Page 10 of 14 FirstFirst ...
8
9
10
11
12
... LastLast
  1. #181
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Is this a trick question? He would say that he loves working for the Forsaken of his own free will.
    Mostly because he's been undergoing torture, presumably at the personal ministrations of Syl herself, ever since partway(and early at that) into Cata.
    “He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.”

    Quote Originally Posted by BatteredRose View Post
    They're greedy soulless monsters for not handing me everything for my 15 moneys a month!

  2. #182
    Warchief TheDangerZone's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Burt Reynolds' stache
    Posts
    2,198
    Quote Originally Posted by Deleth View Post
    The best deal would've been to not be murdered in the first place. Being dragged out of the warcraft equivalent of heaven screaming and kicking, forced into your old broken and shattered hull and being threatened to either serve the Lich Queen or being destroyed for good and send to hell without any kind of chance to ever escape and nothing but an eternity of suffering in front of you is NOWHERE near a good deal.
    Come on, you can't use "The best deal would've been to not be murdered in the first place" as an argument. This is a world in war; death IS going to happen, casualties are to be expected.

    And we don't exactly know how the afterlife works on the warcraftverse. Did the souls of the risen even got to "heaven" before being ressurected? Tauren mention that proper rituals must be performed for the soul to me on; neither we know the fate of the forsaken put to true death, we only know that Sylvanas is cut from the afterlife, it hasn't been stated for the rest.

    Above all, "deal" means an arrangement or compromise given certain circumstances, looking to obtain the best possible outcome. T

  3. #183
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    The Forsaken are the ruling government of the area. That gives them the right to the land.
    Of what area? The whole of Lordaeron? No, like I said before, not everything there belongs to them. Eastern Plaguelands doesn't belong to them. Western Plaguelands doesn't belong to them. And before they slaughtered the people in Hillsbrad, Hillsbrad didn't belong to them. Just because the king is dead and they go into the sewers of the capital city doesn't mean that the whole of Lordaeron suddenly belongs to them.

    If the kingdom of Lordaeron doesn't exist anymore and their laws don't apply,then they can't say it is rightfully theirs, because it's their home. It is their land because they have a military presence there, and it remains so until somebody else drives them from that land.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Is this a trick question? He would say that he loves working for the Forsaken of his own free will.
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/1415202640

  4. #184
    The Insane Aquamonkey's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Universe
    Posts
    18,149
    Having free will in the military doesn't mean you get to do whatever the fuck you want. He committed treason and was punished for it.

  5. #185
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Koltira isn't a member of the Forsaken?
    Koltira made a truce with the Alliance, I am pretty sure that Garrosh would have done the same.
    He's a death knight, which makes him undead. Oh I accept that a punishment for his actions is reasonable. But what Sylvanas does is brainwashing him.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-31 at 01:43 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Having free will in the military doesn't mean you get to do whatever the fuck you want. He committed treason and was punished for it.
    Punishment, to me, doesn't mean brainwashing.

  6. #186
    The Insane Aquamonkey's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Universe
    Posts
    18,149
    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    Punishment, to me, doesn't mean brainwashing.
    Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: Fortunately, I have agents that can help you... erase this weakness. Beneath the Undercity you go.
    Koltira Deathweaver yells: NO!
    Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: Shh... quiet, death knight. When I'm finished with you, your fear will be gone.

    That doesn't mean brainwashing. Maybe she just beat it out of him.

  7. #187
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post

    The Scourge had two goals:
    -Prepare way for an invasion of the Burning Legion.
    -Claim Azeroth for Arthas.

    How is that in any way related to what Sylvanas is doing?
    She's raising people into undeath so that they serve her. What her goals are is secondary.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-31 at 01:46 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: Fortunately, I have agents that can help you... erase this weakness. Beneath the Undercity you go.
    Koltira Deathweaver yells: NO!
    Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: Shh... quiet, death knight. When I'm finished with you, your fear will be gone.

    That doesn't mean brainwashing. Maybe she just beat it out of him.
    Torture. Better.

  8. #188
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    That doesn't really count. It's like WoW's own Godwin's Law

    Lich King was creating an army.
    King Varian is creating an army.
    Therefore Humans = Scourge.

