Why does Blizzard support something so broken?

[Alvito]

The price of playing on a pvp server is the constant threat of death from players. If it is so bad you cannot lvl or quest then maybe that isn't the type of server you should be on. The system isn't broken that server selection was just not the one for you.

[Endus]

No it's not because "smoking" (which is equivelant to PVP in the example) isn't what's happening. Abuse, harassment and generally douche baggery vis a vi camping and non stop ganking of lvling players by assholes is not pvp just as somebody ashing their cigarette in my soup isn't proper behaviour smoking or non smoking section.

PvP Realm Policies
Actions that would typically be considered "dishonorable" are considered legitimate PvP tactics and will not be addressed by our Game Master (GM) staff. Actions that fall into this category include, but are not limited to:

• Corpse camping.
• Tricking players into getting flagged for PvP (i.e. jumping in the middle of another player's area effect spell).
• Killing players well below your level.

Source

The "abuse, harassment, and general douchebaggery" is explicitly detailed in the PvP realm policy as legitimate gameplay, as the defining characteristic that causes this ruleset to differ from the PvE realm policy. That's why they list corpse camping, tricking people into flagging, and ganking, specifically.

That's what PvP servers are FOR. Not structured, equal-level, fair and honorable PvP. That's PvE servers, and why they have restrictions against this sort of thing.

PvP servers are Fight Club. Fight Club involves getting punched in the face. No fair joining Fight Club and then complaining about all the face-punching.

[shadowmouse]

Your ignorance and refusal to understand my writing annoys me

It isn't that I refuse to understand, you can't seem keep your facts straight.

One of your key points to support your entitlement theory is that your play experience changed because of CRZ, but you can't be consistent about when you started. Here you're a Vanilla veteran, in your other thread you say "When I first rolled my characters on a PvP realm, I did so 2 or 3 years ago" and that ain't Vanilla. Which is it?

You also wrote that you were 8 when you started. That makes you somewhere between 10 and 14. You may be a reasonably talented writer for your age or you have been less than honest. The possibility of the latter makes me wonder what your actual purpose in starting these threads is. Is $25 too big a chunk of your allowance or do you just enjoy the drama?

If you're a top tier player, you seem to have an odd amount of difficulty leveling. You don't have any friends or guild? There's nobody to help you farm gear, give you overwatch while questing or help you hunt down gankers? You don't understand that Expel Harm *isn't* your only heal?

Reroll on a PVE server. Today, that's easier than ever. Most of your achievements and mounts are account bound, money isn't that hard to make and Blizzard has added ways for you to keep in touch with friends. I've always found PVP realms mildly annoying, but that's the way some people like things. It isn't my cup of tea, so I play on a PVE realm. Let the folks who like the PVP environment have their own fun.

[Frolk]

Man up and pay the 25 dollars, if ur friends dont wanna follow just transfer to an PVE server in same battlegroup...problem fixed.
And if u cant afford the 25 dollars, u got bigger problems than being killed in a video game

[Leonard McCoy]

PvP Realm Policies
Actions that would typically be considered "dishonorable" are considered legitimate PvP tactics and will not be addressed by our Game Master (GM) staff. Actions that fall into this category include, but are not limited to:

• Corpse camping.
• Tricking players into getting flagged for PvP (i.e. jumping in the middle of another player's area effect spell).
• Killing players well below your level.

Source

The "abuse, harassment, and general douchebaggery" is explicitly detailed in the PvP realm policy as legitimate gameplay, as the defining characteristic that causes this ruleset to differ from the PvE realm policy. That's why they list corpse camping, tricking people into flagging, and ganking, specifically.

That's what PvP servers are FOR. Not structured, equal-level, fair and honorable PvP. That's PvE servers, and why they have restrictions against this sort of thing.

PvP servers are Fight Club. Fight Club involves getting punched in the face. No fair joining Fight Club and then complaining about all the face-punching.

Fight club was always a one on one fight between two adults. Not some 10 lvl 90 assholes waiting in barrens. Yes I know you can hide behind blue posts that's fine. I don't care and frankly the pissed off customers don't care either. CRZ and "pvp" experience is not what many players are after and unless something is done to address this issue it will simple be another valid reason for players to unsub. At the end of the day you either offer them some kind of carrot or they get mad and hold it against the company. Blizzard IMHO can ill afford even more PR problems. Now a sane and rational community would acknowledge this and ask Blizzard to do something about it. Instead this community tells players their wrong and adds to their frustration further encouraging players to leave.

