Cow Clicking

[Otimus]

That's just stupid argument. You do know that a big part of players want to stand out?

if a big part of the playerbase wants to stand out, then how come, historically, the amount of raid attendance from the playerbase at large is about an average of 10% give or take? Moreover, why should anything that takes a great financial strain be tailored to THOSE people? Moreover, a lot of people are seemingly oblivious to YET STILL how much special attention they STILL get with this stuff, when all logical deduction from any company would lead them NOT to do so? In this regard, WoW is still very far behind on current trends, and is focusing on very archaic design philosophies to a point that isn't quite right, and is a big part in dooming it's total growth potential for the last few years.

[Kavoo]

Meh, tbh I want my dungeons to be easy, so I can log into some under geared alt and run it. I have enough hard content raiding heroic modes on my main.

[Elegiac]

And yet millions of people still enjoyed playing the game without feeling some bizarre entitlement to everything.

That said, I don't particularly mind the current model - there's challenge there if you want it, easy content if you don't - but I don't agree with your sentiment that no one on your server being good enough to kill KJ is a fault in design.

Casuals are the norm. I accept that.
The game GREW during classic and TBC, which was ridiculously punishing to casuals - because casuals played casual content, they did what was available FOR THEM without demanding access to raids - which weren't designed for casual play back then.

People need to learn that not EVERYTHING in the game is for them, both casual and "hardcore" - casual players need to stop clamoring for easier raid content outside of LFR and arguably normals, "hardcore" players need to stop complaining about how easy dailies, dungeons and LFR is.

Go play the content designed for you, stop complaining when you can't play everything.

I never beat orcs must die on the hardest difficulty setting, I still enjoyed doing the normal difficulty and what levels I could on the harder one. I was not robbed in any way, the hard content doesn't need to be made easier - I had my fun with what I could manage, and if I want to do more - that's on my end to get better. If you don't feel you got your monies worth, then you made a poor purchase and, in the case of WoW, can stop paying at any time.

WoW's greatest period of expansion was during Wrath, when difficulty was relaxed and the content was democratized significantly, so I would have to disagree.

Casuals are the majority, it makes sense that the main body of content should be geared to those players. As you say, go play the content that was designed for you - the OP needs to learn that lesson.

[Immitis]

wow was popular because it was an easy more casual version of everquest with the added benefit of being a warcraft game.

asking for the game to not be easy is like asking a vanilla milkshake to taste like chocolate.

wow has always been the easy carebear game for people who arent hardcore O-O

[Elegiac]

wow was popular because it was an easy more casual version of everquest with the added benefit of being a warcraft game.

asking for the game to not be easy is like asking a vanilla milkshake to taste like chocolate.

wow has always been the easy carebear game for people who arent hardcore O-O

Indeed, there was significant outcry against WoW because it was a far easier game than existing MMOs. Turns out, that was what the market wanted.

[cFortyfive]

Moreover, why should anything that takes a great financial strain be tailored to THOSE people?

Because you are still producing games.

WoW's greatest period of expansion was during Wrath, when difficulty was relaxed and the content was democratized significantly, so I would have to disagree.

Sure it didn't have anything to do with this being the most iconic expansion.

[Crawford]

Now you are using a broken boss as evidence. And no it did not kill the midrange raidin community. Right now there is more raiding guilds for normal content then there has ever been in the game.

This is false. There were more guild tags than ever seen on normal mode boss kills in DS, but DS lasted from December 2011 until September 2012, and there was a stacking debuff on the raid that scaled to 35%. By the end, the normal mode raid was essentially just as easy as LFR, and probably easier, so a lot of pickup groups killed bosses in it.

Which is fine. But there are not more guilds than ever tackling current content in tier 14. There are very few on my server. My guild was a raid guild, and LFR killed it. Just sucked away the motivation to raid.

[Elegiac]

Sure it didn't have anything to do with this being the most iconic expansion.

"Most iconic" is incredibly subjective and thus not applicable.

[Otimus]

I don't think Mu'ru progression among top guilds would have been nearly as compelling if there had been an easymode version that random groups of people with ungemmed gear killed the day he became available.

But segregating raids into normal and heroic versions really opened up progression possibilities for a lot of guilds, while still maintaining super-hard challenges for the most elite players. Then LFR just killed the midrange raid community.