    It's the same logic :P
    The Scourge is the Scourge because they were either planning to destroy the world or conquering it all for the Lich King.
    Dude what kind of logic is that. Humans are creating an army by training their people. Like every other normal race. Like orcs, tauren, elves, dwarves, they procreate, raise their young and train them.

    The Lich King, just like Sylvanas, killed people and brought them back as undead. It makes sense that Sylvanas does that, since undead can't procreate, but it's still the same thing the Lich King did.

    Even if Sylvanas has different plans, it doesn't change that when she's killing people and raising them into undeath she's doing what the Lich King did.

  9. #189
    Banned Haven's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky, Russia
    Posts
    11,046
    Quote Originally Posted by Constellation View Post
    Rofl, seriously? That's your example?
    What's wrong with it? Here, an Alliance invading force that seeked to not only avenge Bolvar, but also seize the opportunity granted by civil war in UC to conquer it for the Alliance. Or you didn't do this event?
    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    No it's not the all about the fighting, not to mention how argument doesn't actually detract from the fact their statements about one's home is hypocritical.
    The Forsaken and especially Sylvanas as a faction spend a lot of their time groaning about how Lordaeron is there's and how they live there, and that the Alliance are just being mean when they counter attack (Invade) their land. We know this.
    But they show an utter lack of any empathy whatsoever when they invade another's land to claim it for their and whilst showing total disregard for the living of Lordaeron.
    Did you forget that it wasn't their idea at all? Blame Garrosh for Gilneas.

    As always, pure-hearted paladins of Good never think of the problem from the Forsaken POV. They think that the only right course of action for an undead nation is to bury themselves and quietly rot.
    Last edited by Haven; 2012-12-31 at 01:27 AM.

  10. #190
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    And the Forsaken are creating an army Forsaken-style, there is no evil in that.
    Honestly are you just ignoring everything? For the thousandth time, they create an army by killing people and forcing them into undeath. So there was no evil in the events of WC3 either? When the Scourge turned the humans of Lordaeron into undead through the plague? That act alone was not evil in any way?


    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law
    That's the logic

    The Scourge was evil, by saying the Forsaken did X which the Scourge also did you are implying that the Forsaken are also evil.
    It's really one of the worst arguments possible.

    Or to make it more clear, this is the logic you are applying:
    1. Scourge = raising dead
    2. Sylvanas = raising dead
    3. 1 and 2 results into: Sylvanas = Scourge

    The third line is the line you shouldn't be using, because just because two groups share one attribute does not mean they are the same.


    But does that mean she is equal to the Lich King?
    Does that mean she is pure evil, like the Lich King?
    I never said the Forsaken are 100% like the Scourge. And what does Godwin's law have to do with it. This is not about Nazis.

  11. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    That doesn't really count. It's like WoW's own Godwin's Law

    Lich King was creating an army.
    King Varian is creating an army.
    Therefore Humans = Scourge.

    It's the same logic :P
    The Scourge is the Scourge because they were either planning to destroy the world or conquering it all for the Lich King.
    Wow. You really are good at sidestepping obvious truths. The Lich King was an undead king who created an army of undead mindslaves with the intention of making every living sentient being die and join his ranks. I can't even believe you're being serious, not a turn of phrase I honestly think you're joking, that you think The Lich King was no different than any other conqueror.

    Garrosh accused Sylvanus of using a biological weapon to eradicate life from her enemies and the surrounding land they inhabited so she could raise more and more undead troops to continue the pattern.

    Do you know what happens when a living army finished a war? They settle back into society and life goes on. Do you know what happens when a Scourge-like army finishes a war? All life ends.
    Soothing Mist:"Healing them for a minor amount every 0.5 sec, until you take any other action."
    Jade Serpent Statue: "The statue will also begin casting Soothing Mist on your target. healing for 50% as much as yours. "
    [What's half of minor?]
    "Statue casts Soothing Mist at a nearby ally for toddler healing."