[Daetur]

It's been stated over and over that any player should have been fully aware of what they were potentially getting into on a PvP server when they created their character.

It is up to you to decide whether your friends are worth staying or not.

And let it be known, I am in the same situation. I would roll on a PvE server if my friends had been there, but they weren't. We've decided to stay on PvP servers, and you know what I did? I manned up, got some mediocre PvP gear and a PvP spec, and I will move on and do something else for a while if I'm being bothered.

[Pann]

Fight club was always a one on one fight between two adults. Not some 10 lvl 90 assholes waiting in barrens. Yes I know you can hide behind blue posts that's fine. I don't care and frankly the pissed off customers don't care either. CRZ and "pvp" experience is not what many players are after and unless something is done to address this issue it will simple be another valid reason for players to unsub. At the end of the day you either offer them some kind of carrot or they get mad and hold it against the company. Blizzard IMHO can ill afford even more PR problems. Now a sane and rational community would acknowledge this and ask Blizzard to do something about it. Instead this community tells players their wrong and adds to their frustration further encouraging players to leave.

You're fighting a losing battle arguing your point here. The fact is if CRZ costs them enough customers they will introduce a change in way PVP works in CRZs and then we will have to listen to how the whiners have won before normal service of parrotting whatever the Blues write resumes.

[Risale]

Hang on a sec, he said he only had 1 heal and that was Expel Harm, to me that means your toon is a monk, so if you leveled a monk (a totaly new class) why on earth did you do it on a PVP realm?

[darkwarrior42]

At this point, the only thing more silly than complaining about PvP on PvP realms is expecting any kind of sympathy from the sorts of people that play on said realms, regardless of circumstances.

[Endus]

Fight club was always a one on one fight between two adults. Not some 10 lvl 90 assholes waiting in barrens.

Yes, it's a bad comparison because PvP realms are explicitly meant to be even worse than Fight Club, removing even those few rules. It's explicitly and specifically a no-holds-barred environment. You agreed to that when you rolled on the PvP server in the first place.

Yes I know you can hide behind blue posts that's fine. I don't care and frankly the pissed off customers don't care either. CRZ and "pvp" experience is not what many players are after and unless something is done to address this issue it will simple be another valid reason for players to unsub. At the end of the day you either offer them some kind of carrot or they get mad and hold it against the company. Blizzard IMHO can ill afford even more PR problems.

Seriously?

They're still the most popular MMO on the market several times over. They could lose 75% of their player base and still be wildly successful in an ongoing sense.

And yes; players can quit. Or just roll on the PvE servers they actually prefer and which exist to provide that experience. The issue here isn't that Blizzard's done something wrong. Everything you're complaining about is how PvP realms are intended to be. It says so right in the realm policy. If you don't like that, you shouldn't be on those realms. It would be very easy for you, and other players, to simply play on the server type you prefer, rather than trying to ruin PvP servers for those who actually do enjoy the ruleset.

Nobody's saying you have to like PvP servers. Nor are you in any way forced to play on them. You continuing to do so is YOUR choice. And yes, you hold the responsibility for the consequences of that decision.

Blizzard doesn't have to change it because they already have the alternative available. You having made the wrong choice does not make one of the options "wrong". It's like you took an airplane flight, and there was a salad option or a burger option for the in-flight meal. You picked the burger. And when it arrived, you complained that it wasn't a vegan veggie burger, but beef. You had a choice, with a vegan option. If you wanted a vegan meal, you should have gotten the salad. Picking the burger doesn't mean it should be automatically vegan for you, it means you ordered something without actually knowing what you were picking.

The root of this issue is that the players made the wrong choice, and are facing the consequences of that decision. Rather than take responsibility for making a mistake, they're demanding that Blizzard give them a free redo. That's not really fair to Blizzard.

[Deleted]

This is one of the main reasons im glad RP-PVP are excluded from CRZ apart from the Realid invites, as much as i detest questing in general atleast i have the option... unlike various friends who have shown me their realms and its just pathetic that blizzard is allowing what CRZ has done to WPVP.

In vanilla when i picked this server If i got attacked while lvling i had their name and i could get them back either when i rezzed or with a main if they were higher lvl, with the expansions WPvP happened alot less often and they could fly away leading to more delayed revenge.
If i had CRZ...(thank christ i dont) randomdk90 from another server that i dont know and cant kill back and will never see again just killed me, repeat 50 times with other random people until bored from the rez timer...

thats how alt lvling now works if u want to quest
its not the same game as vanilla and any argument to say PVP happened deal with it are missing the point.
Being on a PVP realm shouldnt mean that anyone who isnt max lvl can only play the sit waiting to rez side of World of Warcraft.
BGs (for ILVL) and then instances shouldnt be the only way to lvl or gear your character until 90

Is it now ridiculous for people on PVP realms to be able to quest IN AN MMO?

