Patch 5.2 PTR Mage Changes

[Swizzle]

Swizzle, I gotta level with you. I know mods like to be devil's advocate, but my point is here-- is the game functioning properly if we have to bandaid macros into our gameplay?

Huh? No, I was sincerely curious. I had problems with my WEle too till I made those binds to FrB and Poly respectively. It still does like to get caught on things like a tard, but those macros solve many problems I see people complaining about.

[shaft4783]

I'd love to just see the elemental removed entirely.

Agreed. I don't want to play frost because of the elemental. Just always felt it was clunky.

[Imnick]

I'm not saying "it's not a problem because other people have to deal with it"
I'm saying it's not a problem at all

The "come here" and "pet attack" buttons exist so that you can keybind them, if you aren't keybinding key abilities then you probably should be!
And control of what your pet is doing is definitely a key ability.

Even unglyphed you can make it stand back from you, that's why a "stand here" button exists. Yes it will stop casting while moving, but that is what casters do, I don't see why it is surprising. It doesn't lose a lot of DPS if you position it intelligently. It's not like melee pets don't suffer from target switching either. They have to, you know, get into melee range before they can attack.
Just use some forethought and place it as you are moving, it doesn't even stop your casts.
On Garalon I'd always preplace it in the middle just before the pull and it'd sit there content and in range for the whole fight.


Yes gameplay with a pet is different than gameplay without and requires more things to focus on, but isn't that what people want?
Less spec homogenisation? Ways to demonstrate spec mastery?
Removing a pet is only going to hurt spec identity and make Frost feel more like the other two specs.
Micromanaging your pet adds depth! But I guess as that's how I feel about Rune of Power and everyone is more prepared to whine about it than figure out smart ways to use that too, I shouldn't be surprised that depth upsets people.

[DeLos]

Personally, if I had my way, I would like to see the pet actually function more like the WC3 one did. You summon it, it lasts for a while. The CD is lower then the duration though. So you could have several out at a time. Have 1 to 3 out at any given time. Give us control, but with them all tied to the same commands. But something like a 1 minute duration with a 15 CD. (Duration / CD subject to balancing.) Would solve the issue of ramp up for frost. Would give you more of the feel that he was disposable, like WC3 one was, and less of the 'pet class' feel. You wanted to keep him around for his full duration, but if he was lost it was not a huge deal.

[Akraen]

@Swizzle: Gotcha - I think I just read the intent of your post more strongly than you intended. Apologies there! Your solution does make it better, and it is something I do-- I just don't think it cures the problem at a code/dev level, and I'd like to see all pet AI improved.

@Imnick: Are you arguing just to argue? You seriously think pets are fine? You think having additional keybinds to have a pet do what he should already be doing, when it is balanced not around stopcasting but standing still (and it's low DPS at that), is intended?

Of course it doesn't lose a lot of DPS if you position it intelligently. I raid heroic content and overcome little challenges like that all the time. Dealing with the problem doesn't make it any less of a problem. You're making excuses for bad programming.

[Imnick]

Yes! I think pets are fine!
They never lose a particularly significant portion of DPS to moving even if you're bad at it, when they're positioned properly the loss is so negligible to be insignificant.
It provides 10% of a Mage's total DPS which is not an insignificant figure and making it hit all that much harder would make some of your own spells feel insignificant. One thing I definitely don't want is the BM situation where an AI unit is making up 40% of my damage, rather than my personal contribution.

AI can always be improved but I am seriously confused at your argument that it has got worse over time, I've never noticed any decrease in performance and the glyph makes it far smarter than it ever was in Cataclysm.
They should always be working on their Pet AI but it's never going to be perfect and as is there are no significant issues with it. Every class with pets face the same issues, so it's not one unique to mages, and it doesn't really particularly effect either DPS output or quality of life.

To be honest I'm wondering if you are arguing to argue, or at least complaining for the sake of complaining, even a completely autopiloted Water Elemental has decent DPS output :/

It's certainly not something that should be completely ignored by Blizzard but pet AI is always a work in progress and as it is, I find it fairly satisfactory. It's certainly not anything I'd rank as a chief issue with Mages, Frost or even with the Water Elemental!

[Sw1tch]

Also understand that the WE being 10-11% of our damage was solely intended to add more consistency to our damage. And I fully agree with Imnick, we need to keep the elemental if we want to maintain at least a semblance of spec identity. BUT, if Water Jet isn't coming I don't see much of an interesting purpose to a vanilla visual that chain casts waterbolt other then a source of consistent dps.

My opinion: Keep the Water Elemental, but Water Jet needs to come. And give us a new skin please.

