Ghostcrawler tweet about 25 man, let the speculation begin!

[Catblob]

Perhaps 10 man items will only have two upgrade slots whereas 25 man items will have three upgrade slots.

[Deleted]

Seems blizzard listened to the commuity for once.

They dont listen to the community. They look at their numbers and act by that.

[Gurbz]

There never was a problem in wotlk with the ilvl difference

Oh yeah, no problems at all. Unless you were someone that hated 25s for any reason and preferred 10s. Then you were either left with inferior gear, or forced into a format you did not like. They can't go back to that model at this point, unless they remove 10s all together. That is extremely unlikely to happen, as players have pretty much overwhelmingly demonstrated that they prefer 10s.

[Duster505]

Obviously its controversial - meaning it will be damaging to 10 man content. Thats no solution then. 25 man raiding already gives the best chance to progress in game and if ppl want to raid 10 rather then 25 man they should not be punished with lower item lvls. They are already punished by slower progress based on RNG on gear and higher chance to get items that the raid doesn't need.

I quit MOP already now cause there is very obvious that Blizzard has absolutly no vision about the future of the game. They screwed the game over on so many lvls in MOP - and thinking they can go back to 25 man with extra ilvl is best sign they have totally lost it.

[Deja Thoris]

Wouldn't it be more likely since, as you've already shown, this is a controversial decision?

He said in a tweet around the same day that it wouldnt be ilevel related.

I'm curious to see what it is but I'm betting its something that hasn't even been speculated on in this thread yet. Can't wait to see what it is though.

[aarjun]

Ever since they made 10 man drop the same iLvL gear, 25 man raiding has been on steady decline. The numbers are quite surprising. Taking just the first boss of MoP into account since it's the easiest and most accessible:

# of guilds that have killed Stone Guard in normal 10 man: 34846
# of guilds that have killed Stone Guard in normal 25 man: 2867

# of guilds that have killed Stone Guard in heroic 10 man: 7864
# of guilds that have killed Stone Guard in heroic 25 man: 1023

I am pretty sure they will not change iLvL. However, I think it could be an increase or addition of one or more of the following for 25 man raids: gold drop, elder's charm chance, mounts/pets/titles, valor (although they already did this), # of loot drops, xmog sets for clearing a raid in heroic mode, some benefits to alts for whose main has cleared a raid that week similar to valor.

[Duster505]

Perhaps 10 man items will only have two upgrade slots whereas 25 man items will have three upgrade slots.

Meaning that 25 man is easier.... Nice idea... lol

Blizzard will loose majority of their playerbase now if they punish 10 mans in any way. It sounds like thats what they are doing. So be ready for the bomb.

[HamSandwichFace]

I could say the same thing about "Let's just remove 25Man Heroic and let 25man being the "farm mode" while 10 man is the "Progress mode"

Except all the competition focusses around 25 man with Paragon as an exception.

[Deleted]

ilevel increase for 25 man
removal of shared lockout
increased drops in 25 man
increased VP cap for 25 mans (like arena and RBG for pvp)
removal of limits of BR, allow duplicate stacks of buffs, reduced CDs

obscure possibilities
flat out splitting 10s and 25s: 2 raids with only 10 setting, 2 with only 25 setting. Different unique loots, no lockouts to share, completely seperate with regards to world firsts (short of stand ins from a 25 man guild running the 10s at such a level that they can compete with dedicated 10 mans)
sort of split use of gear same as pvp power, gear has 10 man power and 25 man power so split the ilvl no shared lock outs but prevents 25 mans from owning 10 mans due to better gear since its 'nerfed'
Challenge mode style the gear in raids.


Any way of improving 25 mans will have a detrimental effect on 10s, as the shared lockout did to 25mans. Removal of shared lockout will make it easier for 25 man guilds to split to 10 mans than 2-3 10 man groups join to a 25man. Meaning 10 man guilds will merge properly to form a 25man guild.

[Kilpi]

One thing it probably isn't, given that he said it was going to be "controversial" is removing the shared lockout. Or higher iLvl gear. Those are things people are expecting and/or want to see.

Higher iLvl would be controversial, since only people doing 25man raids like it.

[Kisho]

They already stated they will not remove 25 man and blue posts suggest they will add things to make 25 man more popular, this thread is about what those things will be.

I know what they've said in the past, but it's still what I'd like to happen. Besides, they've changed their minds before: they can do it again.

Increased ilevel/difficulty for 25 mans would be terrible and just go to the other end of the spectrum, what we had in WotLK: 10 man raids nearly non-existent (strict 10 man anyway, not the ones where you ran both sizes in every week), with everyone going 25 man for the greater rewards.

For actual speculation on what I think they'll do: several times they've mentioned that 25 mans aren't being done because of the additional logistical issues, the organisation required. On an individual basis there's no difference whatsoever, but for a raid leader/team of officers it's a lot more hassle. So I think there's going to be something for the raid leaders/officers to reward them somehow.

No idea what they could do without creating a system open to rampant abuse, but hey.

[Halsynd]

It cant be higher ilvl, that would destroy 10mans, people raid for a reason, and its for the better gear they offer, putting higher ilvl on 25 mans only would make a majority of 10man raiders switch to 25mans.

Higher ilvl isnt the answer and i hope they're not going for that.