[Darthcullen]

Based on your logic in your last post, the design during Vanilla and TBC were failures because PVP realms existed, and this kind of thing happened all day, every day, regardless of your level, or current zone.

There were also no Ilevel requirements for dungeons, so you had to form groups to level aside fro questing, and you would almost ALWAYS get ganked on the way there.

This isn't anything new. The only failure is that you actually felt safe and secure on a PVP realm under the illusion that you would never deal with ganking.

None of what you said happened to me dude sorry

---------- Post added 2012-12-30 at 02:27 AM ----------

That what is the point of debating it with you. Your mind is made up. It was all Blizzard's fault. As you said, you rolled on a PvP server to play with your cousin. You also said that there was "NO Risk" of PvP ever happening on that PvP server.

All I can say is "Suck it up or Give it up." You made the choice to roll on a PvP server under the pretense that PvP wouldn't happen. You choose to do nothing more than bitch about it, when there are alternatives and fixes to your problem.

I also have to agree with what Lucetia said. You are blaming everyone else for problems that you have created for yourself.

Hmmm nope I definitely have not blamed everyone else and huh whats this? I said that I was also to blame? Well that makes you wrong. One of my latest posts definitely said that both blizzard and I are to blame for my distress

---------- Post added 2012-12-30 at 02:30 AM ----------

It isn't that I refuse to understand, you can't seem keep your facts straight.

One of your key points to support your entitlement theory is that your play experience changed because of CRZ, but you can't be consistent about when you started. Here you're a Vanilla veteran, in your other thread you say "When I first rolled my characters on a PvP realm, I did so 2 or 3 years ago" and that ain't Vanilla. Which is it?

You also wrote that you were 8 when you started. That makes you somewhere between 10 and 14. You may be a reasonably talented writer for your age or you have been less than honest. The possibility of the latter makes me wonder what your actual purpose in starting these threads is. Is $25 too big a chunk of your allowance or do you just enjoy the drama?

If you're a top tier player, you seem to have an odd amount of difficulty leveling. You don't have any friends or guild? There's nobody to help you farm gear, give you overwatch while questing or help you hunt down gankers? You don't understand that Expel Harm *isn't* your only heal?

Reroll on a PVE server. Today, that's easier than ever. Most of your achievements and mounts are account bound, money isn't that hard to make and Blizzard has added ways for you to keep in touch with friends. I've always found PVP realms mildly annoying, but that's the way some people like things. It isn't my cup of tea, so I play on a PVE realm. Let the folks who like the PVP environment have their own fun.

Why do you insist on knowing everything about my play style? I played on an account from the start of vanilla to the start of bc (2004) at 8 so that makes me 16 now. duh. I started another account in wotlk at like 3.2 or so. ON the OTHER thread you cited I was on a level 70 pally twink and I NEVER mentioned when I started on it. You are STILL refusing to read my writing lol.

---------- Post added 2012-12-30 at 02:33 AM ----------

Hang on a sec, he said he only had 1 heal and that was Expel Harm, to me that means your toon is a monk, so if you leveled a monk (a totaly new class) why on earth did you do it on a PVP realm?

Same realm as my cousin. Are you even reading the thread?

---------- Post added 2012-12-30 at 02:37 AM ----------

The root of this issue is that the players made the wrong choice, and are facing the consequences of that decision. Rather than take responsibility for making a mistake, they're demanding that Blizzard give them a free redo. That's not really fair to Blizzard.

I made a choice that was right at the time and fun at the time, then changed to a horrible choice after a change from blizzard hmmmm sorry for not predicting the future. Yes based on the rules of a pvp server it is possible to predict this would happen. But there were no signs that my realm would ever be this bad so no, the argument that it is entirely my fault is wrong since Blizzard also made a decision in the given situation.
***Granted mine is the more wrong one there are still definitely two acting forces here.***

[Endus]

I made a choice that was right at the time and fun at the time, then changed to a horrible choice after a change from blizzard hmmmm sorry for not predicting the future. Yes based on the rules of a pvp server it is possible to predict this would happen. But there were no signs that my realm would ever be this bad so no, the argument that it is entirely my fault is wrong since Blizzard also made a decision in the given situation.
***Granted mine is the more wrong one there are still definitely two acting forces here.***

The rules have ALWAYS stated that ganking and general asshattery is totally legit on PvP realms, and that this freedom is the main difference between that ruleset and the PvE ruleset.

