Crying about PVP realms ''Blue'' response

[S2omegaS2]

How about they make it so you can't raid at all on pvp servers...because I mean...hey they are pvp servers, and then all the "people that belong to pve servers" can transfer and then the pvp servers will have a lot less people lvling of them...and all the lvl 90's can actually then fight each other!

Oh wait...thats not what the people that support wpvp want?

and the only people refusing to read in this topic are the people refusing to listen to read other ideas beastmaster.

It really is a stupid fight...if you are a true competator, you would agree with lola to some extent that true pvp people measure their skills by fighting other people. and then the sad losers go bully low lvls. That is all he is trying to prevent. If they used his idea, there would still be pvp, people could lvl.

[Pann]

Ah yes, because everyone in a forum posts their opinion on a toon that coincides with that opinion. News flash. I don't PvP on my PvE cause PvP on PvE is like old people f***ing. I keep an undead rogue on a PvP realm just to let out my frustrations I will gank, I will camp, I will kill auctioneers (before they got buffed). I rolled on a PvP world cause it sounded like just the kind of playground I wanted to be on. In fact, I tried to model my gear and my movements after an Orc Rogue that EVERYONE hated about 5 years ago You might remember Angwe. I was not him, but man did I want to be him. The sweet tears of angry and frustrated players simply fueled my laughter.

So, I keep my PvP on one world and my PvE on another. Nice part about having two accounts is I can gank on one screen while farming on the other. Just the way Blizz intended it.

I like 1v1, 1v5, H v L, Ally v Horde... PvP is PvP in ANY form. I got ganked a lot leveling over the years and I find ganking others to give them the same level of frustration I had leveling. It's called paying your dues on a PvP realm.

I'm not going to go into examining your character although I do find it a bit strange that despite your apparent love for PVP you have very little achievements to back this up. All my characters even those on a trial account I opened have all the achievements that my other characters have gained.

Blizz makes a game, they make policies for that game, and they allow the policies to guide the players. PvP = Anything goes. So we do it

Blizzard are free to make whatever change they like. They, also, have to face the consequences if the playerbase do not like those changes.

Point is, it did exist. It even got SO bad that Blizz took away Honor points for ganking. They later reversed that cause they knew what was good for them. They re-read their policy and figured out that we were just playing by the rules.

I only joined at the beginning of TBC so was not around during Vanilla, but didn't dishonourable kills relate to NPCs marked as civilians?

The game launched in late 2004, and has been running for just over 8 years. Learning something 2 years BEFORE launch proves you are just yanking statistics out of your ass.

My point was about CCP the company behind Eve. I suggest that you read what people are writing before accusing others of yanking things out of their arses.

[Endus]

Nobody likes being bullied.

See, you can't honestly compare it to bullying, since everyone on a PvP server consented to that environment. The consented, specifically, to everything that you're labelling as "bullying", since that behaviour is the entire and sole purpose for the different rule set.

It's like if you were trying to pick a hobby, and your choices were "basketball", or "no-holds-barred fight club". If you pick "fight club", you don't get to complain about getting punched in the face all the time. If you didn't want the face-punching, you should have picked basketball.

There's no "bullying" going on. Bullying implies that it's being forced on someone who doesn't want it. Everyone on a PvP server has stated they want to be treated that way, and it's their free choice to play on that realm type, a choice they can change at any time.

Everything we say is personal opinion. It just happens that Endus and I share the same view and opinion as Blizzard Entertainment as it pertains to WoW World PvP.

Besides which, we're both perfectly open to other people having different opinions, and have been consistently pointing out that there's a whole second server type specifically to address this variety of preferences among the player base.

We're not the ones saying "everyone totally agrees with me and if you don't you're immoral and a bully and should feel bad".

[Deleted]

The lie is when you attach a moral stance to the above behaviour. Particularly when everyone getting ganked there has consented to that kind of activity.

Because of lack of alternatives.

Sure, I may gnash my teeth when it happens, but if it didn't happen occasionally, I would enjoy the game significantly less.

What is there to enjoy about the game when you get ganked? Isn't it more fun if you can meet a player who is of your caliber who you can attack without consent, and who can attack you, knowing that you both have a chance to win?

So your claim that "nobody likes it" is false.

You didn't prove that, maybe you are just a special snowflake. The rationale of enjoying being ganked goes completely beyond me. I mean if you enjoy engaging PvP combat, that'd be possible on my realm type.

Fundamentally untrue at its core.

