If they added 30 NPCs to every zone on PvE servers that flew around and one-shot people randomly, could we not complain? I mean, after all, they never promised they wouldn't do that. Or maybe they could just make an AoE spell that covers Azeroth entirely dealing 1,000,000 damage to all players every 5 minutes. Hey, I can't show you where Blizzard said they would never do such a thing, so I guess it's totally acceptable.

No, just because it's not a broken promise doesn't mean we can't (or shouldn't) complain about it.

Do you remember the time that Blizzard was going to reveal everybody's real name on the forums instead of using character names? You remember how much people flipped out over it? And you must know they cancelled the idea. Why? Because we complained. The CRZ situation is quite similar. Sure, there were a few people here and there who wanted more populated zones, but ultimately, more people dislike it than like it. However, Blizzard made the change because they want people to play the game the way THEY, the designers, intended. The only way to make them change their mind is to be as loud as we were about the whole "show your real name" issue.

[Deleted]

Really? So the only thing we can make a valid complaint about are things that violate the original promises? Anything that was not specifically stated is fair game for change and we should shut up and take it?

Come on. Just because something isn't stated doesn't mean it's a reasonable thing to change. It's absolutely impossible to cover everything. If they added 30 NPCs to every zone on PvE servers that flew around and one-shot people randomly, could we not complain? I mean, after all, they never promised they wouldn't do that. Or maybe they could just make an AoE spell that covers Azeroth entirely dealing 1,000,000 damage to all players every 5 minutes. Hey, I can't show you where Blizzard said they would never do such a thing, so I guess it's totally acceptable.

No, just because it's not a broken promise doesn't mean we can't (or shouldn't) complain about it.

Do you remember the time that Blizzard was going to reveal everybody's real name on the forums instead of using character names? You remember how much people flipped out over it? And you must know they cancelled the idea. Why? Because we complained. The CRZ situation is quite similar. Sure, there were a few people here and there who wanted more populated zones, but ultimately, more people dislike it than like it. However, Blizzard made the change because they want people to play the game the way THEY, the designers, intended. The only way to make them change their mind is to be as loud as we were about the whole "show your real name" issue.

The thing is, Endus is asking for a blue post that covers something so obvious that it would never be mentioned, then claiming victory when it can't be done.

I'd quite like a blue post saying you have to have electrical power to your equipment before you can play wow. Bet there isn't one though. Guess that must mean everyone plays wow without the use of electrcity then.....

[Endus]

I'm not, i've already stated several times I am merely outlining actualities, not design decisions. I'll happliy agree with you, here and now that blizzard always intended for CRZ like functions to occur, though there is no data for it. I concede it merely so you never mention it ever again.

And then i'll add that it's irrelevent to my point or the reasons why the CRZ change isn't what people signed up to.

You just agreed that they DID sign up for it, literally two sentences ago.

1) A pvp sever meant (de facto, fuck design, no one cares even though you may be right about CRZ*) you'd only meet people from your own server.
2) It meant this for 8 years.
3) People in general and in the vast majority of cases assume that what has been happening for 8 years will carry on happening.

The first two are simply not true. The third may be true, but it's based on players ignoring the terms they agreed to when they signed up; they should never have assumed that when they specifically agreed to constant change.

Really? So the only thing we can make a valid complaint about are things that violate the original promises? Anything that was not specifically stated is fair game for change and we should shut up and take it?

No, you can complain about changes all you like. I have never said you must like CRZ. Just that it's not a breach of promise in any way whatsoever. And that if your issue is "every mouthbreathing chucklehead around if ganking me", then the issue is that you chose a PvP server in error, rather than the PvE server that actually reflects the ruleset you'd prefer. And that's not Blizzard's fault.

The fact is; nobody is on a PvP server who didn't choose to be. Part of that choice was metaphorically ticking the box that said "yes, I want to be ganked all the time by anyone and everyone no matter how unfair it may be". The consequences of THAT choice rest on the player. Blizzard did not make that choice. It provided several types of servers. The one you're on? That's on you.

[Ayonel]

1) A pvp sever meant (de facto, fuck design, no one cares even though you may be right about CRZ*) you'd only meet people from your own server.
2) It meant this for 8 years.
3) People in general and in the vast majority of cases assume that what has been happening for 8 years will carry on happening.

