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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryuk View Post
    Capitalism is not a political ideology;
    Correct....

    you can't compare communism and capitalism.
    Incorrect, both systems in the end achieve the same result in their extreme. A powerful minority, and a powerless majority.

    The big difference is that capitalism provides better entertainment whilst you are stuck in your hovel.

  2. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vyxn View Post
    America was able to use its technology for public use because it was owned by private industries there for it was also used for the publics benefit
    Wrong. Most of the American space programs were carried out by NASA, a state owned agency.

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by Arnorei View Post
    It depends. Then why did Russia get to space first if there was no innovation?

    Here's how a true communist society works. You work. You work for yourself still. However, to get more benefit you need to work more, because you don't get the full benefit of your work. There's 9 other people, so you need to work 10 times harder to have twice the benefit of today or you need to motivate the others or give them a means to work as good or fast as you so you can increase productivity overall, so that you could benefit, as well as everyone else.

    So, overall, a truly communist system would work if applied to small communities, let's say of 100.000 people each. Then each community could compete against others. In a way like countries, the difference is that each community has same amount of people, and each has a different resource, so each must compete for their community to prosper. But you won't get a leader alone to prosper, for all are equal inside the community, so all 100.000 people prosper at same time. Obviously that the community would be forced to train their weak links too, and they'd have the incetive of being better then other communities to work. In the end, is this not why a single individual works today? Do people work to have a better tv, or just to have a better tv then the other people? Until a certain point they work to have a better tv, but from that point on they will only work to have more then the others. This is capitalism and consumerism.
    you are not directly benefiting from your labor under communism your benefits is given to you from government you are reliant on the government. when you are that heavily reliant on government they have all the power and you have none

  4. #204
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    If culture is based on a community level instead of an individual level then socialism and perhaps communism would need fewer monetary incentives for success. This is something many people fail so understand, because many people approach these systems from their own experience. Being that most all of us have grown into highly individualistic societies, this makes it hard to understand why things like socialism and communism can in fact work.

    Of course, I wouldn't call what the Russians had, and what many other countries had, communism. It was a totalitarian dictatorship. The two are entirely incompatible by definition. True/ideal communism would in general be a much better system (ranked by happiness and competition) because social bonds are much stronger than monetary bonds. Essentially the polar opposite of what Ayn Rand might want - a perfect economic system, but accounting for the social human factor instead of ignoring it.

  5. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vyxn View Post
    you are not directly benefiting from your labor under communism your benefits is given to you from government you are reliant on the government. when you are that heavily reliant on government they have all the power and you have none
    We are reliant on corporations in a capitalistic society.

    You are always dependant on something as a citizen, no matter what political ideology. Except when it comes to anarchism.

  6. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomatketchup View Post
    We are reliant on corporations in a capitalistic society.

    You are always dependant on something as a citizen, no matter what political ideology. Except when it comes to anarchism.
    And anarchism is an impossible system, as people will naturally shift into some form of political establishment or another.

  7. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kasierith View Post
    Because the fact that the US was the first to land on the moon does not discredit the fact that the Soviets were the first in space. Just like the fact that the Soviets were the first in face does not diminish the importance of America's achievement in reaching the moon.



    See my above post on application vs theoretical knowledge.
    our moon... but you can rent i imagine it will pay for itself pretty fast
    Quote Originally Posted by Connal View Post
    I'd never compare him to Hitler, Hitler was actually well educated, and by all accounts pretty intelligent.

  8. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tokru View Post
    Communism, as idea, has relatively little to do with that.

    The biggest influence was the vastly different start for both sides. The West got financial aid whereas the East actually had to pay heavy reparations. Pure money and, more important, whole factories (those which were not destroyed) were disassembled and transported to Russia. Even rails were ripped from the ground. Also the East had to assimilate a proportionally larger number of expellees from the lost territories.

    Of course the ideology had an influence on the development of such things, but if they had both started on equal grounds the differences would have been much smaller in the end.
    I didn't say anything about ideology, I said Soviet communism, which is a pretty specific thing and also the thrust of this thread. The utopian fantasies of Karl Marx and Friedrich Engles are another thing all together.
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  9. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tierbook View Post
    our moon... but you can rent i imagine it will pay for itself pretty fast
    It's alright. We'll trade it for a ticket for one of your astronauts

  10. #210
    It's not the ideals of "communism" that's wrong, it's the people who lead it. Mao, the countless russian/sovjet leaders, the north korean leaders.