Strong words, no proof.

You can't seriously expect me to agree that if you tick the box saying "yes, I consent to being ganked by anyone of any level at almost any time, I consent to being corpse camped, I consent to whatever dishonorable activities the enemy may resort to", that you can't be held responsible for the consequences of that consent.

When I leveled up on my PvP server (which was lets see I have every class at least at level 80 so that's quite some experience at lvling) I hardly ever had problems on my high pop server. Right now it is a nightmare. Of the people I know in WoW there's various others who agree ganking is a problem while they play on a PvP server. There certainly would be a group who'd interested in my realm type.

I'm starting to think there's another reason you wouldn't like my realm type. Maybe because nobody would level on your realm, so you wouldn't be able to gank them? Heck I must admit I don't know why you wouldn't be alright with my realm type. How could it possibly hurt your gameplay other than that?

If you don't like PvP servers, don't play on 'em.

Problem is, PvE servers are the other extreme. I explained that in detail to the other fellow.

That doesn't mean you need to claim that those who DO like them are "less advanced" or "immoral" or "bullies".

Indeed I call people who gank and attack low levels bullies, I find the behavior indeed immoral. Less advanced I can't remember I used that term. The other 2 terms are much better.

I've also gone through lengths to explain you the psychology behind bullying and why there's a difference between ganking NPCs and players (the bully wants an external, human response verifying his/her existence, similar to trolling). You neglected it completely, and are unable to see the difference.

And that's fine. Play on PvE servers. Problem solved.[COLOR="red"]

Not the same as my suggestion which you keep dismissing but not addressing.

It's not "better". It's what you'd prefer. There's a big difference, and you've failed to provide any objective reasons why the current PvP servers are flawed, or why your new system would be objectively better.

I provided numerous arguments why my system is better, on multiple occasions.

The arguments I get is:

*) But its always been like this. Fallacy (old != better).
*) You got 2 choice PvP and PvE. Fallacy (there are more than 2 choices possible if Blizzard would implement; the lack of the choice does not justify the other 2 choices).
*) Nobody likes your proposal. Fallacy (untrue, I see support for it both in theory as outlined that people do not like being ganked while do like competitive world PvP, and also a kind of world PvP).

[S2omegaS2]

See, you can't honestly compare it to bullying, since everyone on a PvP server consented to that environment. The consented, specifically, to everything that you're labelling as "bullying", since that behaviour is the entire and sole purpose for the different rule set.

It's like if you were trying to pick a hobby, and your choices were "basketball", or "no-holds-barred fight club". If you pick "fight club", you don't get to complain about getting punched in the face all the time. If you didn't want the face-punching, you should have picked basketball.

There's no "bullying" going on. Bullying implies that it's being forced on someone who doesn't want it. Everyone on a PvP server has stated they want to be treated that way, and it's their free choice to play on that realm type, a choice they can change at any time.



Besides which, we're both perfectly open to other people having different opinions, and have been consistently pointing out that there's a whole second server type specifically to address this variety of preferences among the player base.

We're not the ones saying "everyone totally agrees with me and if you don't you're immoral and a bully and should feel bad".

really i don't see how it is not bullying. You get absolutely nothing out of killing a low lvl character. The only things you get are the satisfaction that you killed somone (even if it took 1 button) and the i guess evil fealing that you ruined someones day that some people get. this is why people say gankers are either bullys or somone that isn't good at pvp so they do it as 'revenge'.

I mean if there is any other reason to so get easy kills without trying please tell me. I would like to know.

[Endus]

What is there to enjoy about the game when you get ganked? Isn't it more fun if you can meet a player who is of your caliber who you can attack without consent, and who can attack you, knowing that you both have a chance to win?

Nope. Different experiences. It's like when I play other games, and there's a boss you can't fight, but you have to run away from and try and not-die. Different challenge entirely than an even "fair" fight.

That's the sum of the entire debate. People like it, you don't understand why and refuse to accept that your preferences are yours alone.

I'm starting to think there's another reason you wouldn't like my realm type. Maybe because nobody would level on your realm, so you wouldn't be able to gank them? Heck I must admit I don't know why you wouldn't be alright with my realm type. How could it possibly hurt your gameplay other than that?

Because I like the threat of being ganked. You're also overestimating the demand for your server type. WoW's already done a similar kind of thing; when twinking was a big deal in low-level BGs, Blizzard added experience to BG gameplay, and allowed you to turn that off IF you accepted a separate queue for twink-only battlegrounds.