If your issue is "people are ganking and being asshats", then you should never have rolled on a PvP server, and should take this opportunity to move to a server whose ruleset suits you. This isn't a big deal, nor is it a negative statement about you as a person; both types of server exist to serve different types of customer, who have different expectations and desires. And that's okay.

The issue we're having is that there are people, on PvP servers, who would prefer the PvE ruleset, and are demanding a free transfer and/or the PvP ruleset to be abolished in favor of PvE server rules everywhere. And neither of those options are fair. Blizzard shouldn't give you a free transfer because you made a mistake. And they shouldn't abolish the PvP ruleset because some players prefer PvE servers.

Wanting a transfer just means that it's desirable to you, it doesn't mean you're owed one. If it's not worth the price to transfer or the time investment to reroll, then what you're saying is "it's not a big enough deal for me to do either of those". I don't see any justification for demanding a free transfer or that the rules be changed, when CRZ just re-enabled what the realm policy has always said is the risk you take on a PvP realm.

[Leonard McCoy]

Yes, it's a bad comparison because PvP realms are explicitly meant to be even worse than Fight Club, removing even those few rules. It's explicitly and specifically a no-holds-barred environment. You agreed to that when you rolled on the PvP server in the first place.



Seriously?

They're still the most popular MMO on the market several times over. They could lose 75% of their player base and still be wildly successful in an ongoing sense.

And yes; players can quit. Or just roll on the PvE servers they actually prefer and which exist to provide that experience. The issue here isn't that Blizzard's done something wrong. Everything you're complaining about is how PvP realms are intended to be. It says so right in the realm policy. If you don't like that, you shouldn't be on those realms. It would be very easy for you, and other players, to simply play on the server type you prefer, rather than trying to ruin PvP servers for those who actually do enjoy the ruleset.

Nobody's saying you have to like PvP servers. Nor are you in any way forced to play on them. You continuing to do so is YOUR choice. And yes, you hold the responsibility for the consequences of that decision.

Blizzard doesn't have to change it because they already have the alternative available. You having made the wrong choice does not make one of the options "wrong". It's like you took an airplane flight, and there was a salad option or a burger option for the in-flight meal. You picked the burger. And when it arrived, you complained that it wasn't a vegan veggie burger, but beef. You had a choice, with a vegan option. If you wanted a vegan meal, you should have gotten the salad. Picking the burger doesn't mean it should be automatically vegan for you, it means you ordered something without actually knowing what you were picking.

The root of this issue is that the players made the wrong choice, and are facing the consequences of that decision. Rather than take responsibility for making a mistake, they're demanding that Blizzard give them a free redo. That's not really fair to Blizzard.

The root of the issue is that the experience players had come to expect on their chosen servers has suddenly been changed. They don't care about nonsense pvp and pve distinctions. They don't care about Blizzards policy on the matter. They care that they aren't having fun because Jhonny asshole is every where in their fucking faces. They could lose 75% of their player base and the development staff would likely undergoe some massive changes and retooling of some ideas would occur. I'm not interested in Blizzards success or failure except in so far as it leads to shifts in design paradigms.

[Notos]

The root of the issue is that the experience players had come to expect on their chosen servers has suddenly been changed. They don't care about nonsense pvp and pve distinctions. They don't care about Blizzards policy on the matter. They care that they aren't having fun because Jhonny asshole is every where in their fucking faces. They could lose 75% of their player base and the development staff would likely undergoe some massive changes and retooling of some ideas would occur. I'm not interested in Blizzards success or failure except in so far as it leads to shifts in design paradigms.

Hate to break it to you but the portion of the playerbase that plays on pvp servers is a little under 75%, so nowhere in your wildest dreams will they lose a significant portion of their players over this "issue".

[Leonard McCoy]

Hate to break it to you but the portion of the playerbase that plays on pvp servers is a little under 75%, so nowhere in your wildest dreams will they lose a significant portion of their players over this "issue".

75% wasn't my figure but at some point I'm sure Blizzard will do something to accommodate people who have issues because CRZ introduces them to asshats and ruins their experience. That's it. If it's severe enough they may rethink crz entirely, although that isn't likely. Maybe they offer free xfers? maybe they relook at exactly what a pvp and pve server is?