  12. #192
    Banned Haven's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky, Russia
    Posts
    11,046
    Quote Originally Posted by TheWindWalker View Post
    Garrosh accused Sylvanus of using a biological weapon to eradicate life from her enemies and the surrounding land they inhabited so she could raise more and more undead troops to continue the pattern.
    ...and then Garrosh blew Theramore with his honorful and clean manabomb.
    Do you know what happens when a living army finished a war? They settle back into society and life goes on. Do you know what happens when a Scourge-like army finishes a war? All life ends.
    So what? Undeath goes on. Or do you imply that Sylvanas wants to destroy all life in the world? Proof please.

  13. #193
    Elemental Lord
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Behind You
    Posts
    8,667
    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    Then the Forsaken don't have a right to that land either. Yet they insist that they have.[COLOR="red"]
    .
    Forsaken and humans have as much "right" to the land as murlocs.

    Rights dont mean jack shit. Its a made up concept. Its an idea. Rights dont do anything.
    No army has ever been defeated because the other side proclaimed their rights
    The only right that matters is the right of power and strength

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-31 at 05:36 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by TheWindWalker View Post
    Do you know what happens when a Scourge-like army finishes a war? All life ends.
    Is undeath not a form of life?
    Or are you saying the Forsaken want to kill themsleves
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  14. #194
    This is off-topic to the current conversation, but not completely to the Forsaken: Could Kel'thuzad come and join the Forsaken? We didn't destroy his phylactery and he was such an awesome character that saw so little love in WoW. I feel like he would add some more badassery to the Forsaken.
    Sylvanas had Varimatharas and I feel now that he's gone, we need a replacement. Sylvanas could keep his phylactery to control him like Thassarian did with that lich in the Borean Tundra.

  15. #195
    I am Murloc! Scummer's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    England
    Posts
    5,262
    Quote Originally Posted by Haven View Post
    Did you forget that it wasn't their idea at all? Blame Garrosh for Gilneas.

    As always, pure-hearted paladins of Good never think of the problem from the Forsaken POV. They think that the only right course of action for an undead nation is to bury themselves and quietly rot.
    To which Sylvanas all to happily took command of. On top of this they had no qualms about trying to kill everybody they came in contact with and as we're aware Sylvanas wanted to kill everyone. Then on top of this we have Southshore which is clearly Forsaken work.Then we have them enslaving others despite the fact they as a race love to comment on free will, which I call hypocrisy.

    I do appreciate the Forsaken have a POV. However just because they have an opinion and/or POV doesn't make it right. I certainly don't think their POV and goals benefit anybody but themselves.

  16. #196
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    Forsaken and humans have as much "right" to the land as murlocs.

    Rights dont mean jack shit. Its a made up concept. Its an idea. Rights dont do anything.
    No army has ever been defeated because the other side proclaimed their rights
    The only right that matters is the right of power and strength
    I totally agree with that. That's why I find it hypocritical of the Forsaken to claim that the land is rightfully theirs, because they used to own it in life, and then go to Gilneas and Hillsbrad and try to take the land away from the people living there. If they don't respect the right of other people to their land, why should people respect theirs. They can't complain about the Alliance attacking their land, if they are doing the same thing to other people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    No, they kill people because they are the enemy.
    Those people are the enemy because they are at war to protect their existence, it's the same as the Alliance is doing to the Horde.
    Then they resurrect them into undead with a free will.

    The Scourge killed people because they wanted to destroy Azeroth and then turned them into mindless undead that were under control of the Lich King.

    You'd have a point if Sylvanas suddenly started to kill Blood Elves to turn them into Forsaken.


    You said they are becoming the Scourge.
    Godwin's Law has everything to do with it, just replace Nazi with Scourge.
    They weren't at war with Gilneas until they attacked them. Gilneas was not part of the Alliance at that point. They were also attacking civilians and farmers.
    Anyway, it seems like you are arguing that the Scourge isn't exactly the same as the Forsaken, which is compeltely pointless, because in the post before that I said that they are not 100% the same. That doesn't change that those 2 factions share the habit of killing people and turning them into undead.

    Are you saying it's ok for the Forsaken, because they are at war with someone? Then it's ok for the Scourge as well, as long as they declare a war on the living.