And that failed. Spectacularly. There was not enough people to make that environment work, even cross-server. They didn't want an even fight.

I've also gone through lengths to explain you the psychology behind bullying and why there's a difference between ganking NPCs and players (the bully wants an external, human response verifying his/her existence, similar to trolling). You neglected it completely, and are unable to see the difference.

I fully agree that the psychology of the ganker is similar to that of a bully.

The difference is that there's no such thing as an innocent victim on a PvP server. Just targets. Everyone there expressly consented to being ganked and camped. That's the purpose of the server type.

And it's hard to feel moral outrage at a bully when there's no real victim. Even those who didn't know what they were getting into are free to turn around and walk away and never have to experience that again. The issue with bullying is victimization, and that doesn't exist on PvP servers.

[S2omegaS2]

Nope. Different experiences. It's like when I play other games, and there's a boss you can't fight, but you have to run away from and try and not-die. Different challenge entirely than an even "fair" fight.

That's the sum of the entire debate. People like it, you don't understand why and refuse to accept that your preferences are yours alone.



Because I like the threat of being ganked. You're also overestimating the demand for your server type. WoW's already done a similar kind of thing; when twinking was a big deal in low-level BGs, Blizzard added experience to BG gameplay, and allowed you to turn that off IF you accepted a separate queue for twink-only battlegrounds.

And that failed. Spectacularly. There was not enough people to make that environment work, even cross-server. They didn't want an even fight.



I fully agree that the psychology of the ganker is similar to that of a bully.

The difference is that there's no such thing as an innocent victim on a PvP server. Just targets. Everyone there expressly consented to being ganked and camped. That's the purpose of the server type.

And it's hard to feel moral outrage at a bully when there's no real victim. Even those who didn't know what they were getting into are free to turn around and walk away and never have to experience that again. The issue with bullying is victimization, and that doesn't exist on PvP servers.

I could be wrong (tell me if I am) but didn't the 'his style experiment' with the twinks w/o exp fail because the twinks didn't want to face other twinks? I thought people were ok with the experience but the twinks were crying because they couldn't dominate anymore...and nobody queued for the twinks only then. If this is the case, it is exactly what he is talking about.

and your last point is false...while it is a rarer case, ive actually been victimized in wow before (lol its true...someone was camping me and let everyone else lvl around me but would sit on my corpse and wave at me on my flying mount waiting to kill me and nobody else lol)

[FalinMor]

Lolalola, you really need to learn the difference between facts and subjective opinions.

No, not everyone hates being ganked. Just because YOU hate being ganked doesn't mean everyone does. I enjoy being ganked. I love the adrenaline rush, and the puzzle that it provides me. How do I escape? How do I get revenge? This is extremely fun for me, and for others.

You keep saying your idea for "like level" PvP realms is "better". No, it's not. It's better for YOU. That's fine. The technical hurdles to make it happen are pretty huge and might not be worth the effort, but if such a server ruleset existed, that'd be completely fine with me. I just wouldn't play on it, because I wouldn't find it as fun as the current PvP server ruleset. It wouldn't be "better" for me, and for a lot of other people I know.

So yes, your statement that "nobody likes to be ganked" is, in fact, fundamentally untrue at its core. Your statement that your idea for like-level PvP is "better" is nothing more than an opinion, and not one universally shared. As I said, I wouldn't object to such servers existing if Blizzard could somehow overcome all the technical hurdles for doing so... but I honestly wouldn't hold my breath if I were you. What you outlined as a TON of challenges involved, and it's probably not worth the investment to them.

[Deleted]

Nope. Different experiences. It's like when I play other games, and there's a boss you can't fight, but you have to run away from and try and not-die. Different challenge entirely than an even "fair" fight.

Boss fights are scripted, and world PvP isn't. There's also not much running away from a ganker. I mean he one shots you and knows you'll respawn. So you don't get to decide you evade the level 90 (except by logging off). If you take Diablo 3 for example, at some point you know where all the yellow and blue are and because of the lack of RNG in map creation the immersion is gone. What remains if their abilities and if they're there.

That's the sum of the entire debate. People like it, you don't understand why and refuse to accept that your preferences are yours alone.

What makes you believe it is only me who has this preference? You keep saying that, I see nothing which supports this. My suggestion isn't something I copied elsewhere and haven't widely shared or got feedback on, so I can't really say nobody supports it. In theory though the people who do not enjoy the ganking (but for whom a PvE realm isn't an option either) could enjoy it.

