Why Guild Applications are becoming a thing of the past

[Kiry]

It´s a question of supply and demand. Times have changed. There are more raid slots to fill than people willing to apply. All guilds with an incomplete roster will need to rethink.

There is a a distinct shortage of people atm. Even dps spots are getting harder to find people for. I had a brief discussion with a guildie that wanted a longer more detailed app. I ask him why, he said that means they are willing to commit.
I just think different people have different perspectives on what that means.
I like to be on forums, some dont....but are still good raiders.

I think guilds just need to be flexible on how they do their finding people, esp when its hard to find people.

[Deleted]

As an officer of a raiding guild the application form has more uses than 'are they raid ready?' If that's all we wanted then the application would just be 'link your toon name'. We could then armory and find the logs ourselves.
The application form is used to determine what kind of person they are, often based on the language used. And details we can't find from logs / armory.
Such simple questions such as 'can you make our raid times' Are so often met with 'i'd prefer to raid only half of the days you schedule' whilst it baffles me that people even bother applying, it does happen - and more often than not. Other questions such as 'do you have stable internet and a capable computer for 25man raiding' is so often met with 'i run on minimum settings and only occasionally DC, maybe once a night'. Not what we're looking for. If everybody DCs once a night you get nowhere.

Then you have the logistal questions 'would you be willing to respec to fit the needs of the raid?' no real wrong answer but flexibility is good. I don't think we've ever been told 'no' however answers vary from 'yes, I'd be willing to use a different talent in my CC tier' to 'yes, I'm capable of playing all specs of my class at a competant level and enjoy doing so, I also use alts to fill other roles and to help class stacking where it's helpful'

As you can see some answers are much more desirable than others - and thus, we have an application form.
I think if your recruitment process is done purely by 1 person or a small group of people the form could be replaced by in game chat, or VOIP interview. However in a guild where all raiders get to voice their opinions and concerns having a form that can be perused at the guilds leisure is far more efficient.

[PutressFIRST]

There are not many successful raiding guilds that just blindly accept every player that whispers for an invite.

A well written app provides information for the recruiting officer to base an initial opinion as to whether the player is even fit for freinds and family in the guild. Applications remove some of the dama and work involved in weeding out obvious bad players before you have to waste any resources or time on discovering they are bad. No, you will learn nothing about the personality of the player with a simple application. That is why you follow up the application with a well thought out interview over voic chat.

Exactly this. Agree 100%.

[Cyriaa]

I would have very much liked to have read your original post, except you deleted it :/
I haven't read through all 26 pages yet but I wanted to chime in with a few points:

About a month ago I left my previous guild, we were struggling with progression due to various reasons (players under performing, lack of attendance, nobody researching fights, lack of leadership etc) and I started applying when I was 2/6H MGV 1/6H HoF 4/4N Terrace.
Two guilds in particular I want to mention:

The first didn't have an application process, I spoke to the person through realID and expressed my concerns, wants, previous raiding experience and so on, and I wanted more information on his guild. He didn't look very far into me, I wasn't even applying at that point but he denied me based on the fact that I'm currently not progressed, and that my H Madness kill was with the 30% nerf in place. Here he missed out the opportunity to pick up an awesome healer with a really solid past raiding experience, because there was no application process for me to elaborate on.

Funny thing was, I wasn't too concerned about progression back then due to some out of game/irl issues.

Second guild was the one I actually applied to and wanted in (my current guild). In my application I stated my problems with my current situation like I did with the previous guy, and expressed my knowledge of class and previous raiding experience. I don't know what was said on my application due to the way they're handled but in the interview things went well. I was asked to elaborate on Mistweaving vs Fistweaving, asked questions about my previous progression, how many attempts it took to kill such and such and how I handled drama and so forth.
I was accepted into this guild and I'm very happy with where I'm at.

