One raid-size to rule them all: why or why not?

[Nairobi]

So, by now we've all seen the new blue tweets about upcoming "controversial changes" :

Any news on 25men raiding and incentives for them? Numbers of guilds still dwindling, you mentioned a developer blog
We have an idea, but it's a bit controversial so we're not ready to spring it on you yet. (Source)

Could you give me a reason as to why 25man raids don't just straight up drop items that already are already 2/2 upgraded?
Because that would cause progression-oriented 10 player raids to feel like they had to switch to 25s to benefit from the ilevel. (Source)

Anyone can see that it's becoming more and more challenging to fairly balance and tune the mechanics of ever-evolving raids to be equally fair to both 10 and 25 man raiders. Now, of course as WOW players, it is not difficult to find something to complain about, but the back and forth arguments and pissing contests of 10 vs 25 are coming to a head. Blizz has tried to intervene, and apparently has some plans in place, but reading all of the suggestions on these forums and other areas made me wonder if we are not headed for one master raid size?

Now, a change as drastic as this would only be applicable in a new expansion, so it's VERY implausable we'd see it within the next 12-18 months, however it is certainly not without precedent. BC saw the reduction of raid size by nearly 50%, from 40man to 25man. There was uproar at first, but the playerbase adapted and accepted (minus Kara, which was wildly popular due to its level of difficulty, early availability and 10man format). Fast-forward to WotLK and we see 10man implemented in a more meaningful way, albeit at a notable power decrease. 2 years later and 10man is on par with (or debatably ahead of) 25man content.

So, since Blizz has stated that they want EVERYONE to be able to experience ALL of their content that they work on, do you think we are on the verge on another paradigm shift in raiding? A move to one, single raid size? If so, what should that size be? If not, why keep the 2 options we have now? I've added a poll with the most commonly held ideals, but I'm interested to see what everyone thinks about the future of raiding. I've kept the assumption that groups will remain 5man size for this purpose.

[Ulgrim]

I'd be happy if they changed raid sizes to somewhere between 15 and 20. Only having to tune one raid size will allow them more time to devote to other things. It also happens to be one of things on my very large wow changes wish list.

[Demeia]

I voted one raid size but I don't think it's happening. Really... Should they really be changing the social dynamic again? Cataclysm absolutely messed everyone up.

[brirrspliff]

10 man raids are in the same boat with flying mounts. bad decision, but they can't reverse it because it's so convenient. in the us and the eu, they even made loot the same in both formats. it's sad, but it's like it is now.

[Anjerith]

I would like to see 15s, but that could just as easily kill guilds as it could help the raid population.

10 and 25 really works out for the best, as it gives Guilds of all size a chance to gain power and reputation. With 15, we would end up with waitlists for the larger groups downsizing and the potential for not enough attendance for the smaller Guilds used to filling a 10 man sheet.

[Nairobi]

10 man raids are in the same boat with flying mounts. bad decision, but they can't reverse it because it's so convenient. in the us and the eu, they even made loot the same in both formats. it's sad, but it's like it is now.

How is it in any way concrete? I mean, we've got Blues on record as saying that they wished they never introduced flying mounts, or that they never introduced arena, and I can agree that removing those aspects is nigh-impossible at this stage of the game. Especially so after redesigning the entire game world to be flyer-friendly in Cata, and the amount of press behind arena tournaments (even though arena balance is now laughable, but thats another topic)...

However, raid size has been manipulated before. Granted, it has always been transitioned between expansions, as I noted in the OP, so if you made your post to mean that "they can't reverse it RIGHT NOW" then I apologize. But, if you meant that they are stuck with this size forever, I hardly think that's the case.

[Dole4011]

I am not a fan of taking choice away from people so I prefer keeping both options on the table. Let people run what they like.

A drawback is that it takes extra time and effort properly tuning the two, and even then, there will be disparities from encounter to encounter. For now, it seems there is enough demand for both to warrant keeping them both despite the inability to balance it perfectly (there would even be disagreements as to what is truly balanced). Also, despite cries to the contrary, the overall difficulty disparity between the two seems relatively minor (and doesn't always favor the same format either).

As it is, you can run 10 or 25 man without penalty. (One could argue that 25 is penalized by having a harder time organizing a group, but that is part and parcel with running a 25 man.) I don't see how scrapping one or the other or merging the two is an improvement upon that.

Merging seems like a sloppy and unnecessary compromise.

I think both 10 and 25 should be treated as legitimate, end-game options (ie, offer the same loot). I'm not personally bothered by vanity items or conveniences being extended to 25 man groups out of consideration for the extra hassle of the extended roster (pets, mounts, extra gold, consumables, etc), but that is because I have no need for them; as it is, they already get more gear if I'm not mistaken. However, in principle, I do find it inconsistent to proclaim a preference for a 25 man format and then ask for incentives to justify the effort.

[kangamooster]

AFAIK blues have said 15m is an option they're looking into, although it'll probably be in future expansions, almost 100% guaranteed not to be within the current one.

[Deleted]

According to the tweets, i feel that the 'one size fits all' theory is busted, as they don't want to touch 10 man, or at least they don't want to get rid of it.

I don't know that they are cooking there at Blizzard, but i would approach the problem from the other way.
Don't try to fit the raiders into the system, but tailor the system around the raiders... and the amount of raiders who wants to play on that particular evening And this brings me to a flexible and fully scaleable system, going from 10 man all the way to, say 30.
As for balance we already use 2 tanks for 10 man and 25 man, so take those 2 tanks, 3 healers and 5 dps as the base for raid, just lke a 10 man raid, and add 1 healer for every 4 dps. This means 17 dps and 6 healers at 25 man, which is commonly used. In this scaling system the bosses simply should a.) have more HP as you add more people to the raid, b.) do more damage per every 5th person, who is supposed to a healer.

