[Ret] T15 Set Bonuses

[Riptide]

Take that Riptides.

First it's Riptide. Secondly you don't even realize my post on twitter was implying some love to AE as well. But I mean it's obvious you can't read - either that or you have difficulty understanding and implementing sound logic on a post by post basis. Such as attacking a general public rather than presenting an argument as to why it was a problem. Aside from "I WAS LOOKING FORWARD TO SUPER TVS AND FUN. YOU STUPID PEOPLE WHO KNOW NOTHING RUINED IT" I mean if we're being honest lightning bolts are more exciting than seeing the same animation.

If you're going to blame me, you can also thank me. I mean since I'm so persuasive and all. Since we now have the 2pc affect HotR, pvp power affecting our heals and better self healing. Meanwhile, you're still whining and being delusional.


Please refrain from rude posts against other users. Keep posts constructive! -Krekko

[Fhi]

First it's Riptide. Secondly you don't even realize my post on twitter was implying some love to AE as well. But I mean it's obvious you can't read - either that or you have difficulty understanding and implementing sound logic on a post by post basis. Such as attacking a general public rather than presenting an argument as to why it was a problem. Aside from "I WAS LOOKING FORWARD TO SUPER TVS AND FUN. YOU STUPID PEOPLE WHO KNOW NOTHING RUINED IT" I mean if we're being honest lightning bolts are more exciting than seeing the same animation.

If you're going to blame me, you can also thank me. I mean since I'm so persuasive and all. Since we now have the 2pc affect HotR, pvp power affecting our heals and better self healing. Meanwhile, you're still whining and being delusional.

/soothing ocean noises

I think it's great that they decided to change it with enough noise. I've been following the thread with great interest since the tier bonus was announced, so thank you to you all who pressed for changes when they didn't make sense.

[Kelesti]

"The Lightning Strike should keep pace damage wise with TV, and we heard you like Divine Storm a lot so we're giving you a reason to push it"

"BUT WHY DOESN'T IT HIT MY TV BUTTON?!?!"


....yup, Paladins.

[Reith]

"The Lightning Strike should keep pace damage wise with TV, and we heard you like Divine Storm a lot so we're giving you a reason to push it"

"BUT WHY DOESN'T IT HIT MY TV BUTTON?!?!"


....yup, Paladins.

I think I like the first version more anyway. It makes mastery better which is good and makes gearing more interesting too with the way haste and mastery will work together and trying to find the perfect balance. I'm more concerned about overall balance.

[Kelesti]

I think I like the first version more anyway. It makes mastery better which is good and makes gearing more interesting too with the way haste and mastery will work together and trying to find the perfect balance. I'm more concerned about overall balance.

Mastery, I can kinda see, to a point. But there are always tiers that can/do shuffle stat weights around for certain specs. Having one tier where mastery would shift down a little bit (just a smidge) would not make/break the spec, and it would go back up to its place in t16. This is actually closer to the norm than keeping the same weights through an entire expansion, believe it or not.

But the joys of "amg holy damage proc" is that the entirety of Divine Storm already is Holy based damage, isn't it (yay inquisition and the 2pc15). And a Lightning strike that already ignores 100% of armor because hey spell damage, it wouldn't be hard.

The first/current bonus isn't really fun. You can accurately pretend you don't even have it, and you'll never notice. TV has exactly the same priority as it did before. You're hitting everything else exactly the same as you were before. You can equip it, and literally ignore that you got a proc until you stare at recount after. Why is this treated as more fun?

[Runewrath]

Why is this treated as more fun?

Because we get big crits obviously. One big hit>2 medium hits.

[Fiddlesnarf]

Why is this treated as more fun?

Because it actually scales with everything, the DS 4pc didn't even work with its own 2pc since it was Nature damage.
Divine Storm used to be my favorite ability, until they gutted it, now I prefer TV.

[jhunt256]

The first/current bonus isn't really fun. You can accurately pretend you don't even have it, and you'll never notice. TV has exactly the same priority as it did before. You're hitting everything else exactly the same as you were before. You can equip it, and literally ignore that you got a proc until you stare at recount after. Why is this treated as more fun?

Well actually the priority would change slightly. You don't want to use a CS while the proc is up. So you would be TVing with 3hp more even with HP adders available right?

[Reith]

Well actually the priority would change slightly. You don't want to use a CS while the proc is up. So you would be TVing with 3hp more even with HP adders available right?

Well, I don't know if that would actually be worth it. Needs some theorycrafting.

[anaxie]

Well, I don't know if that would actually be worth it. Needs some theorycrafting.

rotation likely same as now just blow tv at when stuff is on cooldown and proc is up and before another CS. Exo will likely just be used on cooldown. Sitting on it could result in a larger dps loss then just firing it on reset.

You may try to link holy tvs with exo debuff most of the time if possible without overcapping HP and clipping CS.

HoW may likely still stay where it is now. Hard to say it scales and it's mastery double dips from exo debuff and TV will be less potent without procs then it is now -15% from current.

