The Brewmaster Tanking Guide [5.4]

[Deleted]

I hate to keep beating this dead horse, but I have yet to see any solid argument as to why BrM's are going for soft expertise cap instead of the hard cap.

I tried different builds but I keep going back to 15% expertise, 2.2 - 2.5K haste and everything else in Crit with a healthy 500k healthpool. With this build I have no problems with Chi at all and I'm spamming purifies.

cheers,
Xarmon.

[gynshon]

I hate to keep beating this dead horse, but I have yet to see any solid argument as to why BrM's are going for soft expertise cap instead of the hard cap.

I tried different builds but I keep going back to 15% expertise, 2.2 - 2.5K haste and everything else in Crit with a healthy 500k healthpool. With this build I have no problems with Chi at all and I'm spamming purifies.

cheers,
Xarmon.

Logs? Just because it is your personal preference, just like mine at 7.5% is my personal preference, doesn't mean you or I are "right". Logs will show it in direct compares.

[Deleted]

Logs? Just because it is your personal preference, just like mine at 7.5% is my personal preference, doesn't mean you or I are "right". Logs will show it in direct compares.

Logs are great for a lot of things, but I fail to see how this helps this specific discussion. Logs will just show an average of 7,5% of your attacks being parried and mine will show 0%.

None of our abilities ignore parry so the effect is exactly the same as hit, why is everyone going for the hit cap and ignore parry? You might as well go for 4% hit and 11% expertise then, or 0% hit and 15% expertise. The effect is the same.

cheers,
Xarmon

[Asmalya]

Logs are great for a lot of things, but I fail to see how this helps this specific discussion. Logs will just show an average of 7,5% of your attacks being parried and mine will show 0%.

None of our abilities ignore parry so the effect is exactly the same as hit, why is everyone going for the hit cap and ignore parry? You might as well go for 4% hit and 11% expertise then, or 0% hit and 15% expertise. The effect is the same.

cheers,
Xarmon

It will show difference in shuffle uptime, elusive brew stacks uptime and usuage and last but not least if you want to invest the time also damage received

[The Madgod]

Logs are great for a lot of things, but I fail to see how this helps this specific discussion. Logs will just show an average of 7,5% of your attacks being parried and mine will show 0%.

None of our abilities ignore parry so the effect is exactly the same as hit, why is everyone going for the hit cap and ignore parry? You might as well go for 4% hit and 11% expertise then, or 0% hit and 15% expertise. The effect is the same.

cheers,
Xarmon

Bok applies shuffle even when parried... and logs as has been said by Asmalya do much more than see the average number of attacks parried. They tell you everything that happened in-game during a fight, even if your holy paladin used Holy Light at the 2 minute 15 seconds mark.

[Kisho]

I hate to keep beating this dead horse, but I have yet to see any solid argument as to why BrM's are going for soft expertise cap instead of the hard cap.

I tried different builds but I keep going back to 15% expertise, 2.2 - 2.5K haste and everything else in Crit with a healthy 500k healthpool. With this build I have no problems with Chi at all and I'm spamming purifies.

That 'signing your post with your name' thing is kinda pointless. We see your name on the left, you're just wasting your time by signing your name. Pet peeve of mine, I fully admit.

My personal reason for going for 7.5% exp is simple: my guild requires me to offspec as Windwalker in raids on occasion, so I'd rather have 1 gear set that works well for both specs, rather than have to get another gear set for DPS. I'd imagine this reason is shared with a few other Brewmasters at least: it's convenience, essentially.

[gynshon]

Agree with Kisho to a certain aspect. Convenience for WW is part of it as I will occasionally go dps, and instead of wasting the raid's time by reforging/regearing, I just switch over, do my job, and rank.

This is the only Xarmon monk I found, and I just took a guess only because you now only use Xarmon as your username, but also in your signature as well. Xarmon wasn't a common name in wow as a character name it appears.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...armon/advanced

I sincerely hope this isn't you.

Why would you not post logs? I post logs in all of my discussions, I have nothing to hide. My armory is my sig pic, again nothing to hide. The more information we get out there, the better the community will be from it.

[Asmalya]

Agree with Kisho to a certain aspect. Convenience for WW is part of it as I will occasionally go dps, and instead of wasting the raid's time by reforging/regearing, I just switch over, do my job, and rank.

This is the only Xarmon monk I found, and I just took a guess only because you now only use Xarmon as your username, but also in your signature as well. Xarmon wasn't a common name in wow as a character name it appears.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...armon/advanced

I sincerely hope this isn't you.

Why would you not post logs? I post logs in all of my discussions, I have nothing to hide. My armory is my sig pic, again nothing to hide. The more information we get out there, the better the community will be from it.

Think we can safely say thats not him when he said he his back to 15% expertise.

[SurrealNight]

Out of curiosity, is anyone still using AMR with the WW spec selected instead of BrM since AMR weights stam so heavily? And if you are using it, what's your experience with it? Work well?

