Brewmaster stats?

[Swag]

Can someone help enlighten me on stat priority or relevant break points for brew masters? I'm having trouble pinning down solid information like "mastery is better than haste after X". It seems like all the various sources for info say something different and all the monks from top end guilds seem to be doing something different with gems and reforges. I just need a solid lead on what I should be shooting for to make good gear choices.

[The Madgod]

That's because there isn't any definitive stat break points like that. They're very much tailored to your personal playstyle. The amount of haste you need or if you prefer avoidance and self healing or stagger is dependent on your playstyle, your raid's playstyle, and the content you're doing.

[Viradiance]

Expertise and Hit to both hard caps (15 and 7.5 respectively)

At this point, haste and crit are both fairly close. The way it plays out is you get Haste until you break a certain point of energy per second without ascendence (something like 13?) and take Power Strikes, then go all in on Crit to maximize Elusive Brew, Shuffle uptime and Chi gen.

From there, mastery, parry and dodge are practically undesirable in that respective order.

This is, for what it's worth, for a mitigation build as opposed to an avoidance build-- but it's what you probably want either way.

Your rough stat priot:

Hit/Expertise to Cap > Haste to 13(?) EPS == Crit > Haste after 13(?) EPS >> Mastery > Parry > Dodge

Primary stats are in there somewhere, I think Stam is just above mastery and agi is about equal to haste over 13.

Of course, tanking is not set in stone, and personal playstyle has a lot to do with it. Find a setup you're comfortable with. There's a lot of good info on the BRM thread here or on EJ.

[Chuupag]

Expertise and Hit to both hard caps (15 and 7.5 respectively)

At this point, haste and crit are both fairly close. The way it plays out is you get Haste until you break a certain point of energy per second without ascendence (something like 13?) and take Power Strikes, then go all in on Crit to maximize Elusive Brew, Shuffle uptime and Chi gen.

You don't need hard caps unless you want more dps. Hit, exp, haste, and crit are all fairly equal at reducing damage taken with crit being the best in the long term. Of the 4 only crit does not have 'diminishing returns' in the sense that once you get enough chi via haste/hit/exp any more will reduce less damage b/c there is only so much you can purify off.

[siccora]

Damn it. There is no hard cap any more. It is dodge and parry cap.

[Chuupag]

Damn it. There is no hard cap any more. It is dodge and parry cap.

More accurately: there is no soft cap anymore. Hard cap still exists.

[kangamooster]

You don't need hard caps unless you want more dps. Hit, exp, haste, and crit are all fairly equal at reducing damage taken with crit being the best in the long term. Of the 4 only crit does not have 'diminishing returns' in the sense that once you get enough chi via haste/hit/exp any more will reduce less damage b/c there is only so much you can purify off.

Missing a Keg Smash is a BIG deal in raiding.

[arisoh]

I've also noticed a LOT more orbs popping up when my expertise when up into the 13+% which I find pretty useful in raids.

[gynshon]

Missing a Keg Smash is a BIG deal in raiding.

No it isn't.

[Riptide]

Missing a Keg Smash is a BIG deal in raiding.

It's threat/dps lost, not on the same level of mitigation lost for a prot pally.

[Ielenia]

It's threat/dps lost, not on the same level of mitigation lost for a prot pally.

It's two chi generation loss, which could be used for a Blackout kick to keep the short-duration Shuffle buff up.

EDIT: And when you're going against Heroic bosses in raid, missing generating two Chi in one global cooldown is a BIG deal, because those guys hit so hard you'll be likely using Purifying brew every 3~5 seconds.

[Chuupag]

It's two chi generation loss, which could be used for a Blackout kick to keep the short-duration Shuffle buff up.

It's not a 2 chi loss. It's a 1 chi, 1 gcd, and 8 energy loss. In the grand scheme of things not a huge deal.

[BM] Hit and Exp: why you don't have to cap them

[Shinchib]

No it isn't.

^

Unicorns and fluffy bunnies and the such.

[gynshon]

It's two chi generation loss, which could be used for a Blackout kick to keep the short-duration Shuffle buff up.

EDIT: And when you're going against Heroic bosses in raid, missing generating two Chi in one global cooldown is a BIG deal, because those guys hit so hard you'll be likely using Purifying brew every 3~5 seconds.

So my 16/16HM experience doesn't count? It isn't a big deal at all. Logs have shown this multiple times. At 7.5% expertise, I will miss 2-3 KS per 6 min fight on average. The other night for instance:

H Protectors - 6:27 duration. 4 KS, 3 Jabs parried.
H Tsulong - 8:04 duration. 2 KS, 1 Jab parried.
H Lei Shei - 6:31 duration. 0 parries.
H Sha - 16:17 duration. 6 KS, 7 Jabs parried.
H Vizier - 8:00 duration. 1 KS, 2 Jabs.

Want me to go on, or can you see it really isn't that big of a deal in the grand scheme of things and those stats are better put elsewhere to help our mitigation.