This would help eliminating the problem of dwindling number of guilds and raids capable to muster 25 active players, while preserving the option for the smaller guilds to keep their 10 man format unharmed.

[Deleted]

kill them all, bring back 40 mans with properly tuned encounters so that everyone has to pull their weight and have a good amount of loot drops.

[Deleted]

I'd totally support raids going 15 man only.
1. it would kill this 25 vs 10 man thing.
2. it would give developers easier time to balance stuff.

[fangless]

Not sure why they ever split the groups. It's something that wasn't needed, no one asked for and now they can't go back on.

We got 25 raids because apparently it's too hard to get 40 people. Now we have 10 because it's too hard to get 25. One day it'll be 3 man groups because 5 is too hard.

I'd totally support raids going 15 man only.
1. it would kill this 25 vs 10 man thing.
2. it would give developers easier time to balance stuff.

Because then it's a slippery slope until this is a single player MMO. This has been a steady path since vanilla :P

[jayinjersey]

They can do this at any time...it's easy POOF 5.2 raids are now 15m

It would even be ok since you could say the first teir is 10m to gear up for T2 at 15m


anyone remember this pattern from say TBC? Kara to Gruls to SSC to SW

[Gurbz]

They can do this at any time...it's easy POOF 5.2 raids are now 15m

It would even be ok since you could say the first teir is 10m to gear up for T2 at 15m


anyone remember this pattern from say TBC? Kara to Gruls to SSC to SW

The pain caused in the very transition you mention is part of why they will not do a change that large mid-expansion. Trying to navigate the transition from 10s to 25s in T4 killed a lot of guilds. This would do the same as people reorganize to the new format. 10-man guilds now have to find 5 more people. 25-man guilds now have to drop 10.

[Maelle]

Not sure why they ever split the groups. It's something that wasn't needed, no one asked for and now they can't go back on.

We got 25 raids because apparently it's too hard to get 40 people. Now we have 10 because it's too hard to get 25. One day it'll be 3 man groups because 5 is too hard.



Because then it's a slippery slope until this is a single player MMO. This has been a steady path since vanilla :P

You honestly believe no one wanted or asked for smaller equally tuned raids? Blizzard just did it for the shits and giggles to annoy you I suppose :P

Also I think you confuse "too hard" with undesirable amounts of effort / or people prefer more tight knit groups.

WoW and Raiding is a game, that most of the community play for amusement rather than balls to the wall progression and sweat. 10 mans are easier in some respects for smaller and sometimes less serious groups of friends to organise, without being pushed into a large group they have little interest in being involved with for the sake of raiding.

[Kaleredar]

They can do this at any time...it's easy POOF 5.2 raids are now 15m

It would even be ok since you could say the first teir is 10m to gear up for T2 at 15m


anyone remember this pattern from say TBC? Kara to Gruls to SSC to SW

Except picking up 15 extra people while dealing with guild poaching isn't exactly good design.


The problem with merging raids to 15 is the 10 people in a 25 man guild that you're basically telling to go screw themselves. Banking on them being scooped up by a 10 man guild to make everything okay seems... shallow.

[Layuth]

In my opinion, you have to keep them both. I would love to see 10man reverted back to the little stepchild as was the case in WoTLK. Unfortunately if you revert back to 25man only, all the bad players who got kicked from 25mans and found success in 10mans will nerd rage. It is a lose lose situation indeed.

Therefore my vote for the best overall solution is 15man raids. Much easier to handle than 25man and less dead weight to carry for the non-top100 guilds. So what if 10mans have to go recruiting, 25mans have to do that on a daily basis now.

[Lethey Alexandros]

The pain caused in the very transition you mention is part of why they will not do a change that large mid-expansion. Trying to navigate the transition from 10s to 25s in T4 killed a lot of guilds. This would do the same as people reorganize to the new format. 10-man guilds now have to find 5 more people. 25-man guilds now have to drop 10.

The thing here is that most 10 man guilds have 5 extra people sitting arounf wanting to raid. This is a very common case on my server. Even our 25man guilds have an extra 5 sitting around so honestly the transition to 15 man raids would not be as bad as alot of people are trying to make it sound. The only real bump I see is haveing to work 5 more people into the group synergy for a 10 man going to a new 15 man model and for 10 raiders from the 25man guild to work in a new 5 they may or may not have raided with.

From a guild leaders stand point, I would love 15man guilds becuse I hate benching the current 5 people who are my replacement raiders becuse they are fantastic players so it would be great to bring them in on progression instead of makeing them sit out and waite for us to start rotations.

[Deleted]

They really need to step up this time and make one raid size. 15 sounds pretty good imo. This nonsense has to stop, I presume a lot of people will be angry and will threaten to cancel, but let's be serious - how many are actually going to cancel over something like this that affects everyone? I say very little.

[Gurbz]

The thing here is that most 10 man guilds have 5 extra people sitting arounf wanting to raid. This is a very common case on my server. Even our 25man guilds have an extra 5 sitting around so honestly the transition to 15 man raids would not be as bad as alot of people are trying to make it sound. The only real bump I see is haveing to work 5 more people into the group synergy for a 10 man going to a new 15 man model and for 10 raiders from the 25man guild to work in a new 5 they may or may not have raided with.

From a guild leaders stand point, I would love 15man guilds becuse I hate benching the current 5 people who are my replacement raiders becuse they are fantastic players so it would be great to bring them in on progression instead of makeing them sit out and waite for us to start rotations.

I agree that it needs to happen. Honestly they should have done it for MoP. But it is to large a change to implement mid-expansion, which is what the person I quoted was saying they should do.