I remember in SWTOR that I was able to grow up my character and was having hard time (no gear, no skill, far less abilities) but as I played more my skill increases, my abilities increased, and my gear increased. I was still lower level (but effectively 49) which meant once my skill and abilities got up I was able to pull my weight. I never met anyone who disagreed with the system. It had some flaws (twinks, for example) but you could deal with them. In start, even level 50 were in this group, but their gear scaling proved too high so it was just "who has the most 50s". They made the 50s queue together, more competitive for them and for us. Its essentially similar to creating brackets like in BGs.

Because I like the threat of being ganked.

Why would you like the threat of being ganked? What is there gameplay wise for you to gain from being ganked? You lose time not playing the game, not leveling. It isn't a fair fight (you got no chance). Its like being AFK in a BG. You're in both cases completely useless. Except in the latter you gain from it, at the expense of your teammates.

At least you finally admit my proposal is different from the PvE realm. You just think nobody would actually want it. Well I don't see how I can prove how other people want it. I have argued a case for those who dislike bullying, and for those who like competitive world PvP.

WoW's already done a similar kind of thing; when twinking was a big deal in low-level BGs, Blizzard added experience to BG gameplay, and allowed you to turn that off IF you accepted a separate queue for twink-only battlegrounds.

Because it is easier to win from undergeared players. Players pick the path of least resistance.

Right now, the PvP BGs are very much fair in the brackets, level-wise. They're even becoming more fair because of the level scaling implemented on PTR today.

See, you can't honestly compare it to bullying, since everyone on a PvP server consented to that environment. The consented, specifically, to everything that you're labelling as "bullying", since that behaviour is the entire and sole purpose for the different rule set.

It's like if you were trying to pick a hobby, and your choices were "basketball", or "no-holds-barred fight club". If you pick "fight club", you don't get to complain about getting punched in the face all the time. If you didn't want the face-punching, you should have picked basketball.

Your honor, how about we add a third sport to the competition.

There's no "bullying" going on. Bullying implies that it's being forced on someone who doesn't want it. Everyone on a PvP server has stated they want to be treated that way, and it's their free choice to play on that realm type, a choice they can change at any time.

I still see it as bullying. By your logic, being born on this planet put you open to certain risks and bullying is legal by law (on say, high school, police don't come to pick up a bully). So you gotta suck it up (and then if the bully goes insane and uses a gun to shoot around him, it is suddenly video games to blame, yawn). The fact it is possible doesn't make it right, just because it happens doesn't make it right. I think there's a market for your type of realm, and the outcry about world PvP, high/low level, and CRZ strongly suggests the alternative PvE realm isn't viable for people. Because if that'd be the case people would simply switch to that and call it a night. We haven't even tested out my type so we cannot know for sure if it'd be successful.

Yes I understand there is apparently people who enjoy being ganked. It goes completely beyond me how this can create an adrenaline rush for you. Competitive PvP, sure, I can totally imagine that. I like that. (I don't like it when I am pwning someone and he doesn't fight back because there's no competition there; what goes up must go down.) That's a completely normal response I think.

But lets say it is the metagame of hide and seek, logging your main to get him back (if you got a main, if its pvp geared, if its on same CRZ, if ganker doesn't suddenly run away, if blabla). OK, well that is something I don't want to play world PvP wise. I want to play the character of my choice, on my time, but indeed with the option of world PvP (heck I even would want more randomness in leveling ragarding PvE mobs but OK).

As for this being difficult to implement. I don't think so. I think it'd be easy to implement. To start, there'd be 2 CRZ. One for level 90, one for those below 90. This technology is there, right now. This is already a good start because overal the people who gank are max level. Furthermore you can merge more CRZ together which increases activity between low levels and max levels. The load on servers does not increase so you can use the same clusters just would need a bit of fiddling with what runs what. Furthermore you need a relocation once the person dings 90 in the zone. And that's it really. It'd solve other problems too. Ever been making a group to kill a rare and this level 90 just poof from sky (even your faction) and bwam kills it, facerolling, while you were waiting for someone to come to you on their ground mount? Those people would be phased, too. Same with herbs and ore. What other problems would there be? A high plus a low level in same group? Moved to high level's CRZ.

[Henako]

These discussions only show how many demented people are in this game. And yes, if you gank people for the sole reason of annoying them, you are completely fucked up in the head. An most likely a virgin with a small dick, with a pizza face.