Here's the differences; Big Crits had an application process that gave me the opportunity to show off my knowledge of my class, spec, and raiding. Not only that though but the application shows the recruiting officers/guild what kind of person I am by the way I type, the structure of my sentences, the words I use and how I use them.

if i tulk lyk am stopid azz den y wud anybudy cruut mah?

I've seen applications like this before in previous guilds. Not only that but it gives off a bit of personality. The mumble interview elaborates on your knowledge AND personality. Not everybody realizes that they do this, but if they don't like the way somebody responds back to them then there's a good chance that they're going to deny that person regardless of their progression and knowledge. This is a social game after all, so how you fit in with everybody is just as important as how well you can play your class.


I'll be honest with you, being a girl gamer sucks. You're discriminated against, that's just it. There's not very many girl gamers that can not only play well, but get along with everybody without giving off the vibe that they're flaunting what they have. I have a really good friend (one that I have a huge crush on and she knows it) that is an awesome healing priest, and as MrNiceGuy said, it can drive people to be over confident. She IS an amazing player (one of the best I've played with to be honest) but when she and I raid together, I definitely get a little cocky. So being a girl, does matter. But, it's YOUR responsibility to play well, express your knowledge of class, and to make sure that you don't drop any signals, or anything that can be considered one. Like I said, I haven't read all 26 pages but on the last few pages I see that you're constantly telling people that you're a girl. That's not good.
Whether you like to believe it or not, it tells other people that you want attention. Who cares if they think you're a guy but you're not? Let them think that, whats important is that you want people to accept you in a guild. Telling them that you're a girl isn't going to help.

As far as pugging goes, you're on Illidan. Pugs on Illidan are good, but they're also super elitist and will kick you in a heartbeat for somebody else because of the availability on Illidan. Don't get used to pugging heroics, because if you ever transfer of the server you'll find that there are very few pugs that will be able to successfully complete even normal modes depending on where you go.
I also doubt that you complete current HM in pugs, especially seen as many of the difficult bosses that you've downed (H Rag/H Nef) you only downed once, which in a progression minded guild sends a red flag stating that this person was carried through these kills. Having multiple kills is important, because it says "My first kill wasn't an accident, I know what I'm doing and I am capable of killing this boss; I understand the fight and it's mechanics, and can apply my knowledge of my class to this fight."

Here is what I would recommend to you;

Apply. Show off you're knowledge of your class, be confident when you're doing so; nobody is going to take you if you say "Yea, I understand. It was probably a bad idea to begin with" (that's where you went wrong on that application btw). Don't mention that you're a girl anywhere on your application unless they specifically ask for it, in which case if they get further into that, be sure to let them know that you're not trying to use that to gain leverage. I'll be honest with you, your current and past progression isn't very impressive, so I wouldn't recommend applying to top end progression guilds like Blood Legion, Method, Vodka, etc. You don't have what they're looking for. However, there are plenty of other guilds out there that are a little further progressed than you, that with proper knowledge of your class, ability to display that and decent world of logs you can get into. If your dps and uptimes are low, practice practice practice. Usually, if you have the drive to improve yourself and self motivation, that's something that's going to be reflected on your application without you even having to state it.

I hope you can take away some of what I said and apply it to your self and good luck on your guild search.

[Raiju]

On a thread with 25 pages: I have clarified it only a few times. I have also gone ahead and clarified other various statements that I have not said. What is your point? So having an evag, because I like to double pot in LFR/flask/food buff -- that's an attitude? Why on earth should I call it an epeen?

I never said what you should call it, the fact is you've brought up your gender numerous more times than anyone else in the thread. It's not just gender - if anyone continuously brings something irrelevant up in an app I will get just as annoyed, but it's common for girls to do it with gender. There are plenty of girls who don't at every possible moment exclaim to the online world they are female too, and given this is raiding not online dating you can guess who I'd prefer to raid with.

If all I see from someone is corrections they're X before every statement (can be job, race, religion, whatever I don't give a damn) I am simply going to not bring them into a guild. The last thing I or anyone in my guild wants is to hear about this one thing every hour of every day, and given experience of what one has seen that is what will be expected. It's about presenting yourself.