Therefore, people signed up to world pvp only with people from their own server. CRZ breaks this understanding. Whether this was blizzards intent, design or intnetion is completely immaterial. The de facto position (and lack of communication from blizzard would only lead the vast majority of players to one conclusion.) The natural understanding would be for players to think that pvp server = only people on my server I shall world pvp with.

That's gone now that CRZ is here and so blizzard should be handing out free transfers, not snarky comments.

I'm sure most people had no idea what they were getting into when they rolled on a pvp server. I'm sure many people rolled on low-population pvp realms so they could be the big dog, or at least know the amount of world pvp would be limited. I'm sure that many people rolled on 3:1 their faction populated servers so that world pvp would be demonstrably in their favor, i.e. it wouldn't be a problem - for them.

That said, I have come around to seeing why so many people have a beef with CRZ : The casual WoW player who just looks at this as a pve rpg is unable to enjoy the game that they have liked for so many years. This problem has arisen due to an explicit change in the game world model, not due to a decision that was made by the players. To the extent that this change has had an overwhelmingly negative impact on many, many players, Blizzard should do something to fix it.

I agree with BeastmasterGuardian: No progress is going to be made on this, or any of the other threads. Those people who like ganking lowbies also like calling the people complaining about it pussies and/or crybabies. There will be no resolution here.

I would point out one small thing, though. A recurring theme here is that people on both sides voice concerns about 'the server community'. I think a lot of people do develop an affinity for, and a loyalty to, their servers. This is supposed to be a good thing. Alienating people so that they leave or stop playing should not be a goal of any service provider, even if many of the players posting here think they are simply culling the weak.

[Deleted]

You just agreed that they DID sign up for it, literally two sentences ago.

Quote me.

The first two are simply not true. The third may be true, but it's based on players ignoring the terms they agreed to when they signed up; they should never have assumed that when they specifically agreed to constant change.

A pvp server did indeed mean de facto that you would only see people from your server. "A PvP server meant you were open to PvP with anyone you encountered in the world. It happened that, due to the state of server design at that time, that it was only people on your server." - Endus. That is you, good sir.

it meant this for 8 years. So you are now contradicting both yourself and the facts. Fine by me, but you look silly.

What players understand IS what they have signed up to. Simplest concept in contract law.

No, you can complain about changes all you like. I have never said you must like CRZ. Just that it's not a breach of promise in any way whatsoever. And that if your issue is "every mouthbreathing chucklehead around if ganking me", then the issue is that you chose a PvP server in error, rather than the PvE server that actually reflects the ruleset you'd prefer. And that's not Blizzard's fault.

The fact is; nobody is on a PvP server who didn't choose to be. Part of that choice was metaphorically ticking the box that said "yes, I want to be ganked all the time by anyone and everyone no matter how unfair it may be". The consequences of THAT choice rest on the player. Blizzard did not make that choice. It provided several types of servers. The one you're on? That's on you.

Nobody is on a pvp server. That's because there aren't any any more.

[Endus]

The thing is, Endus is asking for a blue post that covers something so obvious that it would never be mentioned, then claiming victory when it can't be done.

It's so "obvious" that plenty of people in this thread disagree with you, no definition of any kind supports your claim, whether English or Blizzard-specific, and you've failed to rationalize or otherwise support it in ANY way whatsoever.

You've made a claim that "PvP server" means something other than what those words explicitly mean, going by the dictionary. The obligation is on YOU to back up that claim.

You're claiming something about the definition of "PvP server". That's the kind of thing Blizzard DOES do. And did. In the PvP realm policy. Which doesn't in any way support you. It's nothing like stuff that isn't related to Blizzard's services, like your house having power.

[Ayonel]

...then the issue is that you chose a PvP server in error, rather than the PvE server that actually reflects the ruleset you'd prefer. And that's not Blizzard's fault.

I agree with you, as I did earlier today on another thread. However, I still believe that most people really had no idea, really, what the implications of that were. And somehow, until CRZ, people managed to live their WoW lives entirely unaware of, or without facing the implications of, that decision.

So, it's one thing to say that you own your decision, but it's another when the results of that decision change completely due to some unforeseen and uncontrollable change in the world.

[Eats Compost]

To be completely honest, I think the problem comes down to flying mounts. Flying mounts make max-level players incredibly slippery. It's not just easier to kill a low-level player, it's also much easier to find and pursue them.

PvP would be much, much healthier if there were more of a restriction on flying than just being out of combat, or if there were some way to dismount other players that didn't require you to be stationary & dismounted and have a 15-minute cooldown.

