Why Guild Applications are becoming a thing of the past

[Mormolyce]

What I am suggesting is that mid-level guilds actually take more care in screening applicants. I am also suggesting more interaction, with less elitism.

How, without spending an enormous amount of time with every candidate?

While WOL's gives you a nice idea, you also should keep in mind that not ALL pugs go according to plan. Logs cannot always tell you the number of various circumstances that occur within such encounters.

Why would you upload a log if it didn't show you in a good light?

---------- Post added 2013-01-15 at 05:49 AM ----------

I agree so much with this. I don't know what make people being so elitist these days. Raiding is a lot easier, playing the game too.

The world's serious progression raiders pretty much agreed back in Cataclysm that the raid content was more challenging than ever. Haven't read their opinion on the first tier of MoP but it sure seemed tough from what I was watching. Don't judge HM raiding by the standards of NM raiding, it's not the same thing at all.

---------- Post added 2013-01-15 at 05:52 AM ----------

Weren't subs higher going into Cata? *shrug*. This tier is pretty great too but I had more fun in T11 with the exception of a few bosses.

Pretty much steady last I looked.

[Sorrior]

No, many of us get it, but do not agree.

Your stories are great, too bad all of us had those moments. People did the same shit in Vanilla dude.

What you are missing: Its THEIR GUILD, so they can be as PICKY as they like.

---------- Post added 2013-01-15 at 12:38 AM ----------



Stop screaming Elitism all the time... using apps =/= elitism.

Then you were on a shit server or something because i don't recall alot of that shit from vanilla.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

Then you were on a shit server or something because i don't recall alot of that shit from vanilla.

Or you didn't play at the time. Or you were too naive to remember it.

My server was old, and yes there were still trolls in Vanilla. Where do you think the term "loot ninja" came from? Rogues needing on lockboxes saying "I need for lock picking!" and the like .... yes, common everywhere in vanilla.

Regardless, my server has nothing to do with this topic.

[Beebeey]

How, without spending an enormous amount of time with every candidate?
Why would you upload a log if it didn't show you in a good light?

No log would equate to automatic denial. I guess bad logs would as well, but at least it's something. Actually, my wow Heroes seems to have a ton of logs that have my name included, but raids I never even participated in: I'm not even sure how to remove that, since these weren't even raids I've done.

[Sorrior]

Or you didn't play at the time. Or you were too naive to remember it.

My server was old, and yes there were still trolls in Vanilla. Where do you think the term "loot ninja" came from? Rogues needing on lockboxes saying "I need for lock picking!" and the like .... yes, common everywhere in vanilla.

Regardless, my server has nothing to do with this topic.

Oh i know loot ninjas and huntards. And i was there. i started october 19th october 2005. Was a major alt whore as well. Leveling didn't have as many crazies in some ways.

But they also got called out on it and marked as such. Wasn't the same sorta problem. And group wise as long as it wasn't the leader they weren't kick proof by having buddies.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

Oh i know loot ninjas and huntards. And i was there. i started october 19th october 2005. Was a major alt whore as well. Leveling didn't have as many crazies in some ways.

But they also got called out on it and marked as such. Wasn't the same sorta problem. And group wise as long as it wasn't the leader they weren't kick proof by having buddies.

You're right. It may have just been dealt with better, so it wasn't seen as such of a problem back then. But it definitely happened.

[Sorrior]

You're right. It may have just been dealt with better, so it wasn't seen as such of a problem back then. But it definitely happened.

Yeah my particular cases were just unusually glaring ones...Even pulling the gear doesn't matter till 90 line when most of us were no heirlooms.

I actually made a point to memorize his name and server LOL.


But enough OT i say LOL.

[Otimus]

I agree so much with this. I don't know what make people being so elitist these days. Raiding is a lot easier, playing the game too.

I've actually noticed this through the years, as things become easier to do, the requirements individuals have on strangers has gotten higher and higher and higher AND HIGHER AND HIGHER. Like, man, back in the day, it wasn't all that hard to get into a pug. I mean, yeah, it was still a bit to do, sure, but now, everyone wants you to of not only done it, but to have nearly all the loot you'd need from it already obtained, or some such.

As Blizzard makes things more accessible, the top end users find their own ways to gate as much of the game off as they can.

[Theendgamelv3]

Depends. In 10m it can be important. If you got good alternatives you can stick the spriest with shadow and let the shaman use their off spec instead. Then, when required, said shaman would be able to go healing. If that shaman has good attendance, the priest can stick to shadow (which he's very good at). There's no problem. But if nobody can reliably fill that spot of off healing you may be better off with an spriest who is able to play their off spec well.

What if that Shadow Priest is your best dps?

[Raiju]

I've actually noticed this through the years, as things become easier to do, the requirements individuals have on strangers has gotten higher and higher and higher AND HIGHER AND HIGHER. Like, man, back in the day, it wasn't all that hard to get into a pug. I mean, yeah, it was still a bit to do, sure, but now, everyone wants you to of not only done it, but to have nearly all the loot you'd need from it already obtained, or some such.