Also if you think you're justified in the amount of times you've brought it up, do you think you are the *only* girl in this thread?

[yurano]

Guild apps have traditionally only been used for 'progression' guilds. In the current 'MoP era', progression refers to Heroic mode guilds.

Back in the day with prevalent guild hopping, guilds were on the constant lookout for new members, hence the guild apps. These days, guild hopping is has been significantly reduced so you don't need the brutal efficiency of guild apps to adequately fill your roster.

For casual guilds, content gets nerfed over time (unlike back in BC) so members don't have to guild hop to experience content. Casual guilds will slowly but surely clear content, eventually. Back in BC, if you were stuck in a T4 guild, the only way to move up is to guild hop.

The changes in the way raids are accessed has significantly reduced the need for players to switch guilds to progress, reducing the need for an efficient recruitment mechanism (guild apps).

[twinkleblur]

applications were kinda stupid..didnt make since you decided to skip out on who could have been your greatest raider because he failed your grammar quiz..who cares if he cant type..apparently typing skill= ability.

[IxilaFA]

I actually agree with the concept of this thread. I've spent many years of my life filling out job applications and sending in resumes so filled full of shit to fluff up my skills and abilities that having to do so for a video game is just ridiculous. I understand the linking of logs and posting pics of your UI and your computer specs because those really do help build the view of a possible raider, but I don't see where experience, theorycrafting, "why did you choose the talents you did" and other such questions are really necessary. Many of the questions that are asked could be solved by a simple in-game chat or using a VOIP to chat with the person. At least then you'd get the full picture rather someone faking every answer just to get a good response.

Also I believe World of Logs only works to a certain extent. It helps to see that the Pally you're looking at is using Light of Dawn inappropriately, or the DPS is using a crappy rotation for a stand-still boss, but that's about it. I once applied to a US 100 guild (not going to mention names since they might peruse these forums, and this isn't meant as an insult as I fully respect their skills and abilities) who had me link a World of Logs and proceeded to shred apart my entire play style from there. Keep in mind I was playing a healer and at the end of Dragon Soul where everything, even 8/8 HC, was loleasy. They asked me why I didn't use Mana Tide every 3 minutes (because my entire raid had 80% mana the entire fight?), why I didn't pop CDs when I should've (again, because nobody took damage), why I didn't cast certain spells enough (because when nobody takes damage I don't need to cast Riptide 100 times in a fight), etc, etc. Even when progressing on content or in LFR I don't think WoL gives you an adequate picture of a raider. Maybe my guild's strategy is different from there's, which requires different CD cycling? Maybe we use a strategy that increases the amount of time DPS zergs the boss at the expense of extra raid damage taken, which requires different spells being used at different times? There a multitude of things that have to be considered, and before anyone says "well you should just explain that to them" I don't have the desire to sit here and type up a 3-page essay as to why I would be a worthy addition to your raid. Take me on an app run or talk to me over vent. In my honest opinion, a player with good attitude and can learn and adjust on the fly is far superior to someone who knows how to do the math and how to min/max their character, because sometimes in the heat of battle it's necessary to adapt to a poor situation and turn it into a successful kill. Hell, half of my guild's first kills have been very messy attempts that were turned around using just the right set of abilities to adjust.

We don't use an application at all for my guild. Usually we get responses to recruitment macros in trade, or just whispers from people in general, and talk to them for a bit, making sure they are okay with our raid times and that there is nothing in their past that would cause a problem. After that we take them on a challenge mode run, or try to fit them into some farm bosses and see how they perform. If everything is alright we accept them as a trial. I'm willing to say 99% of people make it in as a trial and are then weeded out through disagreements with policies, poor play, or just not making it to enough runs. This works to our advantage though because the people who do finally make it through our trial process are usually, by that time, cemented in as a part of the guild, since we tend to be very personal with each other.