I try both BrM with dropping the stam cap to 0.35 and the WW spec to try and get where I want with my reforges. Since I'm cheap and rather well geared I've mostly switched to reforge lite since it ignores gems and let it get me to my Hit/Expertise caps. I just ignore the X -> haste reforges.

I'm still sitting at about 6k haste which I like but it's mostly for the more intense fights like Wind Lord.

[Deleted]

I have nothing to hide, we also have WoW in the EU and I'm the only monk named Xarmon.

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...armon/advanced

I moved server this week, but my old guild has some logs here:

http://www.worldoflogs.com/guilds/221168/


I asked for reasons why people are only dodge capping when it comes to expertise, the WW off spec is a very legitimate reason and I can totally get behind that idea. I don't need logs to tell me that either
Logs won't really help in this discussion at all as they are to variable, how can you possibly compare 2,5k expertise vs 2,5k haste in total different scenarios. The only way to get close is to reforge yourself and run the same content with the same group.

Cheers and hugs and kisses for Kisho!! <3
Xarmon

[Deleted]

Source?

Hum, i was about to tell you "test it, you'll see". But i've just done my own tests to give you values and prove you that the glyph is bugged. The results of the test are : the bug has actually been fixed. I don't know when it was fixed, but i can assure you that at least untill the 5.1 patch the Glyphed Guard didn't give the healing bonus to your self heals, except Expel Harm.

[gynshon]

I have nothing to hide, we also have WoW in the EU and I'm the only monk named Xarmon.

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...armon/advanced

I moved server this week, but my old guild has some logs here:

http://www.worldoflogs.com/guilds/221168/


I asked for reasons why people are only dodge capping when it comes to expertise, the WW off spec is a very legitimate reason and I can totally get behind that idea. I don't need logs to tell me that either
Logs won't really help in this discussion at all as they are to variable, how can you possibly compare 2,5k expertise vs 2,5k haste in total different scenarios. The only way to get close is to reforge yourself and run the same content with the same group.

Cheers and hugs and kisses for Kisho!! <3
Xarmon

Not even sure where to begin...

Why are gemming stamina?
Why are you enchanting stamina yet aren't putting on a stamina trinket?
Why do you still have Windsong on a 504 wpn?

Regarding testing ourselves, most of us have. I disagree completely with the 15% expertise, only because my survivability suffered somewhat. It is better reforging that into Crit IMHO. I have ran both, I prefer 7.5% and I know there is a chance that I will lose out on some Chi, however I plan for it, and cannot remember a time when I wanted the Chi and was like, doh parried KS. It is always when I have Chi to spare, or just don't really need it for anything.

I tried to do some log comparisons, but found it difficult to find close fights to compare. Either mine has expired so long, or we outgear the encounter dramatically and the times were way off.

[SurrealNight]

Why are gemming stamina?
Why are you enchanting stamina yet aren't putting on a stamina trinket?
Why do you still have Windsong on a 504 wpn?

Agree there is more efficient ways to stam stack if that is what you are looking for. He is a LW so if you want to stack stamina you should do the following as I have since my 25m H progression group was a bit nervous about a low 500k HP base tank.
1) Change out Wrist and Leg LW enchants, the wrist are 750 stam alone and only cost one thread to swap.
2) Stam flask vs agility
3) Trinkets. Several have ~1500 stam + /use effect.
4) Meta gem

Outside of maybe your blue slots I can't really advocate stacking stam any way else. Doing about half of the above gives me 615K roughly which has felt pretty solid and makes my healers feel a bit better about healing a new BrM to the group.

I've tried the 15% expert cap several times and just always felt like the rating was wasted. Of course I think I'm holding onto a bit more haste than some other tanks here but a missed KS really doesn't bother me that once since it's so rare and I have plenty of Chi.

[Deleted]

Not even sure where to begin...

Why are gemming stamina?
Why are you enchanting stamina yet aren't putting on a stamina trinket?
Why do you still have Windsong on a 504 wpn?

Regarding testing ourselves, most of us have. I disagree completely with the 15% expertise, only because my survivability suffered somewhat. It is better reforging that into Crit IMHO. I have ran both, I prefer 7.5% and I know there is a chance that I will lose out on some Chi, however I plan for it, and cannot remember a time when I wanted the Chi and was like, doh parried KS. It is always when I have Chi to spare, or just don't really need it for anything.

I tried to do some log comparisons, but found it difficult to find close fights to compare. Either mine has expired so long, or we outgear the encounter dramatically and the times were way off.

Thanks for confirming that logs don't help in this discussion and for the rest that has nothing to do with my question or the discussion.

If you look at the top 25 brewmasters in the world (easy to query on wowprogress) you'll see at least 5 different builds. There is no straight forward way to build a brewmaster, it isn't like blood DK's or warriors where everyone is going for the exact same stats and you don't even have to think about it.

I have 4 trinkets, a 4 set and 2 weapons that I swap around depending on fights, and I added stamina through gems and enchants because I don't feel comfortable sitting on a 400-440 k HP on some fights. But again I am not asking anyone's advice on my gear or performance, my only question was:

Why is everyone so against hard capping expertise.

