Jaina post Operation Shieldwall *Spoilers*

[Combatbutler]

Who said Aethas is guilty? All that I said he is responsible for his chain of command.

Partly true, the Sunreavers were officially part of the Kirin tor, which means every council members would be in the end responsible as well. They are the rulers of the city after all.

[Aquamonkey]

Are we talking about state treason or individual treason? Because I was really clear what was my point and which was which.

I always referred to it as "betrayal" which includes both.

Who said Aethas is guilty? All that I said he is responsible for his chain of command.

Jaina did. Also, there is no direct chain of command in the Kirin Tor. Any higher ranked mage can issue orders to any lower mage regardless of affiliation.

[Kralljin]

Yeah and Northwatch Hold was more threatening. Theramore was not. Heck Aethas even suggested to provide aid to Theramore but nobody bats an eye at that.

Theramore was vital for the reinforcements, since it has Harbor compared to Northwatch Hold.

Also, they probably helped Jaina because she's been a longtime Member / friend of the Kirin Tor, and Aethas is a blood elf, synonym for coward in terms of allegiance as we know since MoP.

[Deleted]

Partly true, the Sunreavers were officially part of the Kirin tor, which means every council members would be in the end responsible as well. They are the rulers of the city after all.

Exactly. That's the point I'm trying to pass.

---------- Post added 2012-12-30 at 04:08 PM ----------

Jaina did. Also, there is no direct chain of command in the Kirin Tor. Any higher ranked mage can issue orders to a lower mage regardless of affiliation.

But there is a direct chain of command regarding to the Kirin Tor sub-factions.

[Aquamonkey]

But there is a direct chain of command regarding to the Kirin Tor sub-factions.

That's because the sub-factions contain people who are not part of the Kirin Tor. There are many people (magi and non-magi) who live in Dalaran, but aren't part of the Kirin Tor. However, within the Kirin Tor itself, there is no direct chain of command.

[Deleted]

That's because the sub-factions contain people who are not part of the Kirin Tor. There are many people (magi and non-magi) who live in Dalaran, but aren't part of the Kirin Tor. However, within the Kirin Tor itself, there is no direct chain of command.

Aethas in Tides of War, "And I take responsibility for the harm done by one of my Sunreavers."

So the term responsibility is not alien to Warcraft or Aethas himself.

[Aquamonkey]

Aethas in Tides of War, "And I take responsibility for the harm done by one of my Sunreavers."

So the term responsibility is not alien to Warcraft or Aethas himself.

Yes, that doesn't mean he is at fault. Jaina should have worked with Aethas and the other 4 Council members to sort out the situation. Instead she blames him completely. Just like she blamed Thrall for Theramore.

[Deleted]

Yes, that doesn't mean he is at fault. Jaina should have worked with Aethas and the other 4 Council members to sort out the situation. Instead she blames him completely. Just like she blamed Thrall for Theramore.

Which has nothing to do with the debate at hand since I always said that Jaina dealt with the all the issue like a T-Rex in a China store. Extreme? Yes. Justifiable according to the circumstances of her state? Acceptable.

My point was always Aethas IS responsible for the actions of ever single member of his organization (like he refers "my Sunreavers"). That was leadership means, not just to order people around.

[Kralljin]

Yes, that doesn't mean he is at fault. Jaina should have worked with Aethas and the other 4 Council members to sort out the situation. Instead she blames him completely. Just like she blamed Thrall for Theramore.

Well, let's be honest choosing someone that is technically a member of the Horde to support the defense against an Horde attack may not be the best idea.

Also, Jaina and the others accepted his help, and were not like "Maybe a Blood elf may not be the right choice".

[Aquamonkey]

Which has nothing to do with the debate at hand since I always said that Jaina dealt with the all the issue like a T-Rex in a China store. Extreme? Yes. Justifiable according to the circumstances of her state? Acceptable.

My point was always Aethas IS responsible for the actions of ever single member of his organization (like he refers "my Sunreavers"). That was leadership means, not just to order people around.