[Imnick]

A pet with an interactive ability is vastly more interesting than a DoT effect on legs, that is what I find more concerning than its ability to move around the battlefield.
Glyph skins are optional but appreciated (I can't think there's a water elemental model existing in game that I'd rather have than this one, but there must be one someone else would like)

[Elegiac]

Also understand that the WE being 10-11% of our damage was solely intended to add more consistency to our damage. And I fully agree with Imnick, we need to keep the elemental if we want to maintain at least a semblance of spec identity. BUT, if Water Jet isn't coming I don't see much of an interesting purpose to a vanilla visual that chain casts waterbolt other then a source of consistent dps.

My opinion: Keep the Water Elemental, but Water Jet needs to come. And give us a new skin please.

Frost persisted for a vast period without Water Elemental as a permanent pet. Water Elemental was -never- a permanent pet prior to Wrath, not even in the Warcraft RTS days.

[Imnick]

Frost persisted for a vast period without Water Elemental as a permanent pet. Water Elemental was -never- a permanent pet prior to Wrath, not even in the Warcraft RTS days.

What a ridiculous thing to say!
Frost persisted without Fingers of Frost and Brain Freeze prior to Wrath too!
I don't think anyone would dare describe the pure Frostbolt spec as "fun", "engaging" or "unique".

[Elegiac]

What a ridiculous thing to say!
Frost persisted without Fingers of Frost and Brain Freeze prior to Wrath too!
I don't think anyone would dare describe the pure Frostbolt spec as "fun", "engaging" or "unique".

Of course it wasn't, because while the Shatter mechanic was in place, the fact that both other players' damage broke Frostbite procs or that bosses were freeze immune left that part of the gameplay exclusively for PvP. Exactly what is fun, engaging, or unique about what you described as basically a DoT on legs? At least in the form of a cooldown it requires a basic level of management. Frost's "identity" should come from its control and/or rewarding timing and precision, not from a pet. We are not warlocks.

[Imnick]

Frost's identity can't come from Control because that leads to Frost mages being benched on any fight with CC-immune adds (which is most adds, because if people can avoid killing adds they will so CC can only be a viable tactic if it is almost the only tactic, and it has to be in a way that doesn't require Mages).
Frost's identity can and does come from rewarding timing (your procs!) and precision (your pet and its management, as well as 90 talents but that is not Frost exclusive), and for being the only Mage spec with a pet!

Water Elemental as a Cooldown doesn't add an element of strategy! You push a button once every 60 seconds. How is that strategic? You are literally just summoning something at every opportunity anyway, why bother doing the summoning? What does that add other than dead time in your rotation?

Removing Freeze is a bad move on Blizzard's part and sorely needs to be addressed by either its reimplementation or an additional rotational ability for the WE. Removing the Water Elemental itself would be a staggeringly awful move.
That people can argue that mages are too homogenised and then suggest removing the permanent pet from the only mage spec with a permanent pet in the same breath is something I still really can't comprehend.

[Elegiac]

Frost's identity can't come from Control because that leads to Frost mages being benched on any fight with CC-immune adds (which is most adds, because if people can avoid killing adds they will so CC can only be a viable tactic if it is almost the only tactic, and it has to be in a way that doesn't require Mages).
Frost's identity can and does come from rewarding timing (your procs!) and precision (your pet and its management, as well as 90 talents but that is not Frost exclusive), and for being the only Mage spec with a pet!

Water Elemental as a Cooldown doesn't add an element of strategy! You push a button once every 60 seconds. How is that strategic? You are literally just summoning something at every opportunity anyway, why bother doing the summoning? What does that add other than dead time in your rotation?

Removing Freeze is a bad move on Blizzard's part and sorely needs to be addressed by either its reimplementation or an additional rotational ability for the WE. Removing the Water Elemental itself would be a staggeringly awful move.
That people can argue that mages are too homogenised and then suggest removing the permanent pet from the only mage spec with a permanent pet in the same breath is something I still really can't comprehend.

As opposed to pressing a macro once every 25 seconds to get one to two Fingers of Frost procs. Right. Such compelling gameplay. As I said, when WE was a cooldown, you had to manage the cooldown, and with the new rotation you would also have to manage Fingers of Frost from the Freeze procs (not relevant as of 5.2, naturellement)

Because there are two other classes with which permanent pets are identified, or have you forgotten that Warlocks and Hunters existed? The arguments in favor of a permanent Water Elemental were primarily "Warlocks/Hunters have a permanent pet, why can't we?" - if that is not homogenization, I do not know what is. If you believe that a DoT on legs is the only way to add intra-class variety, you're sadly lacking in creativity.

It would not be awful. Numbers can be adjusted, and considering WE is being untied from Fingers of Frost anyway there is no point to it, period. Frost's identity was never the Water Elemental as a permanent pet, period.