No.

Max level means nothing. For example I was killed yesterday in about 3 seconds. He had level 490+ gear, I have about 450. Great man. Fortunately these great warriors (generally speaking, actually he was a hunter) are very rare. I've done about 3 hours of dailies yesterday and only that psycho attacked me. That's on a horde packed server where I rarely see some green. That's why I say world PvP is shit, because everyone is avoiding it, apart for the deranged ones that just want to make others feel miserable.

I'm not sure what your point is. Is it that you wish you'd rolled on a PvE server, or that you think nobody enjoys World PvP because of your experience with dailies?

[BeastmasterGuardian]

Do people get ganked on PvP? - Yes
Do high levels one shot low levels? - Yes
Are contested territories dangerous on PvP realms? - Yes
Will bodies get camped? - Yes
Will fights break out? - Yes
Are no holds barred on PvP realms? - Yes

Are people gonna be offended? - Yes
Are feelings going to get hurt? - Yes
Will it feel like all morals are gone? - Yes

Is this the way it has always been and will always be according to Blizzard? - Y E S

I'm done with this cat fight. You skirts can piss and moan all day and all night til you are blue in the face. We already admitted we are gankers, and bullies, and jerks, and it has been on like Donkey Kong since Blizz removed Dishonorable Kills. You got an issue with their servers? Take it up with them. This is a fan site, and we are fans of PvP. So, grow a pair or move to PvE.

I'm out!

/highfive Endus

[Deleted]

The description of something failing is the opposite of "it worked reasonably well". If it had worked, everyone would be rolling toons on SWTOR and just PvPing there.

If X with trait A fails.
You have not proven it is due to A.

Correlation != causation.

My point here was that it isn't a new phenomenon. And, from what I gathered it was a rather praised feature in SWTOR.

Nah, I sometimes use bold capital letters to help people, who refuse to read, actually see my message. There is no middle ground needed. That is your opinion not Blizzard's game. They made PvP, PvE, RP (PvE), and RP (PvP). If there had been a need for a 5th "Level V Level" realm, they would have made one after 8 years.

New features which would've made sense 8 (or less) years ago are being added every major patch. Transmog, to name an example. It isn't too late for Blizzard to add this feature. It took WotC many years to add Revised, Restricted, and Extended types.

Not Anymore. Operation Shield Wall, The Northrend dailies (all 3 sections in Grizzly hills), Hellfire Penn / Terrokar capture quest dailies, and more invite World PvP into a Pve realm and you don't see a dozen threads a day asking them to remove the PvP objective status from the PvE realms.

Yes, by consent only (by doing that specific part). I'm talking about the leveling experience. All these areas are haunted by ghosts now or haunted by level 90s; not low leveling characters.

So you want a Level versus Level server and not a Player vs Player server. Got it. Will never happen. Blizz likes the imbalance of PvP and have said so themselves.

The imbalance would still exist on other layers. Like 2 level 55 versus 1. Or gear differences. Or class differences. Or PvE combat meddling in. Or skill differences.

So you intend to phase 9 different levels into 20+ different possible copies of zones.

We could start the experiment with 2 brackets one being 90 and one being less than 90. We could also make the difference "those who are under" and "those who are above" the intended level. I'd be very interested testing both of those out.

So you want a Level versus Level server and not a Player vs Player server. Got it. Again. Not gonna happen, they would have done it already and will take way too many resources to maintain considering the number of PvP realms.

We can call it l2l if you want, I don't mind. I don't care if it is going to happen or not. I mean, I want it to happen, but whether it is likely or not to happen doesn't mean I don't want to discuss it. A lot on the boards here is unlikely to happen, as well as in the world etc. Doesn't make it valid, nor invalid.

So no dungeons for leveling. Yeah, that will get the player base on board. 1/2 of them grind dungeons as it is.

You know there's good reason to grind dungeons when there's massive ganking, right? They'd have the option to do dungeons. It'd be less popular though.

So, no other players in your MMO except the ones you could beat in a fight and have cloaked 90s taking your resources as you wonder why that node just despawned. Again... not gonna happen.

No, it wouldn't despawn (apart from the shared resource system in GW2 being much better from a social POV), it'd be phased. In phasing you are in a completely different instance and if there's a node for you in your phase there isn't necessarily one for me.

Multiphasing for convenience on a realm that anything goes is a waste of money and resources.