[kangamooster]

So my 16/16HM experience doesn't count? It isn't a big deal at all. Logs have shown this multiple times. At 7.5% expertise, I will miss 2-3 KS per 6 min fight on average. The other night for instance:

H Protectors - 6:27 duration. 4 KS, 3 Jabs parried.
H Tsulong - 8:04 duration. 2 KS, 1 Jab parried.
H Lei Shei - 6:31 duration. 0 parries.
H Sha - 16:17 duration. 6 KS, 7 Jabs parried.
H Vizier - 8:00 duration. 1 KS, 2 Jabs.

Want me to go on, or can you see it really isn't that big of a deal in the grand scheme of things and those stats are better put elsewhere to help our mitigation.

It's not a question of how many you miss per fight, or even how many you miss per minute. The number will be low no matter what; people always gloss over the fact that even with 0% hit/exp, we still have a 77.5% chance to hit, which is very high.

The deal is you have this 5%, a minor chance, to just fall over and die because you missed two KS's in a row or what have you. On a Brewmaster which is hugely dependent on AM, with the worst passive defenses of any tank in the game, missing your main AM-generation ability is pretty vital because of those low passive defenses.

Can you really justify giving yourself a (though minor) chance to just die due to bad RNG for a tradeoff of marginally higher dps/defensive capabilities? Other tanks in other expansions didn't think so; think to why tanks capped Defense rating, even though the chance for us to get crit with 0 defense rating was still obscenely low.

That is the major flaw in reasoning that you (and that thread) has missed. Learn from previous expansions; the reasoning is exactly the same, and just as correct now as it was then. If given the chance, tossing things up to RNG is NOT the wiser decision, especially not as tanks where reliability is key.

[gynshon]

It's not a question of how many you miss per fight, or even how many you miss per minute. The number will be low no matter what; people always gloss over the fact that even with 0% hit/exp, we still have a 77.5% chance to hit, which is very high.

The deal is you have this 5%, a minor chance, to just fall over and die because you missed two KS's in a row or what have you. On a Brewmaster which is hugely dependent on AM, with the worst passive defenses of any tank in the game, missing your main AM-generation ability is pretty vital because of those low passive defenses.

Can you really justify giving yourself a (though minor) chance to just die due to bad RNG for a tradeoff of marginally higher dps/defensive capabilities? Other tanks in other expansions didn't think so; think to why tanks capped Defense rating, even though the chance for us to get crit with 0 defense rating was still obscenely low.

That is the major flaw in reasoning that you (and that thread) has missed. Learn from previous expansions; the reasoning is exactly the same, and just as correct now as it was then. If given the chance, tossing things up to RNG is NOT the wiser decision, especially not as tanks where reliability is key.

I have raided as a tank at a high level since Vanilla. With some gaps here and there in tiers, I have never been out of the loop. Warrior in Vanilla, Paladin in BC, DK/Feral in ICC, Cata was alts as I went DPS classes for main as a change of pace, and now Monk. Monk is unique class, with a special set of skills.

What you are describing above has never happened. Of every fight I have done, I always look over the logs. I have never died to missing/parrying KS and not having Chi available for a Guard, or missing Blackout Kick and Shuffle wore off. NEVER. Besides, if I missed a KS, I can always follow it with an Expel harm, and Jab.

It has never happened, ever, so why even bring it into the equation. I don't sell insurance, I sell common sense and practicality. I am not going to gear for the .00000000000000000000000000001% of something happening when the logs show it has never happened yet in 3 months of raiding this tier at the highest level.

Stop muddying the waters for people. They are already confused as it is. 15% expertise is your choice if you want to go for it. It is a warm blanket on a cold day. If it makes you all warm and fuzzy inside, go for it. I am plenty warm at 7.5% and the logs keep me warm all winter long into the next tier.

[kangamooster]

I have raided as a tank at a high level since Vanilla. With some gaps here and there in tiers, I have never been out of the loop. Warrior in Vanilla, Paladin in BC, DK/Feral in ICC, Cata was alts as I went DPS classes for main as a change of pace, and now Monk. Monk is unique class, with a special set of skills.

What you are describing above has never happened. Of every fight I have done, I always look over the logs. I have never died to missing/parrying KS and not having Chi available for a Guard, or missing Blackout Kick and Shuffle wore off. NEVER. Besides, if I missed a KS, I can always follow it with an Expel harm, and Jab.

It has never happened, ever, so why even bring it into the equation. I don't sell insurance, I sell common sense and practicality. I am not going to gear for the .00000000000000000000000000001% of something happening when the logs show it has never happened yet in 3 months of raiding this tier at the highest level.

Stop muddying the waters for people. They are already confused as it is. 15% expertise is your choice if you want to go for it. It is a warm blanket on a cold day. If it makes you all warm and fuzzy inside, go for it. I am plenty warm at 7.5% and the logs keep me warm all winter long into the next tier.