The WW off spec was a good answer and I'm just going to leave it at that. I doubt expertise can be compared to haste mathematically, if it is I remain interested.

[SurrealNight]

Why is everyone so against hard capping expertise.

Because of this

It's not a 2 chi loss. It's a 1 chi, 1 gcd, and 8 energy loss. In the grand scheme of things not a huge deal.

[BM] Hit and Exp: why you don't have to cap them

On average most people seem to miss ~4 KS per fight, how is losing out on 4 chi, 4 gcd's, and 24 energy worth 2550 extra expertise rating that could go into haste or crit or even mastery?

[The Madgod]

Thanks for confirming that logs don't help in this discussion and for the rest that has nothing to do with my question or the discussion.

If you look at the top 25 brewmasters in the world (easy to query on wowprogress) you'll see at least 5 different builds. There is no straight forward way to build a brewmaster, it isn't like blood DK's or warriors where everyone is going for the exact same stats and you don't even have to think about it.

I have 4 trinkets, a 4 set and 2 weapons that I swap around depending on fights, and I added stamina through gems and enchants because I don't feel comfortable sitting on a 400-440 k HP on some fights. But again I am not asking anyone's advice on my gear or performance, my only question was:

Why is everyone so against hard capping expertise.

The WW off spec was a good answer and I'm just going to leave it at that. I doubt expertise can be compared to haste mathematically, if it is I remain interested.

Again since you seemed to skip over my post... BoK applies shuffle regardless if it is parried. And again, we can use math to estimate the chi generation of expertise and haste and we find haste is superior (by looking at overall energy regen and factoring in abilities which miss. It's a rough estimate, but it is an estimate). Expertise hardcapping helps your raid healing and your consistency, but it isn't going to provide as much pure mitigation as haste or crit, so most people say expertise hardcapping is not necessary.

[Deleted]

I know that BoK still applies shuffle, it's nice but not like Death Strike which can't even be parried.

Parry isn't just Chi generation, it effects all your attacks. Same as hit.
If Chi gen is the only argument to not go for expertise then why even bother with hit, it nets the exact same Chi.

[The Madgod]

Because we as tanks strive for mitigation over DPS and raid healing.

In that context, only chi generation and shuffle application really matter. Everything else is icing on the cake. Some people like a lot of icing on their cake, but having a cake primarily consisting of icing makes it a pretty shitty cake.

[Biggety]

That 'signing your post with your name' thing is kinda pointless. We see your name on the left, you're just wasting your time by signing your name. Pet peeve of mine, I fully admit.

My personal reason for going for 7.5% exp is simple: my guild requires me to offspec as Windwalker in raids on occasion, so I'd rather have 1 gear set that works well for both specs, rather than have to get another gear set for DPS. I'd imagine this reason is shared with a few other Brewmasters at least: it's convenience, essentially.

Pretty much this.

Keg smash misses suck, but the likelihood of losing shuffle due to a series of parries at 7.5% expertise is pretty remote. At worst, you will have a bad string at the beginning of a fight, but boss damage tends not to be super front-loaded entirely because active mitigation is such a big part of tanking now. If you are off-tanking at all, shuffle uptime becomes a non-issue at 7.5% expertise because you can dps behind the boss in most fights and negate parry entirely for that portion.

[gynshon]

Thanks for confirming that logs don't help in this discussion and for the rest that has nothing to do with my question or the discussion.

If you look at the top 25 brewmasters in the world (easy to query on wowprogress) you'll see at least 5 different builds. There is no straight forward way to build a brewmaster, it isn't like blood DK's or warriors where everyone is going for the exact same stats and you don't even have to think about it.

I have 4 trinkets, a 4 set and 2 weapons that I swap around depending on fights, and I added stamina through gems and enchants because I don't feel comfortable sitting on a 400-440 k HP on some fights. But again I am not asking anyone's advice on my gear or performance, my only question was:

Why is everyone so against hard capping expertise.

The WW off spec was a good answer and I'm just going to leave it at that. I doubt expertise can be compared to haste mathematically, if it is I remain interested.

The reason why is people are lazy. People look at Riggimonk who openly admits he doesn't theorycraft on his monk. He went full Mastery across the board for specific fights and only brought the monk in for those fights initially during progression and he expects his healers to do the work for him. He takes a TON of damage and he doesn't purify that often. He is also well below Hit/expertise softcaps as everything goes into Mastery.

His DPS is horrible but he can get away with it because he expects his guild to carry that load. Low Elusive brew uptimes, low guard uptimes, even loses Shuffle a lot. Cannot do that in a 10 man environment. You need to do a decent amount of dps, but also mitigate what you can.

There are only a few fights this tier where Stamina is needed or warranted. If you have bad healers, then by all means stack stamina or find a new guild. Or better yet, educate your healers. But to gem stamina, is pointless. Did I do it once? Yes. To prove a point to my healer team that Sta stacking was a bad idea and proved it in successive weeks back to back with full sta, versus correct stats, and the correct won out by a huge margin.