[Shaley]

I would have very much liked to have read your original post, except you deleted it :/

oh my friend, nothing leaves the internet.

Quote Originally Posted by Barberry View Post
This is something that has been on my mind for a long time. As someone who plays on a large server and someone who has pugged for the majority of my time on WoW, I find this to be one of the biggest issues with the game.

Most players reach a point where they would like to join a guild that is focused on clearing end-game content: After all, if you enjoy raiding, that is the logical next step. However, I find that the "Guild Application" system really does not do a player much justice in terms of screening potentials, and I'll explain why.

First off, I have met many amazing pugs in my WoW time and found numerous others without a home. Many have quit this expansion, because 'guild requirements' have become so rigorous about how much one theory-crafts, instead of actual game play.

I believe there is a time and a place to theory-craft: In fact, I love to do so, but I do not want to go into a two page discussion over one talent in an application for admittance or denial. In fact, if you are interested in finding out how knowledgeable I am about my class, why not just talk to me in-game or via voice communication about it? Actually talk to me, instead of being a snobby elitist that knit-picks everything and making assumptions.

---
Further, I can understand people want to find the right fit for their guild, I really do, but when you make the process so ridiculous, you will end up with eventually unhappy people who will possibly quit.

Another thing that really bothers me?
If you have something like three hard modes down in MV, should you really be so close-minded that you are:

- Unwilling to try raiders that haven't played since Vanilla
- Un-open to the fact that RNG exists and some people who are NOT guilded may have a harder time obtaining specific pieces for their class
- Unwilling to take on players who show potential and are trying to get better at the game

Furthermore, if these players can pug your progression, then perhaps you should give some of those people a shot. The whole third-rate guilds comparing themselves to others like Blood Legion is really annoying. You are a guild looking for decent players, who you can grow and work with. Everyone goes through a learning period: Some get better and some do not. Please remember you also once went through a learning period.

My gender is irrelevant on your application: In fact, whenever I see the gender questions I run, because it usually means automatic assumptions based on this.

Why do some guilds have trial periods that are insanely long? I can denote if someone is a decent raider within a few raids: I don't understand the point of this, or forcing people to crap out a ton of gold on repairs, just because it takes so long for a decision to be made.

Also, you can decline an application in a pious manner: You don't have to be a complete jerk about it. You see, us mid-grade players are the ones most likely to improve to a much higher potential: Yet, that cannot happen when you make requirements so ridiculous.

Raid with these people a few times and maybe you'll catch onto something here: People who do have the capability to excel given the chance. Yet, that chance doesn't come.

I'm OK with pugging the amount of hard-modes your guild boasts in the meantime. If people like me can do it with complete strangers, I'm pretty sure they would do 100x better with guild mates. This and many other reasons I feel are part of the reason so many mid-grade players are leaving the game.

Flowers grow with water and sunshine: Drowning them in water stifles potential growth and serves no purpose other than killing the plant.

On that note:

What do you hate about guild applications and the whole process?

[Resentful]

applications were kinda stupid..didnt make since you decided to skip out on who could have been your greatest raider because he failed your grammar quiz..who cares if he cant type..apparently typing skill= ability.

I fail at my grammar myself but typing in English with a rather simple question is rather easy and wth I have NEVER seen a guild do a grammar quiz in my entire wow ''career'' If you can't do it in terms of answering simple questions then by all means that guild will find another member who can.

[Shaley]

I don't see where experience, theorycrafting, "why did you choose the talents you did" and other such questions are really necessary.

Experience matters. Why wouldn't it? I may think I'm an awesome 'baller, but I'm not in Kobe's league. I'm not even in DJ Byrd's league. Practice makes perfect, and someone who just started playing this game likely isn't going to be of the same quality as someone that's been doing the same song and dance for 7 years.

If you're applying to a progressing guild, you need to know "why" you picked a talent. It's part of knowing your class. Reading "pick these 6 talents" on icy-veins isn't "knowing" your class, it's knowing how to copy/paste someone else's work.