You DO realize that the raiding community IS and HAS ALWAYS been a VERY SMALL MINORITY of WoW, right? There's a reason LFR was made, and it wasn't to make you mad. It's because making raids is expensive, and a tiny fraction of the community was even LOOKING at this portion of the game that took a lot of financial effort for Blizzard to create.
Same reason LFD got made. A large portion of the game wasn't being viewed by a lot of the players. Most people don't play with a guild of people that actively do things as a group. I know you and others may do that, But look up the damn numbers. Not a lot of people do stuff. THAT'S a problem. WHY in the world would you actively go to please one tiny group of people? It makes zero freaking sense.

Look at it this way, if this change wasn't made, all dungeons would degrade into Dragon Soul type scenarios. Chock full of nothing but re-used assets and simple fights, because the logic behind putting a budget behind that content just flat out wouldn't be there. Is that worth gating off people from "Your" content? Is it?

[cFortyfive]

"Most iconic" is incredibly subjective and thus not applicable.

Of course not at all. I mean it was the content everyone was waiting for but hell - it didn't have anything to do with its success.

[Elegiac]

This is false. There were more guild tags than ever seen on normal mode boss kills in DS, but DS lasted from December 2011 until September 2012, and there was a stacking debuff on the raid that scaled to 35%. By the end, the normal mode raid was essentially just as easy as LFR, and probably easier, so a lot of pickup groups killed bosses in it.

Which is fine. But there are not more guilds than ever tackling current content in tier 14. There are very few on my server. My guild was a raid guild, and LFR killed it. Just sucked away the motivation to raid.

LFR was the reason for your guild dying just as much as Franz Ferdinand's assassination was the cause of WWI. And considering its your word against player statistics, not a very valid comparison either.

[Immitis]

This is false. There were more guild tags than ever seen on normal mode boss kills in DS, but DS lasted from December 2011 until September 2012, and there was a stacking debuff on the raid that scaled to 35%. By the end, the normal mode raid was essentially just as easy as LFR, and probably easier, so a lot of pickup groups killed bosses in it.

Which is fine. But there are not more guilds than ever tackling current content in tier 14. There are very few on my server. My guild was a raid guild, and LFR killed it. Just sucked away the motivation to raid.

you know if you were playing in vanilla you would be teased right? an everquest player would come and here and be like "LOLOLOL A WOW RAID? WHY COULDNT YOU DO IT BY YOURSELVES"

also only 2 million people raid in this game. and just so you know that includes raid finder.

WITH RAID FINDER ONLY 2 MILLION PEOPLE RAID.

[Crawford]

The ultimate result of that would be even fewer people raiding and eventually the virtual elimination of it from the game. And it's not clear to me that LFR is required to begin raiding T14.

As to the rest of your post, that's one person's opinion more or less. If the game isn't compelling then I don't see why you would play it. It's fine that you enjoyed how Cataclysm started out. It's clear that making the game more difficult after Wrath was a serious business mistake that Blizzard is still paying for. A lot of those two million that left--most of them--never came back. You might be fine with several million people leaving the game. You might see it as taking out the trash and good riddance. You don't get to make that decision though.

Well, Blizzard posted a development diary around 4.0 about how difficulty was good, they doubled down on it with the troll heroics in 4.1, and they totally reversed course on it. So they must have gotten some very negative feedback from churning subscribers. Which is understandable; a lot of players couldn't play at the level demanded by cata dungeons, and the dungeons were the only route of progression. So those players got kicked out of every dungeon they played and they probably quit playing.

But are you really going to make long-term subscribers out of people like that?

[Immitis]

Of course not at all. I mean it was the content everyone was waiting for but hell - it didn't have anything to do with its success.

by the time wrath had already come out most of the warcraft 3 players had already quit. sure alot of current wow players wanted to see arthas but anyone who knows anything about lore can look at bc and see that most of the players who liked that expansion didnt know anything about it.

wrath did however have some of the best marketing i personally know alot of people who started playing in wrath

[MoanaLisa]

Which is fine. But there are not more guilds than ever tackling current content in tier 14. There are very few on my server. My guild was a raid guild, and LFR killed it. Just sucked away the motivation to raid.

If a guild can't work up the enthusiasm to beat normal mode T14, it's fair to ask how much of a raiding guild it really is. Normal/Heroic raiding is harder and has better rewards which I thought was the point of the op: Harder content should be rewarded. Now I'm hearing that harder content with better rewards isn't enough.

[Otimus]

you know if you were playing in vanilla you would be teased right? an everquest player would come and here and be like "LOLOLOL A WOW RAID? WHY COULDNT YOU DO IT BY YOURSELVES"

also only 2 million people raid in this game. and just so you know that includes raid finder.