    The idea of everyone having the same is also somewhat against human nature, it's in our instincts to have what others have and/or more of it. That's one of the reasons we have war, criminality, murder and so on.

    In the "perfect world" everyone is equal and have the same.
    By instinct however the "perfect world" is where you (as a person) are dominant over everyone else.
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  11. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tokru View Post
    Of course the ideology had an influence on the development of such things, but if they had both started on equal grounds the differences would have been much smaller in the end.
    You're forgetting perhaps the biggest thing. Communists had to switch over from capitalism and try something nobody had tried before. Capitalists just had to keep going the same way we have for thousands of years.

  12. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomatketchup View Post
    Wrong. Most of the American space programs were carried out by NASA, a state owned agency.
    sorry NASA was the agency that managed the space program they produced nothing it was all done by private industries

    the Saturn 5 rocket was produced by Boeing, North American Aviation, Douglas Aircraft Company, and IBM

    the Space shuttle was made by North American Aviation .The contractor for the Space Shuttle Solid Rocket Boosters was Morton Thiokol, for the external tank, Martin Marietta, and for the Space shuttle main engines, Rocketdyne

    All private industries

  13. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by Luftmangle View Post
    Sounds like you miss the point. You sound like you would rather be a slave to the government, completely dependent on it for survival.
    How is this different from being a slave to the corporations?

    I'm sorry, but you seem to live in the strange assumption that you are free. You're not. You're a consumer and a slave, and your existence serves not yourself, but your boss, and your boss' boss. If you do not abide by the demands of the capitalist hierarchy, you starve. You will have no food. No shelter.

    Worse still, more and more of us live in debt, thinking our debt is actually our possession. Mortgages and more. Which turns us into indentured slaves.

    Communism is a great system. You claim that your 'free' system is the best, but if anything, that results in true slavery. The only problem with communism is the fact that the people in charge don't generally care too much about the populace. The leaders of communist states have, so far, been ultra-capitalist. Corrupt and uncaring, greedy and dangerous. It's not the fault of communism that the people were maltreated. Communism wasn't at fault for the death-squads or the tyranny. Communism doesn't even oppose democracy.
    The problem wasn't communism... The problem was tyranny.

  14. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vyxn View Post
    sorry NASA was the agency that managed the space program they produced nothing it was all done by private industries

    the Saturn 5 rocket was produced by Boeing, North American Aviation, Douglas Aircraft Company, and IBM

    the Space shuttle was made by North American Aviation .The contractor for the Space Shuttle Solid Rocket Boosters was Morton Thiokol, for the external tank, Martin Marietta, and for the Space shuttle main engines, Rocketdyne

    All private industries
    And what benefit has putting a man on the moon effectively granted the USA ?

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by Guilu View Post
    And what benefit has putting a man on the moon effectively granted the USA ?
    You are using one benefit right now.

  16. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kasierith View Post
    It's alright. We'll trade it for a ticket for one of your astronauts
    you sure SpaceX probably charges less and the moon has some pretty nice materials on it
    Quote Originally Posted by Connal View Post
    I'd never compare him to Hitler, Hitler was actually well educated, and by all accounts pretty intelligent.

  17. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guilu View Post
    And what benefit has putting a man on the moon effectively granted the USA ?
    Good PR and some useful technical inventions along the way.

  18. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guilu View Post
    And what benefit has putting a man on the moon effectively granted the USA ?
    bragging rights.... and some useless technologies
    Quote Originally Posted by Connal View Post
    I'd never compare him to Hitler, Hitler was actually well educated, and by all accounts pretty intelligent.

  19. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by schwarzkopf View Post
    You are using one benefit right now.
    What exactly does the internet have to do with the moon? Granted, electronic systems tend to be my main intellectual weakness, but I think I would have heard of that.

  20. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomatketchup View Post
    We are reliant on corporations in a capitalistic society.

    You are always dependant on something as a citizen, no matter what political ideology. Except when it comes to anarchism.


    but with corporations they are controlled by the consumer by the public if the corporation fails to meet the consumers needs the public needs they switch corporations
    there for the corporation is controlled by the public
    in communism the government is in control of the public and if the government doesn't meet the peoples needs what recourse does the people have other then over throwing the governement

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