Bollocks, we got CRZ as it is, and it is very easy to start a new realm these days. Keyword being VM.

Yeah, cause you're Rebel Without A Clue Crusade would upset more than just one or two people. The couple hundred people who would get saved would be the PRIME TARGETS of players who like their World PvP the way it is. They would roll a toon in every bracket, twink it, and completely RUIN your paradise. I would do it just to see your jaw drop

You wouldn't be able to beat me in a fair fight of same level

[Pann]

Do people get ganked on PvP? - Yes
Do high levels one shot low levels? - Yes
Are contested territories dangerous on PvP realms? - Yes
Will bodies get camped? - Yes
Will fights break out? - Yes
Are no holds barred on PvP realms? - Yes

Are people gonna be offended? - Yes
Are feelings going to get hurt? - Yes
Will it feel like all morals are gone? - Yes

Is this the way it has always been and will always be according to Blizzard? - Y E S

I'm done with this cat fight. You skirts can piss and moan all day and all night til you are blue in the face. We already admitted we are gankers, and bullies, and jerks, and it has been on like Donkey Kong since Blizz removed Dishonorable Kills. You got an issue with their servers? Take it up with them. This is a fan site, and we are fans of PvP. So, grow a pair or move to PvE.

I'm out!

/highfive Endus

You keep mentioning dishourable kills; they had nothing to do with killing other players.

A civilian (aka civies or civs) was a type of NPC that would garner a dishonorable kill ("DK") if killed during PvP combat in the pre-2.0 honor system. The civilian status would appear in their description when the pointer was moved over them. Their names would also have a white background when targeted. The number of civilians one killed would affect one's rank.

Many complaints had been raised since their existence because it almost completely destroyed town/city raiding; one Dishonorable Kill could destroy weeks of work for high ranking players.

The civilian tag was added to the game by Blizzard in an effort to stop high level players camping quest NPCs or vendors without penalty, as this could become a major source of grief for lower level players on older servers.

[Endus]

I could be wrong (tell me if I am) but didn't the 'his style experiment' with the twinks w/o exp fail because the twinks didn't want to face other twinks? I thought people were ok with the experience but the twinks were crying because they couldn't dominate anymore...and nobody queued for the twinks only then. If this is the case, it is exactly what he is talking about.

Any my point was that it failed. Nobody ended up queueing for it, because the twinkers' entire gambit was about stomping on those without gear. I'm not arguing that gankers are noble types looking for a fair fight, I'm saying they're opportunistic bottom feeders and that's why they like PvP servers. And that without them, you won't see much activity on these "fair play PvP" servers, meaning they'll end up dead and unused, just like twink BGs did, for the same reason.

and your last point is false...while it is a rarer case, ive actually been victimized in wow before (lol its true...someone was camping me and let everyone else lvl around me but would sit on my corpse and wave at me on my flying mount waiting to kill me and nobody else lol)

You weren't victimized in that case. You joined a server that explicitly allows that. Yes, they were picking on you, but in a way you'd stated that you were willing to allow.

It's like if you join an improv club, and you're doing an "insult slam" back-and-forth. You can't call that "bullying", because it's the rules of the game you agreed to, and it's supposed to be in good fun. If you're not having fun, maybe the improv club isn't for you?

What makes you believe it is only me who has this preference? You keep saying that, I see nothing which supports this. My suggestion isn't something I copied elsewhere and haven't widely shared or got feedback on, so I can't really say nobody supports it. In theory though the people who do not enjoy the ganking (but for whom a PvE realm isn't an option either) could enjoy it.

You're the one claiming your idea would be a grand success. You have provided precisely zero evidence that it would be or that there is widespread support for your idea.

I have countered with the demonstrated fact that twink BGs crashed and failed due to lack of interest, despite being basically the same in principle as what you're proposing.

If you're going to make claims, the burden of proof is on you to support them.

Why would you like the threat of being ganked? What is there gameplay wise for you to gain from being ganked?

Why am I obligated to explain my enjoyment to you?

The only relevant point is that you've made sweeping statements that "nobody enjoys it", and those statements were false, because *I* enjoy it.

I still see it as bullying. By your logic, being born on this planet put you open to certain risks and bullying is legal by law

Only if you choose to make yet another false comparison you have deliberately and dishonestly biased from the outset.