[Demetrion]

link to this?

You really need a link? Just go to any major city and look around. I first thought someone brought friend or 2 onto my realm but then I realized that there are to many of them.

[Deleted]

I'm sure most people had no idea what they were getting into when they rolled on a pvp server.

I'm certain as well - that's the basis for my argument, after all. All that people would have to go off is how a PVP server actually was when you played on it. For 8 years this meant only seeing people from that server (it also meant naff all world pvp, lol) People sign onto a pvp server, they play on it and if they stay it must be because they agre to it how it actually is.

Or was.

I'm sure many people rolled on low-population pvp realms so they could be the big dog, or at least know the amount of world pvp would be limited. I'm sure that many people rolled on 3:1 their faction populated servers so that world pvp would be demonstrably in their favor, i.e. it wouldn't be a problem - for them.

That said, I have come around to seeing why so many people have a beef with CRZ : The casual WoW player who just looks at this as a pve rpg is unable to enjoy the game that they have liked for so many years. This problem has arisen due to an explicit change in the game world model, not due to a decision that was made by the players. To the extent that this change has had an overwhelmingly negative impact on many, many players, Blizzard should do something to fix it.

I agree with BeastmasterGuardian: No progress is going to be made on this, or any of the other threads. Those people who like ganking lowbies also like calling the people complaining about it pussies and/or crybabies. There will be no resolution here.

I would point out one small thing, though. A recurring theme here is that people on both sides voice concerns about 'the server community'. I think a lot of people do develop an affinity for, and a loyalty to, their servers. This is supposed to be a good thing. Alienating people so that they leave or stop playing should not be a goal of any service provider, even if many of the players posting here think they are simply culling the weak.

Pvp servers have been pve servers with a once in every 3 months node fight attached for the best part of a decade. CRZ is a monumental change. So extreme it's night and day. So extreme in fact that it is frankly bloody stupid to say the playerbase was on board with it. As far as systemic changes go the only things I can think of more extreme are things like swapping the belfs for nelfs or something. (Cue a chorus of "You agreed!" from the fan boys.)

[Deleted]

False. You're including incidental coincidence as if it were necessary and integral parts of the design concept. It's entirely and completely wrong.

A PvP server meant you were open to PvP with anyone you encountered in the world. It happened that, due to the state of server design at that time, that it was only people on your server. That changed with CRZ, as things often change.

It was never a stated intent of the design.

Your argument boils down to "Something changed and I don't like it". Well, that's irrelevant. It doesn't mean Blizzard's wrong to make the change, nor that they owe you free anything as a result. The game is constantly being improved, and improvement requires change. That capacity for change is something you agreed to. You don't get to make up rules that certain kinds of change aren't allowed and you should get free transfers or the like as a result.




Still waiting for you to provide a blue post or policy document supporting your claim that this was ever the goal of server design. I have to assume it's because you can't, and there's a reason for that; it's not true.



PvP servers never promised server-exclusive world PvP. Provide a blue source or policy document to back up that claim, or admit you're making it up.




The main reason people complain about it in LFD/LFR is because those are inherently cooperative environments, and one player not cooperating throws a wrench into the works.

PvP is inherently combative, not cooperative. Other players acting like mouth-frothing ravenous baboons just encourages more world PvP, which is the entire point. The 4chan effect, if anything, is a boon for CRZ where it's a detriment for LFD/LFR. Not least because those babboons are often poor at PvP against other level-capped players, making them ripe and easy pickings for counter-ganking.

LOL he asks a question that any one who has played WoW knows the answer and you get it wrong!?! Your refusal to admit that his point is valid is getting desparate.

[Deleted]

It's so "obvious" that plenty of people in this thread disagree with you, no definition of any kind supports your claim, whether English or Blizzard-specific, and you've failed to rationalize or otherwise support it in ANY way whatsoever.

You've made a claim that "PvP server" means something other than what those words explicitly mean, going by the dictionary. The obligation is on YOU to back up that claim.

You're claiming something about the definition of "PvP server". That's the kind of thing Blizzard DOES do. And did. In the PvP realm policy. Which doesn't in any way support you. It's nothing like stuff that isn't related to Blizzard's services, like your house having power.

Already told you, i'm not playing definitional games.

I am simply pointing out how things actually were. You even agree that's how they were. lol

For some reason you think that some blue post somewhere is more important than how the game actually has been played for 8 years. Fuck alone knows why, it's a ridiculous position to take.