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  1. #441
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cybran View Post
    No, it's not. Some people just don't realized how bad it was, because they were likely party members and/or snitches. Like the people that used to run the stores in my town. They stole stuff and used to treat people like shit, because they had a little power. Now i can just walk 3 minutes to the next store, but when everything is state owned? What then?
    Walk to the next store and buy nothing cause you can't afford primary goods? Ok then.
    Cause this is what's happening.

  2. #442
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdbjr3314 View Post
    Communism/Socialism is for the people not the Communist/Socialist. They grow fat while the people have to contend with the mandates of the Government. For example the people have to wait in line to get food or clothes where as the leaders have it brought to them and do not have to ration.
    Communism and Socialism are not equal. Any modern democracy has some sort of socialism because like it not the government is actually for the people. So what some US citizens might think it's a socialist and unthinkable compromise as in free heathcare works good in the vast majority of other countries. You can't have a "pure" democracy where none gives a fuck about the other as then the state will not function.

    Of course you pay taxes, you except something in return, some will benefit sooner then other, some more then other. But that's just how the government functions, how the unsigned contract works.

    Helping in proving free or reduced services for your citizens can be called socialism, but it's a normal and decent thing.

    But restraining markets, limiting the options of your citizens or how they should behave, think, act and reign with one party, one dictator that's communism, and it's a very bad thing.
    Last edited by mmoc0127ab56ff; 2013-01-03 at 05:04 PM.

  3. #443
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    I'm having a real hard time with judgmental statements. Especially when they come from people who either never been in such situation at all, and can only rely on media reports whatsoever. And don't be naive. The cold war was not one sided. BOTH sides spilled out enough anti propaganda.

    Truth of the matter is, that we never had true communism at work. True communism would be a wonderful system. Unfortunately human nature gets in the way.
    What we refer to today have hardly been communist countries. That's been totalitarian regimes, that were based rather loosely on communist principles.
    There was a lot of stuff wrong with those regimes, hence why there was a lot of stuff wrong with their society and the provision of supplies and the like.
    But since the grass just isn't always greener on the other side, it's the same way here too.
    Just like people can argue that Saddam was good for keeping a peace amongst the Iraqi people, even if it was a peace he forced onto them, one can also say that there were people who in fact have been better off during the "communist regime" times.
    Would I want to live in such regime, under such conditions, hell no... I wouldn't mind to try true communism tho.
    But true communism doesn't imprison it's people. Yet I on the other hand, stood there at the fence in Bavaria. 10 meters tall, watch towers ever 100 meter. Auto-shooting systems that would fire at everything that moves any close to the fence, within 50 meters distance, on the other side of the fence. Death-Strip it's been called.
    All whats missing was mines, and I suppose they didn't put them down, to avoid to have to repair the fence every now and then.
    No, that wasn't communism what I saw. That was an oversized concentration camp. Also known as Eastern Germany, at that time.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-03 at 11:34 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by naturestorm View Post
    Communism and Socialism are not equal. Any modern democracy has some sort of socialism because like it not the government is actually for the people. So what some US citizens might think it's a socialist and unthinkable compromise as in free heathcare works good in the vast majority of other countries. You can't have a "pure" democracy where none gives a fuck about the other as then the state will not function.

    Of course you pay taxes, you except something in return, some will benefit sooner then other, some more then other. But that's just how the government functions, how the unsigned contract works.

    Helping in proving free or reduced services for your citizens can be called socialism, but it's a normal and decent thing.

    But restraining markets, limiting the options of your citizens or how they should behave, think, act and reign with one party, one dictator that's communism, and it's a very bad thing.
    I am afraid that a good portion of many US citizens approach of social topics or socialism are remains of the negative propaganda towards the Soviet regime. It is what it is. Those two were the main protagonists of the cold war.. It was Soviets vs America.
    And both sides weren't tired to taint their messages, painting the other side as the incarnation of all evil.
    But just like the Soviets lied about how evil capitalism is, as much was the message thrown out about how evil or bad socialism is.
    None of the two is true. Neither capitalism nor socialism are evil.
    In fact.. Plenty countries today funding their social benefits for their population through capitalistic means. Those people are usually very happy with their living quality.