Many of the questions that are asked could be solved by a simple in-game chat or using a VOIP to chat with the person.

I'm not going to make special time to log onto WoW to chit-chat with a potential recruit at his convenience. If you want to play in our club, fill out the application so I can read it at MY convenience. Applicants aren't doing us a favor, we're doing you the favor by bringing you in. Now, once an app proves themselves, it's cohesive, and that mentality no longer exists. It's a team game. But I've never understood why applicants want to do interviews on THEIR terms. You don't call up a job and schedule your own interview. They tell you when to be there.

We don't do applications anymore, but when we did, it was simple. We wanted people who would do anything to ensure progression. People say "I'm good DPS, and I'll do anything to help the group progress". Welp, guess you're gonna be filling out an application for 10 minutes.

They asked me why I didn't use Mana Tide every 3 minutes (because my entire raid had 80% mana the entire fight?), why I didn't pop CDs when I should've (again, because nobody took damage), why I didn't cast certain spells enough (because when nobody takes damage I don't need to cast Riptide 100 times in a fight), etc, etc. Even when progressing on content or in LFR I don't think WoL gives you an adequate picture of a raider.

Pretty irresponsible actions on the guild, there. To a point, I can see the Mana Tide thing. Going from 80% to 100% is better than getting down to 40%, and then maybe something goes wrong, and you guys have to blow your mana, and then you're using MT to go from 10%-30%. But if it's a farm boss one-shot kind of thing, and the cooldown isn't necessary, it's not a big deal. Healing cooldowns aren't like DPS cooldowns.

If people looked at our parses, they'd wonder why the rogue is doing -SHIT- DPS on some fights. Dig deeper and you'd find the answer. It's nothing that a simple "why is this the case?" wouldn't solve, but for them to, seemingly, be on the attack upon viewing the parse, is kind if trashy.

The rogue in question in our parses sometimes does things like paint the tiles on dogs, or soaks all the sparks on Emperor. Strategy has to be kept in mind when viewing WoL, and those who don't consider something may be outside-the-box are irresponsible.

[Huehuecoyotl]

applications were kinda stupid..didnt make since you decided to skip out on who could have been your greatest raider because he failed your grammar quiz..who cares if he cant type..apparently typing skill= ability.

i ran a guild for 5 years. we had an application form we designed ourselves, for a specific purpose; filtering out a particular type of person from ever getting into the guild in the first place. it worked pretty well. in my experience, the sort of people who were going to throw their hands in the air and start complaining about having to complete an application, were the same people who would be causing drama of one kind or another within a pretty short period of time. the people who understood why we were doing it tended to fit in much better.

we also had a section where you had to tell us a joke. an amazing way of being able to reject morons based on a pretty small amount of information.

[Sorrior]

Ok 13 pages and am i REALLY one of the only ones to see that all you hardcore hyper progress based guild guys are basically not getting it.

I for one am fine with where i am in game TBH i enjoy teaching new players more then i do raiding. Thing is the OP is TRYING to point out that ALOT of mediocre to downright bad guilds are going app nuts. And not even trying to help newer players.

As a guy who was going no heirloom for a time trust me when i say the environment for new players/no heirlooms is pretty vile. From a monk only lacking weapon heirlooms dissing the new players i was teaching(they DID have horrid DPS but i talked to em ALL individually anout how to improve AND THEY HAVE) and barely doung more than me as a brewmaster. To a group of buddies leveling a guys enchanting by needing EVERYTHING and saying he "needs" for enchanting.

And those are pre BC content and i DO have more. To new player who put up with ALL of this yeah they might not know the sites so you tell/help them. You NUTURE new talent by the gods i have a friend who i can tell you now will be an insanely good player better than i ever will be i suspect. But mighta quit had nice people not been there.