WITH RAID FINDER ONLY 2 MILLION PEOPLE RAID.

Exactly. Ex-freaking-actly. Raiders live in this damned bubble... and Blizzard themselves don't make it any easier by trying to force everyone into raiding, and providing very little good content outside of raiding.

[Elegiac]

Well, Blizzard posted a development diary around 4.0 about how difficulty was good, they doubled down on it with the troll heroics in 4.1, and they totally reversed course on it. So they must have gotten some very negative feedback from churning subscribers. Which is understandable; a lot of players couldn't play at the level demanded by cata dungeons, and the dungeons were the only route of progression. So those players got kicked out of every dungeon they played and they probably quit playing.

But are you really going to make long-term subscribers out of people like that?

Because after continuing to hammer the nail in the foot, the screaming eventually got to them.

Additionally, not every player that complained was 'bad'. Some just didn't like having to invest so much effort into entry-level content.

[Immitis]

Well, Blizzard posted a development diary around 4.0 about how difficulty was good, they doubled down on it with the troll heroics in 4.1, and they totally reversed course on it. So they must have gotten some very negative feedback from churning subscribers. Which is understandable; a lot of players couldn't play at the level demanded by cata dungeons, and the dungeons were the only route of progression. So those players got kicked out of every dungeon they played and they probably quit playing.

But are you really going to make long-term subscribers out of people like that?

are you really gonna sell 5 candy bars when you could sell one?

[Jtbrig7390]

wow was popular because it was an easy more casual version of everquest with the added benefit of being a warcraft game.

asking for the game to not be easy is like asking a vanilla milkshake to taste like chocolate.

wow has always been the easy carebear game for people who arent hardcore O-O

This 100X over.

A small few people keep going "I want it to be like Vanilla WOW or TBC because it was hard and you had to grind for everything" compared to all other mmo's at the time wow released WOW is the most casual mmo released and still is to this day.

In Vanilla wow it took you what 3-5 months to get max level doing quests "Some in groups but not a lot" In everquest it could take you over a year easy to get max level and around 50 you had to group with people cause there was no longer quests for you to solo.

One of Wow's major selling points is the fact its so casual anyone could pick it up anytime and play it and have fun.

Cata proved going back to the TBC style of things is fail and would make subs drop like a rock.

With MOP they made dungeons wrath easy but keep the TBC grind on daily's and all.

Everything needs to return back to the Wrath style cause that is what worked even with ICC being out for a bit over a year they subs still went up by like 500k+.

Anyone else remember ghostclawer's shitty post about dungeons being hard....seems like that bit them in the ass cause subs dropped by 3 million.

[Deleted]

WoW's greatest period of expansion was during Wrath, when difficulty was relaxed and the content was democratized significantly, so I would have to disagree.

WoW was already at a stupidly healthy level of subs even pre-wotlk. That said~

Casuals are the majority, it makes sense that the main body of content should be geared to those players. As you say, go play the content that was designed for you - the OP needs to learn that lesson.

I hate "arguing" (though that sounds a bit over the top) with you, because I agree wholeheartedly. As long as heroics and challenge modes remain difficult, ie; not getting nerfed to hell and crapping all over and / or robbing you of the sense of achievement you usually get, I've no objection to easy dungeons, quests, LFR, hell - even normal mode raids I'm fine with being easy as long as the top tier remains challenging.

People wanting a challenge out of LFR / questing / normal mode dungeons are complete fools, to put it politely, and I agree that they need to learn that complaining about casual content is what will kill WoW. LFR is a godsend - it lets blizzard develop stunning raids like T14 was for the hardcore minority - because it doubles as casual content via LFR. It's the best thing to happen to WoW in years.

Looking for a challenge in normal dungeons is silly, since challenge modes are brutal as hell, and questing - that confuses the most.

A small few people keep going "I want it to be like Vanilla WOW or TBC because it was hard and you had to grind for everything" compared to all other mmo's at the time wow released WOW is the most casual mmo released and still is to this day.

Come now, there are varying shades of easy. Classic was less-grindy for it's time, but it was significantly more grindy than it is now.

That said, the only thing I'd really want back from classic is the crafting system, traveling around the world to hunt rare, low drop items from obscure mobs to craft an item was more satisfying than the terribly shallow system we have now, where the materials are so easy to get and bland, the items you create so mediocre that you take professions for the set bonuses.

Can't say I miss anything else much.