  4. #444
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crashdummy View Post
    Meanwhile in Capitalism leaders live with the exact same style of living than their people, right?

    There isnt a single rich leader while people in his country die of hunger, right?

    Want to know a funny thing? No one dies of hunger in Cuba for example (and by this i dont say Cuba is perfect), while plenty of people dies of hunger in every single capitalist country you can name.

    Capitalysm has its problems, many of them, but social injustice is nto one of them, Capitalysm has by farm a lot more social injustice.

    The biggest problem of Communism is lack of freedom.
    It is Freedom that is the way. Guess what most people that starve or have not in most free nations end up in the situation because of a choice they made somewhere in life (I am not including the handicap or mental challenged in this cause they usually had no choice). Most of your rich in free nations got there cause they had the freedom to work hard and made something of there self and usually a product or service that society wanted (Supply and Demand). I came from a poor South Georgia family but a hard working family, and as I was soon enough to work I went with my dad and worked every break I had from school to pay for my own clothes and recreational things. Nothing was handed to me. I paid for my own college and by the age of 24 I owned my own business that I sold 3 yrs later for double profit and moved to Florida to work for years as a chef before coming back to my hometown to get a very high paying job as an IT manager at big paper mill. This would not have been possible for me under communist rule. Freedom allowed this not government.

  5. #445
    Quote Originally Posted by jdbjr3314 View Post
    It is Freedom that is the way. Guess what most people that starve or have not in most free nations end up in the situation because of a choice they made somewhere in life (I am not including the handicap or mental challenged in this cause they usually had no choice). Most of your rich in free nations got there cause they had the freedom to work hard and made something of there self and usually a product or service that society wanted (Supply and Demand). I came from a poor South Georgia family but a hard working family, and as I was soon enough to work I went with my dad and worked every break I had from school to pay for my own clothes and recreational things. Nothing was handed to me. I paid for my own college and by the age of 24 I owned my own business that I sold 3 yrs later for double profit and moved to Florida to work for years as a chef before coming back to my hometown to get a very high paying job as an IT manager at big paper mill. This would not have been possible for me under communist rule. Freedom allowed this not government.
    You really think people are pooor because they chose to?

    Most of the Rich people are rich because their family was rich, and most rich families got rich because they took advantage of others to their benefits, or because they got land taken from natives, or because they had friends in a monarchy/goverment/etc.

    Not everyone have the same opportunities. The son of Rockefeller has much more alternatives than the son of a minimal wages temporary worked in a plantation which will probably have to work to help his father do his job.

    Again, anecdotal evidense is useless, yes, a few people have luck and ascend in the social stair, But BILLONS of hard working people work even 16 hours straight without earning enough to have any social mobility, because that's what capitalism is.

    In a comunism, in theory, you would have everything you need, and you wouldnt feel a need to consume everything you can like a lot of people in the frist world countries have (and that is only possible because of the cheap work in the third world countries sustaining their live style). I dont think this can be applied today under any modern society. We need to grow up as societies a lot more to even think about it.

    If you really think a poor kid in Somalia, Sudan, or any other third world country has the same opportunities than a rich person, then you are too naive.

    In Capitalism, those who have the Capital are very likely to keep having it, even without much hard work, and those that are poor are very likely to stay that way, no matter how hard they work.
    Last edited by Crashdummy; 2013-01-03 at 06:57 PM.

  6. #446
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crashdummy View Post
    You really think people are pooor because they chose to?

    Most of the Rich people are rich because their family was rich, and most rich families got rich because they took advantage of others to their benefits, or because they got land taken from natives, or because they had friends in a monarchy/goverment/etc.

    Not everyone have the same opportunities. The son of Rockefeller has much more alternatives than the son of a minimal wages temporary worked in a plantation which will probably have to work to help his father do his job.

    Again, anecdotal evidense is useless, yes, a few people have luck and ascend in the social stair, But BILLONS of hard working people work even 16 hours straight without earning enough to have any social mobility, because that's what capitalism is.

