Ghostcrawler tweet about 25 man, let the speculation begin!

[Venant]

They should either have 25 man drop partially upgraded gear (maybe 1/2 upgraded not the full 8 lvls) or perhaps have the items have a % chance to be upgraded, something that doesn't give 25 mans outright better items that cannot be attained in 10 man but does give a slight perk to doing the logistically more challenging 25 man.

[brunnor]

You pretty much lose legitimacy in your argument when you say "10 man is not a legitimate format." I thought 40 mans sucked because I was part of the 15 or so people carrying the whole group, but I don't suggest 40 mans were illegitimate content.

I wouldn't mind 25s having different skins for their gear, but I don't think that'd ever happen as Blizz already thinks they spend too many resources on raiding assets which not enough people see.

I would mind a bit more with unique titles and achievements, but that's because I'm a title/achievement whore. It could probably work.

Better gear is right out.

I'm telling you, make the smaller heroic size the "hardcore" size, make the bigger heroic size easier by a discernible amount but still hard (by design, not just in an argument between 10s and 25s) but drop the same gear. So if you take the effort of organization, you get the epic feeling, you have a better chance of the shinies because it's easier.

The "competition" in WoW is completely player driven. So if they say "Hey, 10 mans are hardcore now, you need one person solo healing a phase while your other healers go solo heal something else, you need one person kiting without getting hit for the whole encounter, etc, etc," and basically dial up the things that can make 10s hard (individual gimmicks with wipe-capability), the competition will flow towards 10 mans. It's already this way in parts of Asia, where 10 mans are considered more hardcore, but I think us NA/Euro types would need it for to actually be unbalanced for it to happen.

The main critique of this might be that you lose some sort of "epic" feeling losing 15 people in the process, but I think 10 people performing ridiculous feats in symphony can keep that epic feel. Hell, you only have 11 in football. Encounter spaces can be smaller, there can be moving mechanics (platforming, etc) because you don't have to worry about more people probably failing it, etc.

If football got cut down to a 2 or 3 person game would it feel the same? Football at 11 players is raiding at 40. Right now we have 6-7man football(25man) and 2-3 person(10man) football. Funny enough 7 man is actually a real football style, while less enjoyable and "big" as the full 11, it still has a place. The physical number of people isn't what makes things epic, it is all based around perspective.

Making 10man the hardcore size would ruin the game pretty quick for a lot of people, like myself.

[RollTide]

Here is what it will NOT be

1. Higher ilvls for 25mans
2. Higher drop rates for 25mans

They have already said they do not want to do anything that makes 10s feel forced to do 25s.

I believe GC gave a clue a few weeks ago when he said something to the effect that it was only the LEADERS of 25man guilds that had more responsiblity. 25 man raids are not harder.. a normal joe-blow member of a 25 man raid is not harder than a member from a 10 man. ONLY the few people in charge of the raid have the added work.

My hunch is they are going to find a way to have 25 man raids indicate who the leaders are, and then give the leaders some perks.

That doesn't solve the problem though. Whatever they do will have to effect everyone, not just the leaders of the raid. Oh great, now I have an incentive to run a 25m. But I still don't have the bodies to raid with. Its got to be loot related. And a mount or some separate achieves wont cut it.

Whatever they do is going to piss off 10m raiders. That much is sure. Its unavoidable.

[-aiko-]

GC must be removed before another batch of irrepairable damage is done.

GC doesn't have the power you are implying that he does. He doesn't wave a magic wand and start wrecking things. He talks to his team, they brainstorm ideas, and these ideas must get approved before they're put into place at all. The amount of hate this guy gets makes me really pity him.

[Brash]

GC doesn't have the power you are implying that he does. He doesn't wave a magic wand and start wrecking things. He talks to his team, they brainstorm ideas, and these ideas must get approved before they're put into place at all. The amount of hate this guy gets makes me really pity him.

I'd agree with you if it wasnt for one thing, It's his job to take all this heat, albeit irrational and undeserved. Although it has been around before him, it was just "GG BLIZZ" instead of "GG GC"

As for the whole 25man changes, I'd say its a mount/vanity thing. And if it is everyone will still be pissed that they have to find 15 more people to get the same gear. Which is a bit odd when those same people say that the joy of 25 man raiding is in the large group setting it provides not the chance at getting better gear.

[Soulstrike]

uhhhh i dont get this type of arguement >_>

if you raid 10man who cares about 25man

if you raid 25man who cares about 10man

"BUT BUT 10MAN IS WAYYY EASIER!!!"

then stop doing 25man and go raid 10man it can never be balanced -_-

i tried 25man this tier and i hated it so went back to 10man, you dont see me posting a thread about "QQ 25man sucks so much"(not pointing finger at OP sorry)

maybe they can have free flask/food for 25man for 1 hour or something but more loot/higher ilvl wont solve anything

i dont think blizz really needs to do anything the problem is the COMMUNITY itself >_>

[Calpal]

If football got cut down to a 2 or 3 person game would it feel the same? Football at 11 players is raiding at 40. Right now we have 6-7man football(25man) and 2-3 person(10man) football. Funny enough 7 man is actually a real football style, while less enjoyable and "big" as the full 11, it still has a place. The physical number of people isn't what makes things epic, it is all based around perspective.

Making 10man the hardcore size would ruin the game pretty quick for a lot of people, like myself.

Your trying to assign a perfect size to raiding which is impossible when you have a large population of players with different opinions of what is fun and enjoyable.

Also, competitive street soccer/indoor soccer will sometimes use teams of 2-5 people, and each of those guys has just as much skill, and the game requires just as much skill as a full field 11v11 soccer game. Its just a slightly different game.

maybe your talking about american football. I think soccer is a better analogy

[Radalek]

You pretty much lose legitimacy in your argument when you say "10 man is not a legitimate format." I thought 40 mans sucked because I was part of the 15 or so people carrying the whole group, but I don't suggest 40 mans were illegitimate content.

I wouldn't mind 25s having different skins for their gear, but I don't think that'd ever happen as Blizz already thinks they spend too many resources on raiding assets which not enough people see.

I would mind a bit more with unique titles and achievements, but that's because I'm a title/achievement whore. It could probably work.

Better gear is right out.

I'm telling you, make the smaller heroic size the "hardcore" size, make the bigger heroic size easier by a discernible amount but still hard (by design, not just in an argument between 10s and 25s) but drop the same gear. So if you take the effort of organization, you get the epic feeling, you have a better chance of the shinies because it's easier.

The "competition" in WoW is completely player driven. So if they say "Hey, 10 mans are hardcore now, you need one person solo healing a phase while your other healers go solo heal something else, you need one person kiting without getting hit for the whole encounter, etc, etc," and basically dial up the things that can make 10s hard (individual gimmicks with wipe-capability), the competition will flow towards 10 mans. It's already this way in parts of Asia, where 10 mans are considered more hardcore, but I think us NA/Euro types would need it for to actually be unbalanced for it to happen.

The main critique of this might be that you lose some sort of "epic" feeling losing 15 people in the process, but I think 10 people performing ridiculous feats in symphony can keep that epic feel. Hell, you only have 11 in football. Encounter spaces can be smaller, there can be moving mechanics (platforming, etc) because you don't have to worry about more people probably failing it, etc.

Keep in mind what blue posts said.

First they said they are unhappy with state of 25 man raiding atm and that they want to improve it with adding more incentives.
After that they said they have idea how to improve it but it's 'controversial' so they are not ready to go out with it yet.
Lats blue post was about how they wanted to have 25 mans droping 1/2 upgraded gear but whole system came in the middle of the tier and they didn't want to do it because of that. But that reasoning is gone when 5.2 hits so it's something that might happen.

So people should be aware that it's obvious that some kind of 'improvement' for 25 mans is incoming and not everyone is going to like it, especially people that prefer 10 mans alone.

[brunnor]

Your trying to assign a perfect size to raiding which is impossible when you have a large population of players with different opinions of what is fun and enjoyable.

Also, competitive street soccer/indoor soccer will sometimes use teams of 2-5 people, and each of those guys has just as much skill, and the game requires just as much skill as a full field 11v11 soccer game. Its just a slightly different game.

maybe your talking about american football. I think soccer is a better analogy

Obviously talking american football as it is the only football. World cup is fun too though. 10s are like 2-3 person "teams" for a "team" game. While street and indoor soccer might have people that like them, they aren't nearly as popular as their larger counterpart. Dropping in size does make the game less entertaining for a vast majority of people, in an overall sporting genre. The same is said for our game. People love to dilute themselves in to thinking its something other than an easier access to loot, but that's the end of it for most.

In the end, if people want to do 10s, as in they really like the style, they will stay doing 10s no matter what, just as the 25s people will stay the same no matter what. If people are only in it for the loot or are indifferent, they will go to the easier side. Blizzard wants to sing some of the indifferent players the other direction. If people leave your "group of friends" 10 man for better loot, they weren't that good of friends to begin with and they were just using you for their items.

I find it funny that this whole conversation/argument was in reverse at the end of wrath. I was on forums just like you guys fighting for my style to stay where it was at. It didn't help. Blizzard still elected to practically kill raiding in my eyes. I hope they have gained some insight over the years and are starting to go back on what they have seen.

I do however think that the "fix" for 25s won't happen yet. I don't think Blizzard will get it right and I think most people will be annoyed by it. 25s will be pissed its not doing enough and 10s will be pissed that its doing something.

[Talen]

That doesn't solve the problem though. Whatever they do will have to effect everyone, not just the leaders of the raid. Oh great, now I have an incentive to run a 25m. But I still don't have the bodies to raid with. Its got to be loot related. And a mount or some separate achieves wont cut it.

Whatever they do is going to piss off 10m raiders. That much is sure. Its unavoidable.

No...it isn't sure. What they do could tick off 25s by - for example - refusing to incentivise 25s and simply addressing the issues which detre their formation and encourage their dissolution.

The " Oh great, now I have an incentive to run a 25m. But I still don't have the bodies to raid with" is a problem but one not solved by fiorcing others to raid a format they may not want with players they would not otherwise choose...that simply takes the problem from one player and puts it on someone else.

They appear to have ruled out better loot. They can only go so far with more loot before their gearing speed philosophy is affected. Upgrades aren't impossible but essentially come down to rewarding better loot. If Loot is the reward, an increase in VP rewards and perhaps even the VP cap would be a more flexible and finely tuned solution, albeit without the impact of an upgrade solution. Taking it another way, an item drop to allow a free upgarde could be available in both, with a higher drop rate in 25s ior something similar.

EJL

[Radalek]

No...it isn't sure. What they do could tick off 25s by - for example - refusing to incentivise 25s and simply addressing the issues which detre their formation and encourage their dissolution.

The " Oh great, now I have an incentive to run a 25m. But I still don't have the bodies to raid with" is a problem but one not solved by fiorcing others to raid a format they may not want with players they would not otherwise choose...that simply takes the problem from one player and puts it on someone else.

They appear to have ruled out better loot. They can only go so far with more loot before their gearing speed philosophy is affected. Upgrades aren't impossible but essentially come down to rewarding better loot. If Loot is the reward, an increase in VP rewards and perhaps even the VP cap would be a more flexible and finely tuned solution, albeit without the impact of an upgrade solution. Taking it another way, an item drop to allow a free upgarde could be available in both, with a higher drop rate in 25s ior something similar.

EJL

No, they actualy haven't ruled out better loot based on the latest blue post. At least they were definitely considering having 25 man droping 1/2 upgraded loot but they didn't go through with it since system was introduced half way through the tier. But come 5.2 that problem is gone so it is a possibility.

[Daverid]

I have always and will continue to support the 15man raid idea.

However as to what Ghostcrawler is implying, I would have no idea. If it isn't turning raids into 15man, then perhaps it's got something to do with the Elder Charms... Maybe every X amount of Boss kill you get in 25man Format rewards you with a Token which can then be used like Charms to get an extra Roll on loot. I still don't know if that would be enough incentive to get people running 25man, but the only other solution is making an ilvl gap again which frankly I think is going backwards and I'd think going 15man setup is a far better idea then just turning the clock back to WOTLK.

[eschatological]

Obviously talking american football as it is the only football. World cup is fun too though. 10s are like 2-3 person "teams" for a "team" game. While street and indoor soccer might have people that like them, they aren't nearly as popular as their larger counterpart. Dropping in size does make the game less entertaining for a vast majority of people, in an overall sporting genre. The same is said for our game. People love to dilute themselves in to thinking its something other than an easier access to loot, but that's the end of it for most.

In the end, if people want to do 10s, as in they really like the style, they will stay doing 10s no matter what, just as the 25s people will stay the same no matter what. If people are only in it for the loot or are indifferent, they will go to the easier side. Blizzard wants to sing some of the indifferent players the other direction. If people leave your "group of friends" 10 man for better loot, they weren't that good of friends to begin with and they were just using you for their items.

I find it funny that this whole conversation/argument was in reverse at the end of wrath. I was on forums just like you guys fighting for my style to stay where it was at. It didn't help. Blizzard still elected to practically kill raiding in my eyes. I hope they have gained some insight over the years and are starting to go back on what they have seen.

I do however think that the "fix" for 25s won't happen yet. I don't think Blizzard will get it right and I think most people will be annoyed by it. 25s will be pissed its not doing enough and 10s will be pissed that its doing something.

The football analogy is just to indicate that 10 (or 11) people working in tandem, in fluid motion, with teamwork, can be epic, since epic is just a subjective measure. Epicness can involve grace, herculean individual effort, teammates who know what their team will do without having to say anything - not just more things flying at the boss.

Imagine now if instead of an 11 person soccer team, you had 25 people on the team? Sure, there might be more mad rushes down the field, some more display of brute strength, but, imo, you lose some of the grace and melody of the other format. Bigger isn't always more epic - stop being so Western about that. A rugby scrum might be more brutal if they suddenly doubled the size of the teams, but it would lose that whirling dervish epic feel to it.

That's all I'm saying.

One last thing: Football at 11 is obviously not raiding at 40. Raiding at 40 had so much bloat and dead weight it was more like 15 man raiding with the fervent hope that the rest of the idiots in your group didn't wipe you. Having 40 people also meant trivial mechanics, and trivial rotations. Even in 25 mans (in an "average" heroic progression 25) there is dead weight, and you can skip mechanics by stacking massive CDs. Hell, BL's first H-Vizier kill, before the echo nerfs, involved them *not* stacking in noise cancelling zones and just stacking SLTs and barriers and other raid CDs. Try doing that in 10s. Try not killing adds in p1 H-Sha like Method did in 25 man in 10m, where you have to solo heal wherever you are. In 10s, you're not progressing in heroics very far if you have *any* dead weight. I'd say 10 mans are very analogous to 11 man football teams in that regard.

[Griearth]

The simple fact, when all extraneous noise is boiled away, is that it comes down the the path of least resistance. While there are always exceptions to any rule, we as a species are governed by 3 primal instincts - we are greedy, we are lazy and we are horny. We will spend the minimum amount of effort possible to achieve our goals.

In this case, without added incentives it appears that 10 man raiding is the "easiest" format to do that.

[Count Zero]

It's impossible to fully balance the incentive to run the two sizes.

10 is simpler to organize and that cannot be changed -- meaning what's left to be manipulated is amount of gear, amount of valor, ilvl of gear (either total ilvl or just springboarding to 1 or 2 upgrade levels automatically/free), gold, completely new bonus rewards (flasks ? feasts ?), encounter difficulty (highly unlikely they nerf 25s or buff 10s), rep with raid factions, legendary quest progress rates ...

I don't see re-splitting the lockouts or having separate achieves ... this only gives incentive to do both, rather than trying to overcome the "path of least resistance" idea others (most recently Griearth) have mentioned that make 10s more preferable to 25s. They know there will be tons of qq about being "forced" to run both sizes each week (legit complaint or not, there will be a massive amount of it).

And I don't see it being an even greater amount of gear, or ilvl (perhaps it could be partially [one step] upgraded gear, tho -- or maybe a bit more valor, although having a cap makes it pointless ... perhaps 25s would not respect and/or contribute to the cap ? unlikely, imo, on that last one ...)

they've said before the extra logistical burden largely falls on the officers of a guild. i can see that they might have raid bosses in 25 drop flask/feast mats ... maybe cauldrons return for 25s only ?

[Deleted]

Pre-buffed gear would be something Id want to see and maybe 1 more loot per boss.
Then through in Valor vendor that sells flasks/best stat foodbuffs/enchants things that are needed as raider.

If they start giving out better items than you get from 10man, ohwell im not gonna bother with finding or making a 25man guild. So Im just gonna drop the game.
No shared lockouts? Oh god. So new raid appears, lets do LFR 10man and 25man. Please no. I don't want to do the same raid 3x a week just to stay competive.

25m really needs something, but if that something is getting gear that is just plain better ilvl than 10man's its gonna be a slap in the face for most of the community.
You just can't tell people that hey now 10m drops the same gear as 25, but you only get less -> everyone goes 10m cause raiding with friends is soo much more fun than 9friends an 15 randoms. Then after few years, you go back and tell everyone to go find 15more randoms if you want the best gear possible.

[Feindy]

they should do something finally. the main problem with 25mans is that you can always take your 10 best people and have better progression. thats what dying paragon did and look, it worked. or look at kungen. came back, started 25man raiding guild and now? he has his "speacial olympic team" doing 10man

[Deleted]

The ideal way to make 25 the only desired choice for every raider is to remove the heroic version of the 10m size. It's not like it was heroic before, so the best thing to do is to actively break every 10m guilds and merge them under a new banner, for 25m raids.

Why wouldn't anyone want that to happen?
-Break 3 or 4 10 man guilds where only 6-7 are actually decent to good players
-Make a reliable 25m roster where only the best players can raid

Everybody wins in this scenario.

Have you considered the fact that some people don't want to raid 25 man again and yet want to be competitive? I didn't think so. Now stop assuming and make up a decent well written argument rather than forcing people into something.

---------- Post added 2013-01-05 at 11:07 AM ----------

If football got cut down to a 2 or 3 person game would it feel the same? Football at 11 players is raiding at 40. Right now we have 6-7man football(25man) and 2-3 person(10man) football. Funny enough 7 man is actually a real football style, while less enjoyable and "big" as the full 11, it still has a place. The physical number of people isn't what makes things epic, it is all based around perspective.

Making 10man the hardcore size would ruin the game pretty quick for a lot of people, like myself.

So is 4 and 5 man football, your point is ?

---------- Post added 2013-01-05 at 11:12 AM ----------

This thread has been an interesting read to say the least. It's funny seeing all the "this is harder than this" posts in a thread that shouldn't have any of it. The OP didn't ask if you agreed with what Blizzard was going to do, merely what you thought it could be.

As a 25m raid/guild leader, I would love some help to make things easier. A lot of people in this post, and else where, don't truly understand the difficulty of running a 25man guild, as I have for 7 years or so now. There are tons of issues we deal with, as an officer/GM, that could use some help as a QoL is concerned. The biggest issue for all of us is trying to find people who want to do 25m over 10m. There are exceptions to general masses, but most don't overly care if they raid 10s or 25s it seems. Pulling people to actually want a 25m guild over a 10m guild of the same progression level is nearly impossible these days. My guild is by no means a great raiding guild, but we do decently I think for what we have, so we have no real "top world" pull like a lot of the higher up 25mans have. We are stuck in a sea of 10m guilds that have an easier raiding style, logistically of course.

I personally would never stop raiding 25s, as would a good chunk of my raiders, but that doesn't mean it's that way for all of my raiders or is it the case for tons and tons of potential apps. The people who don't care never seem to want to deal with the added headache of the logistical end. These people don't have to do anything with it but they are punished by it like the rest of the guild. For example, my guild hasn't had a progression raid in 2 weeks now due to the holidays. We had 3 days off for xmas and that's it but due to needing tanks/healers/etc to show up and having some many different holiday schedules to deal with it was not possible to pull off anything new due to missing a few random key players here and there. This kind of thing is what 25mans have to deal with that makes them die off or not be "popular". If there was something that made scale balanced a little bit uneven to give people a reason to put up with the added issues of 25m logistics that would be great.

Personally, I would love it if 10m raids just went away. I don't think they are a true raiding style and shouldn't get resources wasted on them.

Knowing that it would be very unlikely that would ever happen, my next desire would be to split 10 and 25 raids up again like in TBC. Kara to SSC etc. They could be the same ilvl and the same "difficulty" but be different story/lore for each zone. Leave LFR as it is to give 10 man guilds the ability to see 25man content but leave them their own progression path. There would obviously be different server firsts and such since different zones. If a 25man guild could fully clear through 25man heroic and then clear a whole new zone and new bosses on heroic in 10s before a pure 10man guild, then they could achieve both server firsts, but if there was any serious progression guild in either 10s or 25s that would never happen. I think this idea is a logical one and wouldn't really cause too much issue with anyone but Blizzard due to the fact it would be double the content/story to produce per patch.

My final, and most likely, desire would be to give 25s time off of raiding when raiding is done. That means QoL things like giving us valor cap from just raiding, giving us coins from just raiding, flasks/food/pots just from raiding. Don't require time outside of the set raid schedule. Obviously if people like doing dailies/5mans etc they can still do those but they would be on a desired basis rather than a "I'm really hurting my guild if I don't" basis.

tl;dr - This thread is funny. 10mans should go die but won't so give different zones if not, give 25s QoL things.

I love how your implying that 10 man's don't have the same issues. Last thing I checked 10-man raiders also have had holidays, and to be fair we have less backups for our roster than any "healthy" 25-man guild should have. So what you pretty much said is that every 10-man raider out there was sitting at his desk rather than going to family or other things for the holiday. Nice assumptions, I share fairly little faith and belief in your story of being a so-called GM for 7 years.

[Feindy]

is there any 4man or 5man football champions league? or world cup? dunno, i dont care about this kind of football

[rogas]

Think they better hurry up ... because else there won't be any 25-man raiding left to save ...

But then again... what's up with all those empty/low populated/unbalanced servers ?

Has promoting 10-man raiding been an excuse for not addressing those issues??