[Duster505]

This is what they have specifically said multiple times that they do not want to do. I would be disappointed if we went back to how things were before Cata where either you raided 25s or you were penalized in some fashion. And that is coming from someone who prefers 25s.

It should be a choice of which format you prefer. An actual choice. Not choosing which one provides the most benefit. Right now it is not, as the benefits of 10-mans outweigh those of 25s. That is what Blizzard needs to fix. Personally I don't think they can, and will eventually have to give up and pick only one raid format to go with. But I look forward to seeing them try.

It is an actual choise atm. More ppl prefer to do it 10 man and thats it. 25 man is still the best way to progress cause there are more items dropping in that. Meaning that the raid will be progressing faster 25 man than 10 man.

Just because some 25 mans are whining does not mean they are right. Many players will never touch 25 man for different reasons. One would be that it needs more powerfull pc to run without causing FPS issues. I know alot of ppl who dont play 25 man because of that. They still tag along in LFR cause it doesn't matter at all.

[Shink]

they already have a way, create a quest that requires you to kill the 25 version of a boss to receive those extra roll coins


^ just that pits 10 vs 25, it creates "WHY DO I HAVE TO RAID 25 VER FOR EXTRA LOOT OMG" again regardless of how little it changes

[Deleted]

They can't make 25 man too attractive now, or a lot of players will be very upset. It's easy to go from 25 to 10, but from 10 to 25 is a nearly impossible task, especially if half the 10 man guilds are trying to do so all at the same time.

[Kralljin]

Except all the competition focusses around 25 man with Paragon as an exception.

Yeah, but it's stupid to come up with an solution like "Heroic Raiders are now forced to raid 25man, 10man raids should merge with other 10man Guilds".

You can't put Guilds together like "now Kiss" and that's it.

[Zantos]

The ideal way to make 25 the only desired choice for every raider is to remove the heroic version of the 10m size. It's not like it was heroic before, so the best thing to do is to actively break every 10m guilds and merge them under a new banner, for 25m raids.

Why wouldn't anyone want that to happen?
-Break 3 or 4 10 man guilds where only 6-7 are actually decent to good players
-Make a reliable 25m roster where only the best players can raid

Everybody wins in this scenario.

That is not the ideal way. That suggestion is laughable at best. There are tons of people who cannot handle a 25man raid situation despite being the best. Face the facts, there are more 10m guilds out there then 25m because its easier to get 10 then 25 people to raid. Your suggestion would only serve to cost blizzard Thousands of angry players who do not Want to raid a 25 man but would be forced to if they want heroics. You honestly think that only the best can play in a 25m guild? Again, a laughable theory. You can carry 2-3 crappy dps. Maybe a crappy healer. 10m is where you want only the best, not 25. Ive done both raiding sizes, so I know just how much fail one person can be in a 25man and go unnoticed compared to being in a 10man.

Bottom line, this is not ideal to anyone but those already in a 25m or those who don't care about raiding. I suggest that they simply track raid progression and Increase the valor cap by X amount per bosses killed in 25man. Its a suggestion that the 25man raiders would feel and can use to their advantage that would not hinder 10mans to the point that they all quit or get upset. Just like with conquest for rated PvP. The further in you are, the more you get.

[Gritalian]

I honestly can't figure out what it would be. Every time someone has suggested higher leveled gear or more gear drops they've responded with how 25m, for the most part, is more taxing on officers than the raid itself, that its harder to recruit and more people management, and that they didn't want to reward the whole raid for the added work for a few.

Even in his response to someone asking what if they are just rewarded higher ilvl, his response is that it would then make 10m feel mandatory to switch, which it would.

They've already forced people to funnel into 10m by allowing that option in the first place and it doesn't appear they are willing to go back from that.

So what could it be that would be that controversial while not allowing a distinct gear incentive to switch back to 25m? I just can't think of anything... the only thing I can think of is breaking the shared raid lock out.

[fangless]

It cant be higher ilvl, that would destroy 10mans, people raid for a reason, and its for the better gear they offer, putting higher ilvl on 25 mans only would make a majority of 10man raiders switch to 25mans.

Higher ilvl isnt the answer and i hope they're not going for that.

So, people do 10m because it's easier to assemble for the same gear acquired? No way!

If they were that concerned with the loot, and can do 25, then what is the problem? That's their choice. If they can't do 25 because they legit can't get 25 people, then they do 10 and have fun with their friends anyway?

[JuicedawgYO]

Remove it entirely please! Go to a single raid size and focus all your raid development time on making excellent bosses, tuned for a single raid size, rather than re-tuning for multiple raid sizes as well as difficulties.

Ideally I'd love to go to 15 man raids, which scales up perfectly from 5 mans (1 tank 1 healer 3 DPS - 3 tanks 3 healers 9 DPS), but that probably won't happen. So just remove 25 mans and let's all go 10 man.

Blizzard are just giving themselves way too much work trying to cater to a very, VERY tiny section of the playerbase. I mean, hell, the total number of raiders is a tiny, insignificant amount as it is... the number of 25 man raiders is even smaller.

I would hate to see 25man removed. And so would a lot of others. I will go so far and say that the WoW pve "scene" will die out entirely if they remove 25 man Very selfish suggestion you bring to the table buddy, I sense that you are a 10man raider? What would all the 25man raiders do if blizzard removed 25man raiding? See? Yeah, bet you do, if you don't, you are just a giant noob douche... True story.