    In a comunism, in theory, you would have everything you need, and you wouldnt feel a need to consume everything you can like a lot of people in the frist world countries have (and that is only possible because of the cheap work in the third world countries sustaining their live style). I dont think this can be applied today under any modern society. We need to grow up as societies a lot more to even think about it.

    If you really think a poor kid in Somalia, Sudan, or any other third world country has the same opportunities than a rich person, then you are too naive.

    In Capitalism, those who have the Capital are very likely to keep having it, even without much hard work, and those that are poor are very likely to stay that way, no matter how hard they work.
    I never said anyone choose to be poor way to take my words and twist the good job I said " Guess what most people that starve or have not in most free nations end up in the situation because of a choice they made somewhere in life (I am not including the handicap or mental challenged in this cause they usually had no choice)." Be the way Rockefeller himself started with nothing to become the richest man in the world, so did Vanderbilt, and Carnage. Only 5% of the rich in america inherited there wealth. The rest my friend was earned. And by the again 3rd world countries are usually not free countries, they have despots and dictators running the country. So try reading again before you miss-quote me for you own political gain.

  7. #447
    The problem isn't the form but if the peoples that live in the country have the guts to keep those in the gov in check; the main problem nowdays is that peoples are passive, they still whine on forums but never act. You think that your gov is doing it wrong and no matter who you vote nothing gonna change? Well it's time to start to pick up the good ol' and act.

  8. #448
    Quote Originally Posted by jdbjr3314 View Post
    I never said anyone choose to be poor way to take my words and twist the good job I said " Guess what most people that starve or have not in most free nations end up in the situation because of a choice they made somewhere in life (I am not including the handicap or mental challenged in this cause they usually had no choice)." Be the way Rockefeller himself started with nothing to become the richest man in the world, so did Vanderbilt, and Carnage. Only 5% of the rich in america inherited there wealth. The rest my friend was earned. And by the again 3rd world countries are usually not free countries, they have despots and dictators running the country. So try reading again before you miss-quote me for you own political gain.
    And 99% of statistic in internet are made up.

    Rockefeller stated as a middle class man, yes (not poor), but all his inheritance will be rich probably for a long time. Most third world countries are in fact free countries, so i am afraid your disrespect to them is biased. Every country in Latin America (except Cuba and some people debate that too) today is a free country, most of the countries in Asia are free. I think all the countries in Oceania are free too. Africa stays as the one with less free countries, but many of them are free too.

    And you are mistaken, most of the people that are poor are not by choices made by their own, they are poor because their family was poor and they couldnt change their fate.

    Again, go tell the 8 year old kids helping their fathers on plantations that a choice they made sometime made them be poor, or the kids working on textiles factories in Asia.

    Again, you are too naive, you need to get a shower of reality.

  9. #449
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crashdummy View Post
    And 99% of statistic in internet are made up.

    Rockefeller stated as a middle class man, yes (not poor), but all his inheritance will be rich probably for a long time. Most third world countries are in fact free countries, so i am afraid your disrespect to them is biased. Every country in Latin America (except Cuba and some people debate that too) today is a free country, most of the countries in Asia are free. I think all the countries in Oceania are free too. Africa stays as the one with less free countries, but many of them are free too.

    And you are mistaken, most of the people that are poor are not by choices made by their own, they are poor because their family was poor and they couldnt change their fate.

    Again, go tell the 8 year old kids helping their fathers on plantations that a choice they made sometime made them be poor, or the kids working on textiles factories in Asia.

    Again, you are too naive, you need to get a shower of reality.

    And what you need my friend is a dose of hard work and hope. I believe all no matter where you are from can strive to be better as long as there is a beacon of freedom some where in this world all can achieve what ever there heart desires. That is not possible under communism.. When ever one is the same, no one stands out.

  10. #450
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    Quote Originally Posted by bufferunderrun View Post
    The problem isn't the form but if the peoples that live in the country have the guts to keep those in the gov in check; the main problem nowdays is that peoples are passive, they still whine on forums but never act. You think that your gov is doing it wrong and no matter who you vote nothing gonna change? Well it's time to start to pick up the good ol' and act.
    You do that. Me? I happen to think that the developed world is currently living under some of the best governance the world has ever seen. That's not to say that it doesn't screw up, but it's a hell of a lot better than a lot of the things we've done in the past.
    'Twas a cutlass swipe or an ounce of lead
    Or a yawing hole in a battered head
    And the scuppers clogged with rotting red
    And there they lay I damn me eyes
    All lookouts clapped on Paradise
    All souls bound just contrarywise, yo ho ho and a bottle of rum!

  11. #451
    Quote Originally Posted by Wikiy View Post
    Edit: I'd also like to add i was referring to Sweden as an example of a country that has more people that are altruistic enough for communism than those that are greedy enough for capitalism. Not a pseudo-communist totalitarian system like China or North Korea for which we have no idea how altruistic people are there. So i wasn't even drawing a West-East parallel.
    We've never really had a strong communist movement here, it was always more social democracy, most of our socialists didn't believe in a forced revolution or anything like that, so what one would call communists have never been more then a fringe movement, stronger in some municiplities, but I don't think they've been in the parliament ever. At least not in my lifetime(28 years).

    Our socialist movement was what later became the Social democratic party. Which still is the biggest party(the moderates-rightwing are the 2nd biggest), but they are far from communists. We've had a rightwing-liberal government(I vote FP, the liberal party) in power for the last 6 years though. The most left leaning party we got in parliament is the Vänster(Left) party, the social democrates are left, but more to the center. I don't really like the "Vänster"(left) party, but they are not communists. The Right sometimes try to score cheap points by calling them that though.

    Our communist parties generally don't get more then 2% of the votes in the partliament elections. You need 4% to get seats in the parliament. They do get higher % in certain local elections though.

    Business, entrepenourship and hard work has always been highly valued, and most people are of the opinion that hard work pays off, which it does. Interesting fact is that it's actually both cheaper and much easier to start your own business here compared to for example the US. I think people are sometimes a bit misinformed and think we live in a crazy draconian sociaty that regulates everything to shit, while in reality there are often less regulations but smarter ones in place then in more "capitalistic" nations.

    Think tanks like the Heritage Foundation actually gives my country top marks when it comes to easy of doing business and business freedom. ;P

    What you could say is that most people and pretty much all political parties in my country understand the value in taxes and that we have a responsibility to contribute to sociaty for the greater good. Which also goes along with the fact that we got quite a high trust in our government officials and politicians, government accountability and transparency is also something organizations like the Heritage Foundation gives us top marks in. I think we've had 5 ministers removed over the last 6 years because they did things that the public disliked, last one was our Minister of defense 2012, it was some shady deal in Saudi Arabia with an arms/weapons factory we helped them set up.

    Trust, accountability and transparency is absolutely vital if you want to tax people as high as you do here.
    The nerve is called the "nerve of awareness". You cant dissect it. Its a current that runs up the center of your spine. I dont know if any of you have sat down, crossed your legs, smoked DMT, and watch what happens... but what happens to me is this big thing goes RRRRRRRRRAAAAAWWW! up my spine and flashes in my brain... well apparently thats whats going to happen if I do this stuff...

  12. #452
    Quote Originally Posted by jdbjr3314 View Post
    And what you need my friend is a dose of hard work and hope. I believe all no matter where you are from can strive to be better as long as there is a beacon of freedom some where in this world all can achieve what ever there heart desires. That is not possible under communism.. When ever one is the same, no one stands out.
    Again, you belive that, but that is not real. You need a shower of reality. There are a lot of people in free countries without any real posibility of social mobility.

    I even gave examples to you. And i dont know why you mention communism to me, when i said real communism cant be implemented in current society and the practical communisms implemented were bad.

    Also, i dont think people standing out is a neccesity. I belive some people feel the necesity to stand out, but that is because we havent grown up as a society enough, we are still young.

    Some day, people's neccesity of knowing no one dies of hunger will be bigger than people's neccesity of standing out.

  13. #453
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uzi View Post
    Even if it was the best the world has ever seen, it's got potential to be 1000x better.
    Without having a good roadmap to how, it's certainly not wise to try to forcibly overthrow the best governance in history with a freaking pitchfork.
    'Twas a cutlass swipe or an ounce of lead
    Or a yawing hole in a battered head
    And the scuppers clogged with rotting red
    And there they lay I damn me eyes
    All lookouts clapped on Paradise
    All souls bound just contrarywise, yo ho ho and a bottle of rum!

  14. #454
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    This article really depressed me with the mindset many people have today. The sad thing is, at least in America, we are moving towards a more socialist/communist society. The government and our dependency on the government has never been higher than it is today. Historians always proclaim that "history is bound to repeat itself." I will never complain about paying my taxes because I love my country, but listening to people like this talk really bothers me. I was raised on the principals of you work for what you get.

  15. #455
    Quote Originally Posted by RICH1471 View Post
    The food shortage alone tells me that communism didn't work for your country. If you have a full belly, you are warm at night and are entertained, you really have a good life.
    One of my favorite quotes is "Every government is only 3 meals away from a revolution". ^_^

  16. #456
    Americans hate Communism because they have so much capitalism in their systems.
    Hell 90% of them don't even understand proper communism.

  17. #457
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    Quote Originally Posted by mookspal View Post
    This article really depressed me with the mindset many people have today. The sad thing is, at least in America, we are moving towards a more socialist/communist society. The government and our dependency on the government has never been higher than it is today. Historians always proclaim that "history is bound to repeat itself." I will never complain about paying my taxes because I love my country, but listening to people like this talk really bothers me. I was raised on the principals of you work for what you get.
    You get what you work for in a socialist society as well. It's only your tax money that goes to the public sector, which it does already even though it's at a lower scale. You still get to keep your old salary which is still better than those who don't work, you still get to keep the stuff you buy, there's still free trade etc. You also get free education and free healthcare.

    I can understand to a certain degree that Americans don't want the government to have more power, but seriously, with more and more socialism inevitably getting into the American society, the Republicans, or at least it's modern form, will be pretty much snuffed out, which will eliminate a lot of the fucking wackoos your country has, and while the Democrats aren't the best, they're still a lot better than any crazy ass religious fanfare.

    And for the last time, socialism isn't fucking communism. Anytime you say communism is the same as socialism a kitten dies.

  18. #458
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    Quote Originally Posted by semaphore View Post
    Strawman again. Who said humans are "entirely driven" by natural instincts? Nobody. Except you.

    If the whole basis of your argument is still "there is no human nature IF I change the meaning of human nature into some bullshit that nobody actually use!" then there's not much debate to be had.

    No it isn't. We instinctively dislike the smell of our own excretions, that's why there is no culture where you pee and defecate on your own bed.

    No, you're cherrypicking the facts to suit your argument. Human are social animals. We naturally seek social interactions. Culture and marketing influence many to seek a specific type of interaction (on facebook), but they do not provide the impetus for socialisation in the first place. Think about what you just wrote. Nurture may be responsible for you wanting facebook friends in order to appear cool, but why do you want to appear cool in the first place?

    Gaining status in the eyes of our peers is an inherently social thing.

    What argument? You claimed that human nature doesn't exist. I challenged you to provide evidence. Dont' move the goal post to "problem with your reasoning" when you still haven't been able to show that human nature doesn't exist other than 1) pretending it means something it doesn't, i.e. strawman or 2) completely ignore reality.


    I called them like I see them. Don't use strawmans if you don't want to be called on it.


    How overly dramatic of you to feign outrage just because I'm not willing to do your homework for you. You claimed there is no human nature. You need to establish how feral children supports that point - not just "oh look X which means I'm right. Just because".
    Well semaphore, you’ve made me curious with, at least to me, that very aggressive post So if I may be impudent to ask of you: What is Human Nature? Because the reason why Knight Gil said there was no human nature, was that you claimed there were one in the first place. So you’ve made so very curious to what you view as human nature, and I think it is also in your interest to define human nature as you see it if you want a proper (in your view) answer from Knight Gil to why he thinks there is no human nature. So please, if I may ask that of you, give us your definition/view of human nature so the debate can be more specific. If you have already made a definition of human nature, then I’m sorry, must have missed it.

    Because for now I think I remember you saying that human nature include being a social animal which dislike the smell of our own excretions.
    And if that’s the definition, the it would seem that capitalism, and with that the endless and dominant praise of economy, would not be the best way to make something where social animals would thrive.



    Quote Originally Posted by RicardoZ View Post
    There's a lot of people in Chile who would agree with you and say that the government of Allende was the greatest point in this country's history, but it's mostly kids who weren't alive in 1973 when a loaf a bread cost about $10 and you could only get one pack of cigarettes per week because the government was rationing them out because there was a shortage. (Meanwhile the friends of Allende could get all they wanted because they were "special" and "deserved" the products "more" than the rest of the people)

    You had to wait in line at stores for hours to buy vegetables or fruit and you had to pay the absurd prices that the government demanded for "their" products even though you were the one who was working 15 hours a day to produce those goods.

    The only way to get anything was to be best friends with the government and pray that they will pick you to be wealthy and let you be in charge of some business, because they won't let you start up your own and work hard. It was like a big gated rep grind: No matter how hard you work or how much you try, they put the limit on how much you can acheive.

    Yea...communism pretty much sucks. I know it's all fashionable for Americans and Europeans kids to like it and wear Che Guevara t-shirts and everything and be rebellious against capitalism, but...Communism really REALLY sucks.

    There is a poet from China named Kelly Tsai who talks about this phenomenon of rich American and Euro kids be enamored with communism, I think she is right:
    Now, since you’re from Chile you can probably help me out here.
    I thought the issue with Allende was that as soon as he came to power US started to influence different factors in the country since they had major interest in some things in Chile. Furthermore US started a campaign against Allende to take him out of power. It was also, or maybe mainly, a part of an economic experiment to see, what later would be described as neoliberalism, Miltons ideas in action. Am I’m completely brainwashed?

    And the “communism” you describe, sounds more to me as something not quite the same as the thought of Marx. But maybe I’m wrong. What do you think?

  19. #459
    Quote Originally Posted by Syxz View Post
    So if I may be impudent to ask of you: What is Human Nature?
    It's a set of psychological and behavioural traits that is regarded to be common to all of humanity, independent of culture. You know it's an actual term that you can find in the dictionary, right? It's not like I just made up a new phrase.

    it would seem that capitalism, and with that the endless and dominant praise of economy, would not be the best way to make something where social animals would thrive.
    That's a non sequitur. Capitalism at its core is simply the production of goods and services for profit and private ownership. There is no reason why capitalism is incompatible with the fact that humans are social animals.

  20. #460
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    Quote Originally Posted by semaphore View Post
    It's a set of psychological and behavioural traits that is regarded to be common to all of humanity, independent of culture. You know it's an actual term that you can find in the dictionary, right? It's not like I just made up a new phrase.
    Yes of course I know it an actual term, don’t think so low about your fellow posters. But is there cohesion between all interpretations of human nature? Probably not. So how am I going to know when I’ve founds the one which you think is correct? And that is why I again must be quite rude and ask you to elaborate on “a set of psychological and behavioural traits that is regarded to be common to all of humanity, independent of culture.”, since it would make it clear what your interpretation of human nature is, or what definition you use when talking about it.


    Quote Originally Posted by semaphore View Post
    That's a non sequitur. Capitalism at its core is simply the production of goods and services for profit and private ownership. There is no reason why capitalism is incompatible with the fact that humans are social animals.
    Well, couldn’t capitalism also be said to include, maybe enforce, or perhaps create, increasing individuality? You said that “Capitalism at its core is simply the production of goods and services for profit and private ownership.”, if I have a private ownership of something, then that ownership must belong to my person. As that I cannot see how that relates well to being social animals. Same with profit. Profit for who? Me, of course. Or at least, profit for the individual, and perhaps the corporation the individual own.
    Unless of course you view different groups in the social environment as different social groups which compete against each other?

    Am I’m completely wrong on this line of thought? (if yes, then please explain why, I love to learn what people thinks about all kinds of things so )

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