No, my logic is that you CHOSE to be born on this planet, KNOWING that it would open you to certain risks. And you had an alternative, where you wouldn't be subject to those risks. Those two capitalized words completely change the circumstances. Being born into certain circumstances implies they were forced upon you, and nothing was forced upon you with your server choice. It was spelled out for you in the server ruleset. You chose it, knowing those consequences, so you don't get to complain about them later on.

There is no moral issue in play. Nobody is the victim. Sneaking up behind Billy and shooting him in the ass with a paintball gun at school? That's bullying. Sneaking up behind Billy while you're both playing paintball, and shooting him in the ass? That's part of the game. Conflating the two is blatantly dishonest.

---------- Post added 2013-01-17 at 03:55 PM ----------

You keep mentioning dishourable kills; they had nothing to do with killing other players.

The principle remained the same, though; people used civilians to try and "bait" enemy players into aggroing them, to force DKs on the enemy. If you applied DKs to player characters, they'd do the same thing, with lowbies; any raid on a city would end up with everyone throwing their lowbies into the mess just to give everyone on the enemy raid extra DKs, punishing them for normal gameplay. It's the root reason why the DK system was removed in the first place; gankers didn't care, and it punished more even-tempered players for engaging in normal world PvP.

[Seegtease]

I like being ganked. I like having that threat looming over me at all times. Sure, I may gnash my teeth when it happens, but if it didn't happen occasionally, I would enjoy the game significantly less.

Most people can agree that it's more fun to be attacked by someone around your level than someone impossibly more powerful. Sure, you may tolerate ganking, but I don't think ANY people prefer it.

I don't mind walking around on a PvP realm and someone my level catches me off guard and destroys me. I don't mind it because it was my carelessness and failures that allowed it to happen. I don't mind it because I know there's something I could have done about it. I was leveling a DK in Hellfire once and I see an enemy DK. I was content to ignore him, but he turns around and death grips me. I engage and smoke his ass. Satisfying.

If PvP realms were like that, I'd be playing on them all the time. The constant thrill of encountering enemies and the battle actually being decisive. I can make decisions or fail to make decisions that will results in a win or loss. It feels realistic, and it feels immersive. Somebody swooping from the sky, one shotting me, and flying away to do it again does not feel that way at all.

I like PvP, and I like the idea of PvP realms, but I think the implementation is absolutely crappy because it's so focused on the less desirable aspects of PvP (ganking) and not focused on the more desirable aspects (the thrill of random battles).

[articulate]

Blizz made PvP servers for Player versus Player action.

Exactly right. This implies far more than you currently understand, though. Players aren't merely pixels in the way that NPC's are pixels; players are, first and foremost, people. When a player/person bullies another player/person--whether in real life, or in a game, or in a social network--that choice to bully others says something about the bully and his/her personality that no terms-of-service verbiage can morally justify.

The very act of bullying is an outward expression of an inward reality. Not every environment in life allows the bully to safely express his/her need to be hurtful to others and out of self-preservation, they keep their personality disorders in check; some do, anyway.

Now, introduce a game where the impossibility of adequate moral policing is well understood by the game maker. They give players 2 choices: be totally safe except by mutual agreement, or go wide-open in the world with all the attendant risks and frustrations.

So far, I'm totally in agreement with this philosophy.

Now, introduce the variety of human personality. Yes, of course there are going to be some people who maintain their sense of decency in the characters that they play in the game. Nobody really has an cause to complain about that.

The complaints come in when other people abandon that sense of decency at the login screen. Being free to be a jerk doesn't imply that being a jerk is appropriate to the context of the game. What context is that? Well, first, it's a game. It's meant to be played, and it's meant to be fun.

Second, as you pointed out, it's a game being played by people, not pixels, or toons, or levels, etc.

So then, as people playing a game, ask yourself whether you have any morally justifiable ground upon which to defend your right to make other people miserable simply because the terms of service provide the space to make those choices? And, if you don't have any morally justifiable ground for bullying other people in the way you play the game, then why bully other people?

I can't stress enough the importance of comprehending the idea that the freedom to behave badly isn't an invitation to do so; isn't an endorsement of said behavior.

PvP isn't a bullying environment by definition, but by participation. PvP may continue, quite enjoyably to some, in a PvP realm without requiring a bullying dynamic. How many times will you ignore the simple truth that just because you can doesn't mean you should? Again, permission isn't endorsement.

For this point you have no rebuttal; no refutation. All you have is your mantra about the terms of service allowing such behavior. Why does it say that players/people should expect such dynamics? Because Blizzard actively endorses and encourages it? No, not at all. It's because they recognize that some people will refuse to police themselves and introduce this jerk-dynamic into a game that could be just as fun without the jerks.