    Save me and yourself a lot of time by not telling me again that the Scourge and the Forsaken pursue different goals. It's fucking pointless. Everybody knows that and I have no idea what point you're trying to prove.

    As for Godwin's law, it says that every discussion at some point will make some comparison to the Nazis. What the fuck does that have to do with the Scourge? Are you saying that every discussion in a WoW forum will at some point make a comparison to the Scourge? Why because the Forsaken and the Scourge share a commonality? Is this Kangodo's law? In that case, no. I don't think that every discussion in a WoW forum will at some point make a comparison to the Scourge. Only if there is something that is comparable to what the Scourge did. Like with the Forsaken and what they're in doing in raising people into undeath.
    Last edited by mmocedbf46d113; 2012-12-31 at 10:08 AM.

  17. #197
    The Insane Aquamonkey's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Universe
    Posts
    18,149
    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    I totally agree with that. That's why I find it hypocritical of the Forsaken to claim that the land is rightfully theirs, because they used to own it in life, and then go to Gilneas and Hillsbrad and try to take the land away from the people living there. If they don't respect the right of other people to their land, why should people respect theirs. They can't complain about the Alliance attacking their land, if they are doing the same thing to other people.
    The Gilneans and Hillsbradians shouldn't have been living on Forsaken land before the Forsaken got there.

  18. #198
    Elemental Lord
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Behind You
    Posts
    8,667
    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    If they don't respect the right of other people to their land, why should people respect theirs. They can't complain about the Alliance attacking their land, if they are doing the same thing to other people.
    .
    thats just how people work eh?
    People care more about their own needs and rights more so than other people's rights and needs. Even more so if those other people are considered your enemies.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-31 at 10:15 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    I do appreciate the Forsaken have a POV. However just because they have an opinion and/or POV doesn't make it right. I certainly don't think their POV and goals benefit anybody but themselves.
    thats the thing bout Forsaken.
    Them just being a race of undead gives them a very different vibe and perspective on things
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  19. #199
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    The Gilneans and Hillsbradians shouldn't have been living on Forsaken land before the Forsaken got there.
    I guess in the same way the humans and night elves shouldn't have been living on orc land before the orcs got there.
    It's really their own fault for being in the way. They should've expected them to attack and voluntarily moved out of the way.
    Yeah you basically gave up any serious discussion at this point, right?
    Last edited by mmocedbf46d113; 2012-12-31 at 10:33 AM.

  20. #200
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    That if they pursue different goals you shouldn't compare them to each other!
    By comparing them you insinuate that the Forsaken is as evil as the Scourge.
    That's what Godwin's Law is about, that a discussion is ruined if you compare something to pure evil just because they share one "innocent" trait.
    If the Scourge raise people into undeath and the Forsaken raise people into undeath, then it's perfectly reasonable to compare them to each other. No they aren't 100% the same. Yet you can compare them to each other. How could it possibly be 100% the same? And they share more than just one trait.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-31 at 02:48 PM ----------

    I just remembered that bit from Drek'thar in Hillsbrad

    Drek'Thar says: So you have come seeking our aid?
    Drek'Thar coughs.
    Drek'Thar says: I... *cough* I have been alive for a very long time. In that time I have seen and done terrible things.
    Drek'Thar says: Things that still keep me awake at nights.
    Drek'Thar says: But these terrible things that I have done and the people that I have harmed - I know them... I face them... and I feel remorse for them.
    Drek'Thar says: But the Forsaken. *cough* What do they feel?
    Drek'Thar says: They ravage the land and destroy everything that they touch. How many lives have been lost to their vile poisons?
    Drek'Thar says: How many innocents have fallen before the Forsaken war machine?
    Drek'Thar says: Countless... countless lives... *cough*
    Drek'Thar says: Yes... I have done terrible things, but nothing could ever be as terrible as lending aid to the Forsaken.
    Drek'Thar says: You go back to that spineless orc who would not come see me and you tell him that the Frostwolf clan will not aid the Forsaken. Not now, not ever!
    Drek'Thar says: BEGONE!

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •