[Ret] T15 Set Bonuses

[Riptide]

I'm thinking 400-500k crits with a new tier weapon on cooldown-roids.

Could mean the return of mastery as prime stat, considering haste's decreased value after the plateau and higher Ilvl to get there faster.

Haste (8k) > Mastery > Haste > Crit sounds likely.

Why would 8k haste be the stopping point, I'm still simming haste > streg and I'm at 10k haste. All I'm saying is if mastery is better, it's better. There's no real attainable breakpoint for haste.

It doesn't matter though because I'm pretty sure no ret will be using t15 until they have 4pc. There are still people in my group that don't have 4pc. Which means for most of progression it's still going to be haste> mastery=crit.

[Eon Drache]

Last time I checked double dipping = effect scales with itself (resulting a function of (1+x)^2) - which is not the case with AoW and Sanctity of Battle since both effects are a linear function of haste and add up rather than getting multiplied.
number of exorcisms = (1+haste)/cd + (1+haste)*proc chance/attackspeed

I was more so commenting on the fact that haste lowers the CD on Exorcism AND also makes us auto attack faster. Not using the technical form as most things in wow don't actually "double dip" through the same function.

[Deleted]

Just a bit off topic question to mods, how come the prot set bonus thread got moved to the prot guide thread however the retri one does not get moved the retri guide thread? Feels like mods are being a bit overzealous about every thread regarding prot paladins. Either they get moved to guide or fix my tanking. Even when its not really warranted. Like, set bonus discussion, fail to see why it belongs into the guide thread as it got nothing to do with the actual guide whatsoever. Though, why does not the other specs recieve the same treatment.

[Fhi]

Just a bit off topic question to mods, how come the prot set bonus thread got moved to the prot guide thread however the retri one does not get moved the retri guide thread? Feels like mods are being a bit overzealous about every thread regarding prot paladins. Either they get moved to guide or fix my tanking. Even when its not really warranted. Like, set bonus discussion, fail to see why it belongs into the guide thread as it got nothing to do with the actual guide whatsoever. Though, why does not the other specs recieve the same treatment.

That was a derp moment on my part. Thanks for pointing it out, I moved it back to its original spot.

~Fhi

[Veliane]

Why would 8k haste be the stopping point, I'm still simming haste > streg and I'm at 10k haste.

What kind of weapon do you have, for a while most sims showed the value of haste to go down a lot at about those levels.

[nyc81991]

I don't see haste taking a back seat to anything for one simple reason. Both the 2 set and 4 set will benefit from more haste. Haste = attack speed which can proc exorcism more and lowers the cd of Crusader strike which will proc the 4 set bonus more.

[Riptide]

What kind of weapon do you have, for a while most sims showed the value of haste to go down a lot at about those levels.

496 shin'ka

[Vathius]

the 4p bonus should be folded as baseline with TV ffs.

Its the weakest finisher anyway. Thats a sweet ability to buff ret across the board. Change the 4p to 30% chance your next exo makes your next TV 100% crit.

[Reith]

Love how paladins are the only class that is completely ignored on the front page there... that's very encouraging.

[Riptide]

Love how paladins are the only class that is completely ignored on the front page there... that's very encouraging.

I know this is off topic, but I have been tweeting GC almost daily on ret/monk/pvp stuff. I usually get a response and it does make me feel better knowing I may be bringing issues to light they aren't aware of. I suggest you and everyone else that cares about a particular thing, just try tweeting him. If it's not a loaded question or a repeated topic, he usually answers.

on topic yea i just saw that and immediately tweeted him "Are you happy with Ret AoE/Cleave in raids? Also are you aware the t15 bonus make Ret AoE even less worthwhile? "

Let's hope he sees it in the morning and responds!

[Deleted]

Love how paladins are the only class that is completely ignored on the front page there... that's very encouraging.

Exactly what I was thinking.

Reading this post raises a lot of serious questions and concerns that they could've just as easily been answered as telling mages which talent to go with the new set-pieces.
I'm beginning to feel a bit overlooked. The last 3-4 patch notes there has been what, 2-3 changes? Most of them insignificant. Yeah Repentance gets .25 more casting time, so what? Oh they buffed Consecration? Once Again a prot change, nothing that will have any effect on ret.


Ultimately it's sad that, for the first time there's a PTR where there is actually no changes to test, that affects your playstyle, dmg or whatever it could be.
Just sad.

[Eon Drache]

Exactly what I was thinking.

Reading this post raises a lot of serious questions and concerns that they could've just as easily been answered as telling mages which talent to go with the new set-pieces.
I'm beginning to feel a bit overlooked. The last 3-4 patch notes there has been what, 2-3 changes? Most of them insignificant. Yeah Repentance gets .25 more casting time, so what? Oh they buffed Consecration? Once Again a prot change, nothing that will have any effect on ret.


Ultimately it's sad that, for the first time there's a PTR where there is actually no changes to test, that affects your playstyle, dmg or whatever it could be.
Just sad.

I'm pretty sure the only things that affect ret for the 5.2 changes are 10% damage reduction on Hand of Purity, which is pretty nice in PvP. And .2 seconds cast time added to Repentance. In raids, I don't take Repentance as we have so much CC already for trash in HoF, and in PvP, we are melee, why the hell would we want to cast Repentance and risk getting locked out.

When I saw Paladin was the only class excluded from changes, and Ghostcrawler's (Ret is where we want it) rambling, I'm feeling very lackluster in all aspects as a Ret Pally.

[Deleted]

I'm pretty sure the only things that affect ret for the 5.2 changes are 10% damage reduction on Hand of Purity, which is pretty nice in PvP. And .2 seconds cast time added to Repentance. In raids, I don't take Repentance as we have so much CC already for trash in HoF, and in PvP, we are melee, why the hell would we want to cast Repentance and risk getting locked out.

When I saw Paladin was the only class excluded from changes, and Ghostcrawler's (Ret is where we want it) rambling, I'm feeling very lackluster in all aspects as a Ret Pally.

CC in HoF?! Either i've been sleeping during every raid we've ever had there or we just bruteforced. Either way, repentance is still useless, not even for challenge modes have i been using it.

[nyc81991]

I really feel like if they made Divine Purpose baseline for Ret and replaced it with a new talent we would be in a great spot. And all they have to do in pvp is make our heals better or buff sacred shield to actually do something.

[torterra275]

I really feel like if they made Divine Purpose baseline for Ret and replaced it with a new talent we would be in a great spot. And all they have to do in pvp is make our heals better or buff sacred shield to actually do something.

Been saying that to a few people since 5.1 now.

Also, Ghostcrawler posted some tier clarification, might prove useful to theorycrafting;

- The Retribution 2pc is a debuff on the target, and does not stack or roll. With Glyph of Mass Exorcism, the debuff will be applied to all targets hit by the Exorcism. It affects all of your Holy damage. Yes, that includes Seal of Truth, Censure ticks, and Hand of Light. Censure ticks are affected per tick -- whether it was up when Censure was applied doesn't matter. It functions similar to the increased magic damage taken raid debuff, except is Holy-only and self-only. Clipping some debuffs when you get back to back Art of War procs is expected, and balanced around.
- The Retribution 4pc does grant a self-buff that is consumed by the next TV, and does not stack. Wasting some procs is expected, and balanced around. Yes it is a single-target benefit that won't increase DPS on AE fights. We don't want to be in such a limited design space (we're talking about the 15th tier here after all) that every set bonus must be super generic and work in every situation. If anything, we'd rather the Ret bonus be even higher for single-target and paladins will just be stronger at single-target and weaker at AE once they have the set bonus than they are in other tiers. Set bonuses are one of the few chances we have to change what your character does (within reason) aside from all of your numbers just getting bigger.

Any thoughts on that?

[Runewrath]

If they want us to just be higher single target and shit for AoE then we need to actually beat most classes on single target or rets will be less desirable. Especially since most fights this tier had adds at some point.

[Reith]

Also, Ghostcrawler posted some tier clarification, might prove useful to theorycrafting;

Any thoughts on that?

If he was talking about the current tier I'd call him a fucking liar, but I'll just have to wait until Ret is mediocre on single target again in T15 and/or have a ton of multi-target fights, making Ret weaker overall in comparison before I make that call.

[Velshin]

I love the 2 set bonus pretty amazing. However, I have mix feeling toward the 4th set bonus...I mean it's indeed true that making templar verdict pure holy dmg + inquistion + scaling with our mastery will be some insane serious dmg from it...but....I don't know about you guys but I really got sick of RNG Cataclysm was more than enough for me in term of RNG. I was so glad that divine purpose became something optional instead of being forced to talent it.

I don't know if this is the final version of the set bonus because we are still in PTR after all so yeah.. we will see.

[Shelly]

Not really all that enthused with the 4pc, but maybe that will change with my gear level. Currently at 481 with a 491 LFR Shin'Ka (2/2 upgrade) and CS hits for beans compared to exorcism or judgment - roughly 10k less per hit. Which makes needing to prioritize it X-many seconds (don't know how long the buff lasts) to every TV is rather annoying.

As is this makes our priority pretty wonky to begin with since you'll be wanting the exorcism debuff up on target as well as the CS buff up on yourself before using TV. Not exactly super-complicated and I'm sure many of the best rets and those using the CLC addon will be getting great results from it.

Anyway, much as I wish we had something like DKs and Hunters are getting - I love proc pets and think it would be interesting to get some sort of spirit of the light to blow up our enemies - I think our set bonus will be very solid and the stat inflation on gear is more than enough to justify replacing our current set bonuses as soon as we can.

[Moradim]

rng on top of rng (exo can reset affecting 2pc, 4pc is rng again)

I love how the devs listen to what paladins are asking for!