As Blizzard makes things more accessible, the top end users find their own ways to gate as much of the game off as they can.

Nice rose tints there.

People have been asking you to overgear places since I began playing in late vanilla. You're just pretending it didn't exist. It's also not top players who do this, it's baddies who want a group to carry them (usually)

[Simulacrum]

As Blizzard makes things more accessible, the top end users find their own ways to gate as much of the game off as they can.

I don't see how things are any different now than they have ever been, beyond what tools players have available to them when it comes to estimating someone's expected preformance.

For example, as Barberry's post right above there inspired me to do, looking at her wow-heroes profile to see that she, in ilvl 497 gear, has never ranked above 200 for any fight ever (outside of LFR, which I don't understand why people log), it's safe to say that she is not a good player who is only brought otraids to fill empty spots (rather than because there are alternatives).

I don't put a lot of emphasis on the importance of scoring highly on the logs (since they're easy to manipulate), but if you're a good player you should be ranking highly all of the time as a mere side-effect of you being a good player who knows what they're doing, without actually going out of your way to hit the top 10 or something.

[rowaasr13]

Experience matters. Why wouldn't it? I may think I'm an awesome 'baller, but I'm not in Kobe's league. I'm not even in DJ Byrd's league. Practice makes perfect, and someone who just started playing this game likely isn't going to be of the same quality as someone that's been doing the same song and dance for 7 years.

Are you seriously telling me that you never seen raiders who stand in same shit for the months? Or raiders that can pick up mechanics of fight in one night? It's ability to learn that matters, not dumb wasting of time. Otherwise everything in this world would've been dominated by old farts.

This is my own personal little hate in to many guild's attitude to requirement: previous experience > all. No matter if I later meet them in random run and catch them on stupidiest mistakes or outright not knowing stuff written openly in dungeon journal, but if at moment of applying I don't show them previous kills, they won't even listen why I don't have them.

[Raiju]

Are you seriously telling me that you never seen raiders who stand in same shit for the months? Or raiders that can pick up mechanics of fight in one night? It's ability to learn that matters, not dumb wasting of time. Otherwise everything in this world would've been dominated by old farts.

This is my own personal little hate in to many guild's attitude to requirement: previous experience > all. No matter if I later meet them in random run and catch them on stupidiest mistakes or outright not knowing stuff written openly in dungeon journal, but if at moment of applying I don't show them previous kills, they won't even listen why I don't have them.

Guess what, calling people out on THEIR mistakes isn't going to get you invited. Why would they want that? You can prove lack of experience is not an issue with you without basically ruining your chances of ever getting in that guild. Very few people will enjoy being called out because they are complacent now and cba to keep up to date.

Or to further the job interview analogy, would you call the interviewer out on some possible bad work you are aware of him doing stating you can do it better? You can be as right as you want but very few will be happy to say that you looked promising when you basically threatened their own position. WoW's position is more social (for those who may not get the leap)

I also agree with Cattlehunter. If you have a lot of logs you should naturally be ranking a fair amount. The reason to use something like LFR (not for ranks but for performance analysis) is that for people like myself, almost all my raid logs have been private just because thats how the guilds I was in did it. They weren't interested in showing off as much as just using it for analysis.

[Deleted]

Guilds have the right to use whatever filtering they wish when they get new members. You can question their reasoning and methods but you can never deny them their methods. If the dont want you in for this/that reason... they you dont get in simple as that. Forcing your welcome is the most arrogant thing one can do if one cant take the "hint". No means no son end of story.

Guild apps are here to stay.

[rowaasr13]

Guess what, calling people out on THEIR mistakes isn't going to get you invited. Why would they want that? You can prove lack of experience is not an issue with you without basically ruining your chances of ever getting in that guild. Very few people will enjoy being called out because they are complacent now and cba to keep up to date.

I generally discover that there are mistakes to call later, when I already found another guild and met some people that I was previously applying to in some random groups. Guess what? I'm calling pretty much anyone on mistakes in such groups, because encounter won't succeed without people fixing it. It is just fun to make a mental note while at it "oh, isn't that guy who just jumped down on Elegon from that guild that asked full T11-T13 heroic kills in app I've seen last month?"

Or to further the job interview analogy, would you call the interviewer out on some possible bad work you are aware of him doing stating you can do it better? You can be as right as you want but very few will be happy to say that you looked promising when you basically threatened their own position. WoW's position is more social (for those who may not get the leap)

You must've had experience with some pretty shitty jobs. McDonalds? Store clerk or waiter? Because in most highly competitive industries that actually require a brain, being able to accurately analyze what recruiting tech guy tells you about how things generally work in company and point problems is that is instant hire ticket. People LOVE when someone have good insight.