[Aeluron Lightsong]

75% wasn't my figure but at some point I'm sure Blizzard will do something to accommodate people who have issues because CRZ introduces them to asshats and ruins their experience. That's it. If it's severe enough they may rethink crz entirely, although that isn't likely. Maybe they offer free xfers? maybe they relook at exactly what a pvp and pve server is?

Like why are RP servers exempt from this bullshit? Why do they get a free pass?

...RP servers have CRZ.

[Darthcullen]

The rules have ALWAYS stated that ganking and general asshattery is totally legit on PvP realms, and that this freedom is the main difference between that ruleset and the PvE ruleset.

If your issue is "people are ganking and being asshats", then you should never have rolled on a PvP server, and should take this opportunity to move to a server whose ruleset suits you. This isn't a big deal, nor is it a negative statement about you as a person; both types of server exist to serve different types of customer, who have different expectations and desires. And that's okay.

The issue we're having is that there are people, on PvP servers, who would prefer the PvE ruleset, and are demanding a free transfer and/or the PvP ruleset to be abolished in favor of PvE server rules everywhere. And neither of those options are fair. Blizzard shouldn't give you a free transfer because you made a mistake. And they shouldn't abolish the PvP ruleset because some players prefer PvE servers.

Wanting a transfer just means that it's desirable to you, it doesn't mean you're owed one. If it's not worth the price to transfer or the time investment to reroll, then what you're saying is "it's not a big enough deal for me to do either of those". I don't see any justification for demanding a free transfer or that the rules be changed, when CRZ just re-enabled what the realm policy has always said is the risk you take on a PvP realm.

CRZ made it way worse, if you dump gasoline onto a small fire and make it huge, you are fully accountable for contributing to the fire.

[shadowmouse]

Why do you insist on knowing everything about my play style?

Because you can't have your cake and eat it too. The core of your entitlement claim is that Blizzard changed your play experience, you're claiming that you were a victim. If you are a PVP pro, then you know what PVP realms open you up to. Endus has already addressed that extensively, you've established that you should know better. You continue to dance around things like gearing suggestions and keep coming back to a complaint about CRZ. At some point, I have to wonder. What's your point? You already posted substantially the same thing on the PVP forums and you knew what the response would be.

Blizzard IMHO can ill afford even more PR problems. Now a sane and rational community would acknowledge this and ask Blizzard to do something about it. Instead this community tells players their wrong and adds to their frustration further encouraging players to leave.

What Blizzard, and game designers in general, can afford even less is to allow themselves to be ruled by forums. It is naive to assume that what one reads is an accurate reflection of what gamers want. Set aside talk of echo chambers and selection bias, one of the problems is the way companies use the Internet to manipulate audiences. Today, what you read may be an honest post from a real player, or it can just be astroturfing -- some of which is ham handed and obvious, but that isn't always the case. An idea gets planted, the mob gets riled up, out come the pitchforks and torches. Not everyone is an astroturfer, but that alone doesn't make them legit either. See, you're probably wondering right now if I'm a fanboi or somebody Blizzard has planted. If you are, that's more or less my point; if you can't trust one side of the debate it is unlikely that the other side is any more trustworthy.

Now, let me loan you my tinfoil hat. Darthcullen may just be a reasonably articulate sixteen year old, or he could an older guy working for a company that has an interest in playing up discontent with CRZ. Why? Who knows, but as a hypothetical reason, I'll refer you to your comment on PR. Empty servers are something people have been complaining about, but if Blizz closes servers it will trigger a flood of "ZOMG, WoW is dying". World of Warcraft is built on old code, CRZ is a rough work-in-progress kind of fix, but it moves away from the server based model. Do I really think that there is some sinister plan like that? No, OP is quite likely a sixteen year old with entitlement issues and other things he'd prefer to use his allowance on; however, there are a number of odd inconsistencies in his posts and it is equally possible that he's just jerking a chain that he knows will stir people up. We don't know, and that's why forums shouldn't be permitted to become a form of mob rule.

[twinkleblur]

i agree with everyone else. pvp gear is ur best bet..the bad news..ur a monk...theres only a 90 set...if ur cousin quit? i would suggest another option...reroll alliance or make a rogue get it 90 1st and use his funds to forward ur toon. 1 of the more OP classes always works..as for a monk there really hard to play well in pvp atm and when i tried 2's on mine not only was i the 1st and only target but being a monk ur the only leather non stealth class..actually if i made stealth a defense? yours would be second lowest only lower armor would be a lock.