[nyc81991]

Mastery, I can kinda see, to a point. But there are always tiers that can/do shuffle stat weights around for certain specs. Having one tier where mastery would shift down a little bit (just a smidge) would not make/break the spec, and it would go back up to its place in t16. This is actually closer to the norm than keeping the same weights through an entire expansion, believe it or not.

But the joys of "amg holy damage proc" is that the entirety of Divine Storm already is Holy based damage, isn't it (yay inquisition and the 2pc15). And a Lightning strike that already ignores 100% of armor because hey spell damage, it wouldn't be hard.

The first/current bonus isn't really fun. You can accurately pretend you don't even have it, and you'll never notice. TV has exactly the same priority as it did before. You're hitting everything else exactly the same as you were before. You can equip it, and literally ignore that you got a proc until you stare at recount after. Why is this treated as more fun?

I think it will be a lot of fun. It might not change our rotation but when it procs it will make you want to hit TV even more because of how much damage it will do. When you line up the 6% more holy damage from the 2p t15 with the proc from the 4p t15 with Inquisition and Wings up, TV will hit for a crazy amount of damage.

I don't know what the new weapons will look like next tier but if they are over 22k top end damage we could be looking at 500k+ Templar's Verdict's.

[Shelly]

The main issue is that they have no idea what they're doing when it comes to PvE DPS balance. Sure they can iron out some quality of life stuff, but what does it matter when you're completely outclassed in DPS?

They have a much better eye on dps than you're giving them credit for.

The bigger problem is ret paladins don't really like where we fall on that scale in relation to the other melee DPS classes.

Everyone thinks that "Well all DPS, or at least all melee compared to other melee and ranged compared to other ranged should fall within just 3 or 4% of each other! Otherwise it's not fair!"

Life. Is. Not. Fair.

Ret at the moment is falling pretty much right where they want us to fall.

[Kelesti]

Because it actually scales with everything, the DS 4pc didn't even work with its own 2pc since it was Nature damage.
Divine Storm used to be my favorite ability, until they gutted it, now I prefer TV.

The 4pc may have been Nature damage, but Divine Storm is still 100% holy damage, which completely scales with the 2pc, Inquisition, spell debuffs, and ignores armor completely. And that counted for free damage ontop of the TV equivalent of the Lightning strike.


Your argument is invalid.

---------- Post added 2013-01-18 at 07:51 PM ----------

I think it will be a lot of fun. It might not change our rotation but when it procs it will make you want to hit TV even more because of how much damage it will do. When you line up the 6% more holy damage from the 2p t15 with the proc from the 4p t15 with Inquisition and Wings up, TV will hit for a crazy amount of damage.

I don't know what the new weapons will look like next tier but if they are over 22k top end damage we could be looking at 500k+ Templar's Verdict's.

"but when it procs it will make you want to hit TV even more"... wat. You already wanted to push this button. It is your hardest ability, that hasn't changed. So saying "But now you want to push it more" does not actually change the fact you will be pushing the same button the same way, but oh this time that yellow number's bigger.

If there was a proc that made Exorcism hit six times as hard after a Crusader's Strike, that could shift priorities. Could potentially offshoot a Templar's Verdict because bam, all that damage and you don't want to lose it. You want to change your priorities to accomodate that.

Templar's Verdict hits hard. Okay, does it hit harder? Yes. Does that change when you push the button when it hits hard? Nope. Other than the boring old bonuses of "Your X ability hits Y% harder", this one doesn't change anything about how you play. At all.

It might as well be a +holy damage flat bonus. By design, it is functionally boring.



You're comparing Recount to actual rotations. There's a reason people hated Cataclysm's Ret, because there were a lot of holes and it just wasn't interesting. You could have realistically given Ret a +40% damage and made it top output (well except mages, because fuck mages), but would it have made it more enjoyable to play? Nope.


So they offer a system here that changes the way you play to make things a little interesting via the 4pc, and an iconic ability of Paladins that hasn't had a lot of love lately, make it an awesome button to push and feel like a badass when you can pull that off. And what is the paladin's response? "QQ WHY DOESN'T IT WORK WITH TEMPLAR'S VERDICT BECAUSE I WANT TO PUSH THAT BUTTON"


....Paladins.

[nyc81991]

The 4pc may have been Nature damage, but Divine Storm is still 100% holy damage, which completely scales with the 2pc, Inquisition, spell debuffs, and ignores armor completely. And that counted for free damage ontop of the TV equivalent of the Lightning strike.


Your argument is invalid.

---------- Post added 2013-01-18 at 07:51 PM ----------


"but when it procs it will make you want to hit TV even more"... wat. You already wanted to push this button. It is your hardest ability, that hasn't changed. So saying "But now you want to push it more" does not actually change the fact you will be pushing the same button the same way, but oh this time that yellow number's bigger.