It seems to me that you're follower of "don't be smart, be obedient" way and that's pretty much what applications is all about. No wonder you support them.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

I generally discover that there are mistakes to call later, when I already found another guild and met some people that I was previously applying to in some random groups. Guess what? I'm calling pretty much anyone on mistakes in such groups, because encounter won't succeed without people fixing it. It is just fun to make a mental note while at it "oh, isn't that guy who just jumped down on Elegon from that guild that asked full T11-T13 heroic kills in app I've seen last month?"

You must've had experience with some pretty shitty jobs. McDonalds? Store clerk or waiter? Because in most highly competitive industries that actually require a brain, being able to accurately analyze what recruiting tech guy tells you about how things generally work in company and point problems is that is instant hire ticket. People LOVE when someone have good insight.

It seems to me that you're follower of "don't be smart, be obedient" way and that's pretty much what applications is all about. No wonder you support them.

Do you not understand what an analogy is? Being obedient doesn't mean you are dumb, as you imply. Its not a one or the other type of deal. If you can't be obedient and follow simple instructions, no, good guilds will not want you. You seem to have the same attitude problem the OP does: "I'm too good to fill these out, and jump through a guilds hoops"

[Deleted]

What if that Shadow Priest is your best dps?

Get a competent lock in your raid team. Kidding aside, yeah, of course this also affects such choice. But right now my example is pretty good since shadow priest aren't that dandy: at least one of the other multiDoTers are always better, except for Elegon. They're esp not dandy in 10m HoR so the spriest better be alright with playing disc, holy, bench, alt, getting carried.

[...]

Or to further the job interview analogy, would you call the interviewer out on some possible bad work you are aware of him doing stating you can do it better? You can be as right as you want but very few will be happy to say that you looked promising when you basically threatened their own position.

[...]

This kind of stuff I can only imagine in some kind of comedy. "You're hired!", "So we can you start?". Actually I'd swear I've seen something like this in a comedy. Can't envision or recall it though.

---------- Post added 2013-01-15 at 01:05 PM ----------

Do you not understand what an analogy is? Being obedient doesn't mean you are dumb, as you imply. Its not a one or the other type of deal. If you can't be obedient and follow simple instructions, no, good guilds will not want you. You seem to have the same attitude problem the OP does: "I'm too good to fill these out, and jump through a guilds hoops"

The point is indeed sometimes it is better to shut up and not point out something unfair or something you disagree with. Sometimes it is better to comply for the greater good, because by not complying you're further away from home.

E.g. if a cop asks me for my ID and I don't see why, I don't want to show him, but I will anyway because I just [EDIT: don't] want to get into some kind of argument and just want to move on. YMMV.

[Raiju]

It seems to me that you're follower of "don't be smart, be obedient" way and that's pretty much what applications is all about. No wonder you support them

There's a difference between being smart and shooting yourself in the foot. Your time to be smart is when you are IN the guild. That is your time to tell them what they are doing wrong so they can improve. As for shitty jobs? It's just the reality of the situation. Sucking up is a natural part of life and I wouldn't have got my current job if I said "Yeah I think your website looks tacky and you should change this and that, which is why you should hire me" to the IT-guy interviewer. Maybe some other IT guy interviewer would agree but he had just redesigned this site and liked it. Now I'm part of the company (admittedly that IT guy isn't even around anymore!) I have a lot more say in what goes on, my opinion is valued from day 1 of being in here, just like in a guild.

It's about knowing when to speak and to pick your battles. It's a good thing for people to learn in a video game where repercussions are minimal, while we're on the subject.

[rowaasr13]

Do you not understand what an analogy is? Being obedient doesn't mean you are dumb, as you imply. Its not a one or the other type of deal. If you can't be obedient and follow simple instructions, no, good guilds will not want you. You seem to have the same attitude problem the OP does: "I'm too good to fill these out, and jump through a guilds hoops"

How's that a problem? I never ever claim being master of everything, but there's seval things that I know that I excel at. When I have confidence in my words, I will complain/point at mistakes and if people chose to not listen I'll say "screw that" and move to greener pastures. This attitude so far gave me 15+ years of job and salary of more than ten times country's average. This attitude in WoW, where I confident in my ability to quickly learn and understand logic behind mechanics, gave me heroic kills in that T11, that thread above calls "overtuned" when my guild back then accepted me in heroic dungeon blues and unpopular back them demo warlock spec, because I outdamaged on test dungeon run guild's own damagers. Can you simply imagine for a moment than yes, people CAN be good players without all this sucking up/following orders shit? Actually, open mind and thinking with your own brain makes you better player, than just being order-following drone.

[Raiju]

I'm sure you being such the go-getter was the reason you landed your job (and you got that job immediately did you?) and not any previous experience / grades / connections / pure dumb luck.

Plenty of people try being over-confident on their interviews and showing off. There's a reason it isn't recommended.