[Imnick]

You did not have to manage the cooldown! You literally pressed it every time it was possible to press the cooldown! That is not management!
Stop trying to pretend that this was compelling gameplay!
Having Freeze bound to not only its own cooldown but also the WE's duration would not be fun or complex, it would be frustrating and pointless.

There are other classes with permanent pets but here's the key point: They aren't Mages. That is why I said "the only Mage spec with a permanent pet", not "The only class in the game with a permanent pet".
This is about spec homogenisation not class homogenisation, and I've already told you that I would much prefer to keep it a dot with legs and also an activatable ability.

But hey! Apparently while a dot with legs is boring, an utterly identical dot with legs... with the addition of a three minute cooldown, is totally compelling gameplay!

Frost's identity has been the Elemental ever since it was anything like a viable PvE DPS spec, if you don't count the time that people played Frost purely because the mobs were immune to your other spell schools. You can dislike it as much as you want, but I'm disinclined to take the opinions of someone who thinks that pressing a button once every three minutes adds fun to a rotation particularly seriously.

[Swizzle]

Frost persisted for a vast period without Water Elemental as a permanent pet. Water Elemental was -never- a permanent pet prior to Wrath, not even in the Warcraft RTS days.

Not in PvE it didn't, and the WEle was basically the only way to get kills in PvP. Blizzard realized that having a crucial aspect of gameplay on a CD was stupid, and it ONLY lasted the duration of TBC (WEle introduced in TBC, duration removed in WotLk). So...in fact, Frost has spent more time with it NOT on CD and in better shape than your claims.

[Elegiac]

Not in PvE it didn't, and the WEle was basically the only way to get kills in PvP. Blizzard realized that having a crucial aspect of gameplay on a CD was stupid, and it ONLY lasted the duration of TBC (WEle introduced in TBC, duration removed in WotLk). So...in fact, Frost has spent more time with it NOT on CD and in better shape than your claims.

False. -Freeze- was one of the ways to get kills in PvP, not the Water Elemental. They homogenized the spec for the sake of a pet ability.

---------- Post added 2013-01-18 at 03:13 PM ----------

You did not have to manage the cooldown! You literally pressed it every time it was possible to press the cooldown! That is not management!
Stop trying to pretend that this was compelling gameplay!
Having Freeze bound to not only its own cooldown but also the WE's duration would not be fun or complex, it would be frustrating and pointless.

There are other classes with permanent pets but here's the key point: They aren't Mages. That is why I said "the only Mage spec with a permanent pet", not "The only class in the game with a permanent pet".
This is about spec homogenisation not class homogenisation, and I've already told you that I would much prefer to keep it a dot with legs and also an activatable ability.

But hey! Apparently while a dot with legs is boring, an utterly identical dot with legs... with the addition of a three minute cooldown, is totally compelling gameplay!

Frost's identity has been the Elemental ever since it was anything like a viable PvE DPS spec, if you don't count the time that people played Frost purely because the mobs were immune to your other spell schools. You can dislike it as much as you want, but I'm disinclined to take the opinions of someone who thinks that pressing a button once every three minutes adds fun to a rotation particularly seriously.

You're claiming that Freeze is compelling gameplay which is basically the same thing. Two buttons on cooldown is by definition more "management" than one.

Frost's identity was its control, the Elemental possessing a critical control ability was part of that, not the Elemental in of itself.

Please quote where I said pressing a button once every three minutes is fun. I said "at least it requires a basic level of management" under your definition of management.

[Deleted]

So how many fellow mages in here thats been doing some raid testing on the PTR are happy with the current state of mages?

[Sw1tch]

The fact of the matter is that without the Elemental frost is much less compelling (adds a visual, interactive with Water Jet/Freeze) . There's nothing more to say. You cannot argue against that, and any attempts at compelling changes will not happen over the course of patches, so talking about that point would be moot. And we are actually slightly unique from warlocks and hunters in the way that our mastery affects pet damage, and that our class doesn't have access to general pet, only one spec does.

[Imnick]

So how many fellow mages in here thats been doing some raid testing on the PTR are happy with the current state of mages?

I will be if they give the Elemental an ability back, but most people don't really like me to count because I'm pretty satisfied with Mages in general anyway.

[Elegiac]

I will be if they give the Elemental an ability back, but most people don't really like me to count because I'm pretty satisfied with Mages in general anyway.

True story.

The fact of the matter is that without the Elemental frost is much less compelling (adds a visual, interactive with Water Jet/Freeze) . There's nothing more to say. You cannot argue against that, and any attempts at compelling changes will not happen over the course of patches, so talking about that point would be moot. And we are actually slightly unique from warlocks and hunters in the way that our mastery affects pet damage, and that our class doesn't have access to general pet, only one spec does.

You mean like BM and Demonology Mastery?