If there was a proc that made Exorcism hit six times as hard after a Crusader's Strike, that could shift priorities. Could potentially offshoot a Templar's Verdict because bam, all that damage and you don't want to lose it. You want to change your priorities to accomodate that.

Templar's Verdict hits hard. Okay, does it hit harder? Yes. Does that change when you push the button when it hits hard? Nope. Other than the boring old bonuses of "Your X ability hits Y% harder", this one doesn't change anything about how you play. At all.

It might as well be a +holy damage flat bonus. By design, it is functionally boring.



You're comparing Recount to actual rotations. There's a reason people hated Cataclysm's Ret, because there were a lot of holes and it just wasn't interesting. You could have realistically given Ret a +40% damage and made it top output (well except mages, because fuck mages), but would it have made it more enjoyable to play? Nope.


So they offer a system here that changes the way you play to make things a little interesting via the 4pc, and an iconic ability of Paladins that hasn't had a lot of love lately, make it an awesome button to push and feel like a badass when you can pull that off. And what is the paladin's response? "QQ WHY DOESN'T IT WORK WITH TEMPLAR'S VERDICT BECAUSE I WANT TO PUSH THAT BUTTON"


....Paladins.

When I say it will make you want to hit Tv more, I do not mean you are literally going to hit it more times. I'm saying it will be fun looking foward to it hitting harder. It is a straight up damage increase any way you look at it.

You might not like it personally but that isn't how everyone sees it.

Oh and Incase you didn't read what GC said, They still want to make DS something that is used in the main rotation at some point in the future. Whether it be in the form of a glyph or a new passive ability.

[Meteoric]

"but when it procs it will make you want to hit TV even more"... wat. You already wanted to push this button. It is your hardest ability, that hasn't changed. So saying "But now you want to push it more" does not actually change the fact you will be pushing the same button the same way, but oh this time that yellow number's bigger.

You're not far wrong, but there is some behavior to alter. TV5 is higher priority than everything but Inq, but TV3-4 is our lowest priority (that holy power isn't going anywhere, use the stuff with cooldowns first). With the set bonus, it may be optimal to prioritize "TV3 + 4pc proc" somewhere above CS. It does alter decision-making, although not by a lot.

...but yeah, your overall point is well-made. We paladins complained when DS stopped being useful very often, and then we complained when they tried to make it more useful again. *sigh*

[Kelesti]

When I say it will make you want to hit Tv more, I do not mean you are literally going to hit it more times. I'm saying it will be fun looking foward to it hitting harder. It is a straight up damage increase any way you look at it.

Comparing bigger number e-peens and recount and saying that this is more important than interesting mechanics as a baseline first. As I said before, if Cataclysm Ret did 40% more damage, would that make the spec despite all its flaws and inconsistencies, would that make it fun because "OMFG BIGGER NUMBERS?"

Here's a hint, the answer's on the opposite side of the spectrum from "yup".


My point is here ---->|





and your head's down here --->|

[Lumineus]

They did say that they want to find a way to get DS into the single target rotation at some point in the future so maybe we will still see something happen with that.

Right. He said a glyph or something. "Glyph of the Wrathful Storm: Your Divine Storm will deal 100% more damage, but will only hit one target."

[Reith]

They have a much better eye on dps than you're giving them credit for.

The bigger problem is ret paladins don't really like where we fall on that scale in relation to the other melee DPS classes.

Everyone thinks that "Well all DPS, or at least all melee compared to other melee and ranged compared to other ranged should fall within just 3 or 4% of each other! Otherwise it's not fair!"

Life. Is. Not. Fair.

Ret at the moment is falling pretty much right where they want us to fall.

Poor argument is poor. Not much else to say than that.

Right. He said a glyph or something. "Glyph of the Wrathful Storm: Your Divine Storm will deal 100% more damage, but will only hit one target."

I'm more inclined to think they'll add a glyph that makes it like it was in WOTLK.

[Austilias]

1st set affect appears to have the potential for yet more maintenance on top of Inquisition.

2nd set effect is frankly weird; I would like to see a glyph to the effect of Glyph of Focused Shield regarding Divine Storm. Reduced number of targets in exchange for greater DPS. The fact that it's proc-based is also pretty crappy.

[nyc81991]

Comparing bigger number e-peens and recount and saying that this is more important than interesting mechanics as a baseline first. As I said before, if Cataclysm Ret did 40% more damage, would that make the spec despite all its flaws and inconsistencies, would that make it fun because "OMFG BIGGER NUMBERS?"

Here's a hint, the answer's on the opposite side of the spectrum from "yup".


My point is here ---->|





and your head's down here --->|

I think you need to learn that everyone has different opinions and they might not always match yours. To me the set bonus is going to be more fun and interesting. To you it might not. Blizzard obviously thought that the original 4set was better so they went back to it. There is almost no reason to argue about it.

Also, For a Moderator you aren't acting very civil. Maybe I'm reading what you are trying to say wrong but saying,

My point is here ---->|





and your head's down here --->|

is totally uncalled for.