Well, not fun for the jerks, actually, because a bully needs a victim. I'm betting that Blizzard has determined that it's profitable to provide bullies with virtual worlds where they can express their personality disorder choices without physically harming other people. And I'm betting that Blizzard has determined that there's no legal liability to them in so doing. Neither of those determinations in any way endorses or encourages such personality disordered choices; and those disordered choices certainly aren't definitional elements of PvP proper.

So when you're ready to take an honest look in the mirror at the implications of your current perspective, please do. Until then, realize that intelligent people will always see through the smoke-screen of bullies who try to present themselves as if they're just doing what's expected and allowed; that they have no moral obligation to evaluate their behavior or to police themselves on a level beyond the 8-year old mentality of doing/taking whatever one wants by whatever means is accommodated.

That probably sounds like a sarcastic slant but I assure you that it's nothing of the sort. There's a clinical edge there that's quite worthy of your time and attention if only you would give it that. There's also a clinical edge that recognizes the unliklihood that you, and others similarly oriented as you are, will give the time and attention it deserves.

Because bullies don't really care about anything except their own interests. And your interests, based on your comments in this thread, include preserving the freedom to be a bully.

When you stop pretending that you're only doing what's expected of you (Nuhremberg trials, anyone?) and/or that you're only doing what's inherent in the definition of PvP (minimization/denial, anyone?) and own the fact that you, and people like you, taint the PvP realm experience with your admitted bullying, has this topic a snowball's chance in hell at being correctly understood in an appropriate context.

Until then, it's just pathological personalities en masse criticizing other people for calling out pathological behavior (bullying) for what it is.[/QUOTE]

[Endus]

Most people can agree that it's more fun to be attacked by someone around your level than someone impossibly more powerful. Sure, you may tolerate ganking, but I don't think ANY people prefer it.

Again, I absolutely do. It's a totally different dynamic. If I want an equal "fair" fight, there's battlegrounds for that. World PvP gives me the adrenaline rush of avoiding an enemy I can't defeat face-to-face. It's much like any stealth game, where you can't get spotted or the guards shoot you. Same deal.

Do I expect everyone to feel the same way? Of course not. That's why there's two server types.

[coldbear]

Don't the chance of getting raped, don't run around on the street. Same logic. Instead, how about we grow some ethics. But we failed to do that IRL. That's why we got the law. In-game we got a lil advantage compared to IRL. We can make laws which make it impossible to have some things happen! A novel idea! How about we prevent rape from happening in-game, even on PvP server.

Today I learned that ganking someone in an online computer game is equivalent of raping someone in real life.

Or how about No, it's not?

You agreed to PVP on a PVP server. Then you got PVP'd upon. Now you're crying. Get up and leave. Stop making your situation worse by staying in an environment you don't find fun.

[Seegtease]

Again, I absolutely do. It's a totally different dynamic. If I want an equal "fair" fight, there's battlegrounds for that. World PvP gives me the adrenaline rush of avoiding an enemy I can't defeat face-to-face. It's much like any stealth game, where you can't get spotted or the guards shoot you. Same deal.

Do I expect everyone to feel the same way? Of course not. That's why there's two server types.

Battlegrounds aren't the same. Killing players is your objective, not a surprise side-task. It's the whole reason you're there. It's a controlled environment and really there's nothing immersive about it.

In most stealth games, you SHOULD remain hidden, but if you aren't, you can at least fight your way out of it, but it'll be hard. WoW provides no such option. I approve of difficult and "you're likely to lose" battles. Those are worth it for the rare moments when you DO triumph over a more powerful enemy. However, stat gaps being what they are, this is not the case in WoW. There is no getting lucky hits or playing really well, because you were dead before the battle begun. If that's the kind of PvP you like, I'm gonna have to believe that you're in the minority, not us.

[Deleted]

Today I learned that ganking someone in an online computer game is equivalent of raping someone in real life.

The point here is that just because something is possible and allowed does not mean you should do it. Rape is a great example here for it went unprosecuted for a long, long time throughout our history.

All the people that are defending camping of low lvls probably think that the halfhill farm retreat is probably the best world pvp they ever created

Anything but real pvp is good in their eyes lol

Real PvP skill abusing phasing and sitting on a hill evading guards. People with an arena rating of the previous millenium aren't able to do that!