It's not justifiable either. The laws of Dalaran do not give her that kind of power. Being the leader of the Kirin Tor is just a figurehead position from back when the Council members were secret. All six members have equal power. What Jaina did was illegal.

[Deleted]

It's not justifiable either. The laws of Dalaran do not give her that kind of power. Being the leader of the Kirin Tor is just a figurehead position from back when the Council members were secret. All six members have equal power. What Jaina did was illegal.

Yet again, that's for Jaina and the Council decide. They are the rule. We know nothing about the laws of Dalaran to decide if it's illegal or not.

Since Jaina is still leading the Kirin Tor in patch 5.2, it seems it was not illegal.

[Aquamonkey]

Yet again, that's for Jaina and the Council decide. They are the rule. We know nothing about the laws of Dalaran to decide if it's illegal or not.

Since Jaina is still leading the Kirin Tor in patch 5.2, it seems it was not illegal.

I'm 100% certain that 1 Council member can't eject another Council member without consulting everyone.

[Norgannon the Dreamweaver]

Yeah, because a couple thousand elves who will likely be barred from the Isle of Quel'Danas (and again subjected to their addiction pains) and a faction led by a madwoman are going to be a game-changer against a faction with two races that boast powerful mages, one of which has a steady supply of reinforcements coming in for every dead human, and the other of which has its entire culture focused around magic use as well as direct access to one of the most powerful sources of magic on the planet.

The Alliance has been more powerful with magic since day one, buddy. We're more elite than your shameful mana addicts. We actually control it. We don't rely on a font of power to sustain ourselves. You're like crack-heads.

[Deleted]

I'm 100% certain that 1 Council member can't eject another Council member without consulting everyone.

Source of that statement?

[Aquamonkey]

Source of that statement?

Because it's a council. That's how councils function. Rhonin couldn't decide to commit the Kirin Tor to aide Theramore, he needed to put it to a vote by the Council. Expelling a member for SUSPECTED treason seems like a more serious situation.

The last time they expelled a Council member was Kel'Thuzad. There were 3 Council members present during the investigation (Antonidas, Modera, and Drenden). Only after they found evidence of Kel'Thuzad's guilt, did they expelled him. Jaina had no evidence of Aethas' guilt and she expelled him without consulting any other Council members. She then leaves Vereesa in charge (who isn't even in the Kirin Tor).

[Scummer]

I'm 100% certain that 1 Council member can't eject another Council member without consulting everyone.

Considering how she's still the leader of the Kirin Tor in 5.2 the council members agree her.

[Deleted]

Because it's a council. That's how councils function. Rhonin couldn't decide to commit the Kirin Tor to aide Theramore, he needed to put it to a vote by the Council. Expelling a member for SUSPECTED treason seems like a more serious situation.

As I already and Scummer said, Jaina is the leader of the Kirin Tor in patch 5.2, so the rest of Council agreed with her.

Lets stop assuming about rules and laws that we know nothing about. The Council is law, that's all.

[Aquamonkey]

Lets just completely ignore how expelling a Council member has worked in the past or the due process they use to make decisions. Without Aethas there to defend himself, all the Council has is Jaina's word.

[Deleted]

Lets just completely ignore how expelling a Council member has worked in the past or the due process they use to make decisions.

Which were based on personal decisions, not a set of rules. In other words, the Council decide whatever they want, whenever they want, based on a system of votes. And for the looks of it, they didn't cared about Jaina's action.

[Aquamonkey]

Which were based on personal decisions, not a set of rules. In other words, the Council decide whatever they want, whenever they want, based on a system of votes. And for the looks of it, they didn't cared about Jaina's action.

Because Aethas is not present to defend himself. All they have is Jaina's biased side of the story. There is no evidence against Aethas she can present.

When they INVESTIGATED Kel'Thuzad, there were 3 Council members present. They had a majority ruling (3/5) for expulsion when they found damning evidence against him. Where was the Council investigation of Aethas? There was no evidence implicating Aethas directly.