Here's the thing, there are undoubtedly tanks that could have just skipped capping defense (or get resil in its place) up to Cata too, and never gotten crit once. That's why the one video with XT one-shotting a tank because of an initial crit was so hilarious at the time; it's a one in a million chance.

Just because it has never happened to you yet, if I was your raid leader I would be slightly annoyed at the fact that while you COULD 100% of the time prevent such a situation from happening, you won't for a less than 5% increase to your other stats. But like you said it's all personal preference, sure. Most tanks will, however, prefer a 100% guaranteed situation for marginally lower TDR, just the same as it was for defense rating.

P.S. Bragging about your 16/16H progression when the guild you joined just recently 2 shot H Sha this week and worked on its progression entirely without you is kinda funny.

[The Madgod]

Here's the thing, there are undoubtedly tanks that could have just skipped capping defense (or get resil in its place) up to Cata too, and never gotten crit once. That's why the one video with XT one-shotting a tank because of an initial crit was so hilarious at the time; it's a one in a million chance.

Just because it has never happened to you yet, if I was your raid leader I would be slightly annoyed at the fact that while you COULD 100% of the time prevent such a situation from happening, you won't for a less than 5% increase to your other stats. But like you said it's all personal preference, sure. Most tanks will, however, prefer a 100% guaranteed situation for marginally lower TDR, just the same as it was for defense rating.

P.S. Bragging about your 16/16H progression when the guild you joined just recently 2 shot H Sha this week and worked on its progression entirely without you is kinda funny.

If you're dying to a bad string of parries, then you're doing something else wrong. I'm sorry, but that's how the cookie crumbles.

Getting the dodge "soft cap" allows for your BoK to always apply shuffle and does a solid job of reducing the times your chi-generating abilities hit. Getting parry helps and really the point you want your expertise to be is relative to each person. More expertise helps with higher damage and raid healing and steadier chi flow, but replacing it with another stat is NOT going to kill you. I actually went out of expertise and a bit more into crit and mastery and I've been performing even better.

[kangamooster]

If you're dying to a bad string of parries, then you're doing something else wrong. I'm sorry, but that's how the cookie crumbles.

Getting the dodge "soft cap" allows for your BoK to always apply shuffle and does a solid job of reducing the times your chi-generating abilities hit. Getting parry helps and really the point you want your expertise to be is relative to each person. More expertise helps with higher damage and raid healing and steadier chi flow, but replacing it with another stat is NOT going to kill you. I actually went out of expertise and a bit more into crit and mastery and I've been performing even better.

Who said death was involved? In a 10m scenario, a bad string of misses/avoids is only going to make you spike; the only three fights that challenge tank survivability this tier are H SK, H Wind Lord (1 tank), and H Sha. None of those are even remotely similar to their 25m counterparts.

However that does NOT mean tank survivability is meaningless. Yes, ok, you can drop the parry from expertise just fine, but the point is THERE IS NO POINT to it when expertise and hit are both very cheaply budgeted stats and the amount of other secondaries you get from not capping expertise is so insanely low.

More than likely you started performing better not because of your stat allocation but because you just PLAYED BETTER. More practice always makes perfect, and people highly underestimate the value of personal play contributing to performance as compared to stats. Hit/expertise capping only make the personal play aspect even more important.

[The Madgod]

Who said death was involved? In a 10m scenario, a bad string of misses/avoids is only going to make you spike; the only three fights that challenge tank survivability this tier are H SK, H Wind Lord (1 tank), and H Sha. None of those are even remotely similar to their 25m counterparts.

However that does NOT mean tank survivability is meaningless. Yes, ok, you can drop the parry from expertise just fine, but the point is THERE IS NO POINT to it when expertise and hit are both very cheaply budgeted stats and the amount of other secondaries you get from not capping expertise is so insanely low.

More than likely you started performing better not because of your stat allocation but because you just PLAYED BETTER. More practice always makes perfect, and people highly underestimate the value of personal play contributing to performance as compared to stats. Hit/expertise capping only make the personal play aspect even more important.

Of course tank survivability isn't meaningless, but if going in and out of a stat isn't going to be a large difference then what's the point? I've been below the hard cap for a long time and I don't have those spikes because I, for one thing, try and stack chi for when I am about to use guard, and for another, I have enough energy regen to make stacking shuffle very easy. I get parried? Whoop-de-doo.

I switched up to this new style literally a week or so ago. I wouldn't have gotten noticeably better during that period of time. Sometimes, even for brewmasters, a minor change in gearing helps

And no, there is a point in moving stats out of expertise (I wouldn't for hit), as crit and mastery (though mastery's still expensive) help with avoidance and EH, respectively, and haste technically provides better overall chi generation. And no, getting expertise hard capped makes personal play LESS important, since it's easier just to spam abilities without any foresight to the future. It's ultimately a buffer for people. Active mitigation is king for brewmasters. Getting stats that benefit them in some way is making personal play less difficult, as you have more room for error, ergo, the quality of your play doesn't have to be as high.