Now here is the thing. Low-mid end raid guilds really shouldn't be so pucky. You CANNOT learn the same stuff through leveling anymore that we once did. The days of dying to wandering elites or walking into a place full of them are gone. Instances by and large are tank and spank and by the time they get into heroics enough people are geared that no strategy is needed and thus don't learn one reason healers aside i try and take it slow even at low levels.

Now these people might hear about a raid guild and ask to join. Why not ask them in whisper real quick what they've done. Or even just run a random group with em. Just get a feel. I mean yeah we ALL get why top tier guilds need it. But when the majority of guilds do this it's just ludicrous.

It's like if say a Popeyes asked for a 20 page resume, background check, full body physical, CAT scan and ALL of this stuff. I mean they're not the feds or even Microsoft what does it matter.

Again TOP GUILDS ARE GOING TO ASK FOR APPS!!!! And people will GLADLY do it. But when local normal mode guild #14365 does it ot's kinda silly.

So yeah i think the REAL point is that apps are getting out of control and that newer/lessucky players get kibda screwed over evrn if they have GREAT potential.

[Resentful]

Snip.

Then find another random guild#217772 that doesn't have an app process it's not a hard concept.

[Brakthir]

applications were kinda stupid..didnt make since you decided to skip out on who could have been your greatest raider because he failed your grammar quiz..who cares if he cant type..apparently typing skill= ability.

It's not JUST about typing skill. It gives the guild an idea of how much care and thought the person is actually putting into the application process. If you can't be bothered to do an even minor spellcheck on your application, we don't want you.

[Deleted]

While the guild I was leading frequently had 2-3 girls in the raid team (10man) at least at any time, he has a point. It's been tiring throughout this thread to see the she corrections throughout. Surely you should be happy that people don't care about your gender and are looking at your performance and not the other way around.

edit: At times I have been called a woman repeatedly, I tend to just clarify at the end of the discussion when all things are said and done - and not every single opportunity.

I dont think asking peope to be accurate about gender is what that social dinosaur above posted. Last guild i was in in wow was about 40% women. And no one got treated any differnt, the fact that the poster i quoted eventhinks that tells me a lot about his attitiudes, and probably why women are so rare i the groups he runs with.

[Brakthir]

Guild applications are pathetic anyway, why should I pretend im applying to a job when its just some fantasy game I want to have fun on.

When I was an officer for my guild I done all my applications through vent, I always managed to find decent players, because lets face it, unless your the top 10 guilds you shouldnt care about someones UI for god sake. People play differently, what I think is a clusterfuck is a perfectly organised UI to someone else.

In any case, I was put off guilds that had massive application forms, rather than simple fact checking.

Plus its so impersonal, you get to know people alot better if you just talk to them, get them involved in vent and the chat, we used to joke that you lose dkp if you werent on vent talking to us. Even though everyone quit wow I still have friends from that guild I talk to every day. Who might not have made it past the "fill in the blanks" stage.

Anyway thats just me, you might prefer a more corporate way to play wow, thats upto you I guess.

EDIT: One last reminder, its a game with dungeons and dragons and bit tittied elves. Its not a job, we dont have to be so serious.

Progression guilds are serious business. Your casual guild may not require applications but we have higher standards.

[ZulZul]

So all I'm getting here is you're complaining that you are below the standards of your guild in terms of gems, reforging, rotation, etc. L2p.

According to your sig, you quit wow. Quit bashing people's post that are still playing.

[Resentful]

According to your sig, you quit wow. Quit bashing people's post that are still playing.

He still has the experience to say what he can say hes been in top tier guilds hes done the app processes and hes not exactly bashing hes telling you the truth in a harsh way in addition if he was bashing he would of been banned.

[Sorrior]

Then find another random guild#217772 that doesn't have an app process it's not a hard concept.

Heh point is not all guilds need it and it's being overused...And PLEASE don't do stupid shit like asssuming i'm butthurt. I have a very nice guild i am in. No app. Not the best but works for me. I also have a side guild where i help new players. So i AM quite content. My whole post and point was that apps are so overused that really they're kinda becoming ludicrous.