Dumbing Down Rogues

[Deleted]

Next thing to discuss is why they are not revising the same cleave issue on other classes like DK, warrior and mage, but that is a discussion not meant for the rogue forum.

Because DK's literally have no cleave. Their "cleave" is an AoE ability which is hardwired into their standard rotation, giving them free AoE damage at no dps cost - more targets simply means more damage for them. This also means their "cleave" output will be somewhat low, while their AoE output will is immense. It's not exactly overpowered(it was stupidly overpowered when Howling Blast did its full damage to all targets hit - that was changed to half damage to all targets apart from the primary target though).

The Warrior cleave doesn't seem overpowered at all. I've yet to see Warriors pull Combat-like numbers.

What cleave do Mages have that needs fixing? I'm pretty sure Combustion can't be spread to more than 3 targets now, which is the only "cleave-ish" ability Fire has. Is there something I'm unaware of?

[D3athsting]

What cleave do Mages have that needs fixing? I'm pretty sure Combustion can't be spread to more than 3 targets now, which is the only "cleave-ish" ability Fire has. Is there something I'm unaware of?

Glyphed Ice lance strikes a secondary target for 40% dmg, with frozen orb and pet's freeze is a great combo for cleave

[Kael]

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/5...e/?s=521&e=682

Frost cleave is VERY respectable. I'll grant that's a short LFR with a partially heroic geared mage blah blah but he DOES peak at 477k DPS, which is... intimidating. I'll grant his total should be a bit lower, accounting for nether tempest v. 3 targets instead of 2, but yes, mage cleave is good.

[Coldkil]

The work on BF is good. Just the rework we need is something on the scale Warlocks have got for Pandaria.

The good part is that we can (hope to) expect something really cool on the line; the bad part is tat unil that date, more and more bandaid fixes (although for 5.2 we got some rework on talents, which isn't actally a bandaid - they're seeing how the "rogue affair" is critical).

[Deleted]

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/5...e/?s=521&e=682

Frost cleave is VERY respectable. I'll grant that's a short LFR with a partially heroic geared mage blah blah but he DOES peak at 477k DPS, which is... intimidating. I'll grant his total should be a bit lower, accounting for nether tempest v. 3 targets instead of 2, but yes, mage cleave is good.

Oh, that's rather interesting actually. Glad to see Frost become viable and actually have a niche.

[D3athsting]

Frost is very viable idd, good burst, good aoe (aoe burst too), great cleave, good at root/snare...

[Coldkil]

I'd like to hear a mage about this, if their situation is similar to ours.

But given the fact every spec has a perculiar and completely different rotation, i don't think they feel bad about their class.

[Wow]

not exactly overpowered(it was stupidly overpowered when Howling Blast did its full damage to all targets hit - that was changed to half damage to all targets apart from the primary target though).

This was hotfixed buffed in 5.0 to 80% to secondary targets.

[shadowboy]

Because DK's literally have no cleave. Their "cleave" is an AoE ability which is hardwired into their standard rotation, giving them free AoE damage at no dps cost - more targets simply means more damage for them. This also means their "cleave" output will be somewhat low, while their AoE output will is immense. It's not exactly overpowered(it was stupidly overpowered when Howling Blast did its full damage to all targets hit - that was changed to half damage to all targets apart from the primary target though).

The Warrior cleave doesn't seem overpowered at all. I've yet to see Warriors pull Combat-like numbers.

What cleave do Mages have that needs fixing? I'm pretty sure Combustion can't be spread to more than 3 targets now, which is the only "cleave-ish" ability Fire has. Is there something I'm unaware of?

Arcane barrage for arcane mages is also a cleave. Living bomb is kinda-sorta cleavish, but not restricted to fire mages.

[Anjerith]

Please whine about Rogues being dumbed down prior to the removal of poisons and poison brewing. Oh and brewing Tea to keep our energy up. Thanks.

[Avengerx]

Please whine about Rogues being dumbed down prior to the removal of poisons and poison brewing. Oh and brewing Tea to keep our energy up. Thanks.

I dunno, I found poison brewing to be a tedious and slow mechanic, not to mention it clogged inventory space. Now something similar to Thistle Tea would be awesome but monks got it instead of us

[Coldkil]

Please whine about Rogues being dumbed down prior to the removal of poisons and poison brewing. Oh and brewing Tea to keep our energy up. Thanks.

Poison brewing was something totally fit into the class concept but it was actually an additional profession you had to level up to be effective, while other classes like shamans had their weapon enhancements for free.

Also, multiple tier of poisons were useless, since only the last one was used.

Also Thistle Tea was a good buff but using that even at full power now instead of an agility potion is simply retarded.

[shadowboy]

Poison brewing was something totally fit into the class concept but it was actually an additional profession you had to level up to be effective, while other classes like shamans had their weapon enhancements for free.

Also, multiple tier of poisons were useless, since only the last one was used.

Also Thistle Tea was a good buff but using that even at full power now instead of an agility potion is simply retarded.

Thistle tea AND agility potion can both be used. They don't share a CD. Thistle Tea shares its cd with lock cookie, not potions. The problem is that thistle tea gives you no energy at 90.

[Coldkil]

Thistle tea AND agility potion can both be used. They don't share a CD. Thistle Tea shares its cd with lock cookie, not potions. The problem is that thistle tea gives you no energy at 90.

My bad - i was sure that it shared a cd with potions. Anyway i'd prefer that extra heal intead of some energy once or twice in a fight.

[Gentile911]

GC's Response: Maybe Slice and Dice should only be one spec?

Am I the only one who has a problem with this? Rogues already do not have to manage many cooldowns, unlike a Hunter. Dumbing down their main rotation is something I do not like.

I GET IT, Slice and Dice is not a fun ability to use. Generally, I'll agree. It's extra maintenance. But my problem is they'll just dumb it down for 2 out of 3 specs and not give anything back. Blizzard has been extremely reluctant to give Rogues any new toys this expansion (PvP buffs are irrelevant, talking about PvE).

It would be great if they could reduce it to something like only keeping up Rupture and then more on-demand damaging abilities, but how realistic is that? Blizzard doesn't seem like it would do that at all, mid-expansion.

I dislike it too. I sort of wish they would make rogues use their attack buttons more and have less passive damage. It would be great if they reduced the damage of backstab and ambush for example, but also reduce the energy cost so we can spam them more and perhaps give us other means of attacks too. I think rogues just need some new abilities and not editing of old ones.

[Coldkil]

I dislike it too. I sort of wish they would make rogues use their attack buttons more and have less passive damage. It would be great if they reduced the damage of backstab and ambush for example, but also reduce the energy cost so we can spam them more and perhaps give us other means of attacks too. I think rogues just need some new abilities and not editing of old ones.

That's the point in making SnD restricted to one spec if not scrapping it entirely.

The idea is not to "take out SnD, buff the rest to compensate" but instead to "make SnD interesting, fill blank space with more abilities". SnD is a great concept but i see i good for combat, being the spec bases on flury of attacks and weapons.

Sublety and Assassination have no need for faster attacks (we use daggers already), but instead they need some more dedicated abilities.

After people brought out the Mage class, i read a little about them - rotation are not that different, the fact you need to keep up some timers and watch at procs/cds (which is beasically what every player does actually) is "hidden" by the amount of spells they use, and every spec feels different.