Boy... this makes me really eager to stop advocating mens rights...

[Wells]

So a man should get a choice in that. You are exluding one gender. You are giving one gender direct power over another in terms of deciding their fate.

This is sexism. Its gender bias. Men should be afforded the same liberties as women.

I'm really curious why you think people in inherently different situations should have the same powers and options.

Men and women should be afforded the same liberties when they're in the same situations. Pregnant women are in a situation a man can never be in. Why should men get the same powers for a burden they'll never carry?

[starlord]

We have (had?) this crazy idea that if it wasn't logically possible for your argument to stand anymore, which through these 45+ pages it certainly didn't 30 pages ago (you won't believe that ofcourse, don't bother responding to it) you may consider the possibility of being wrong. We were the ones who were wrong there clearly.

Hence why I thought you may be a troll. It's near inconceivable to think that someone can come to the conclusions after hearing all that assuming they actually read any of it. It's deserving of an "I don't want to live on this planet anymore" meme.

im not the one who has to change the definitions of things like "rape", "rights", "liberty" and "sexism" for my arguments to hold water. but given the nature of this forum its little surprise that this thread would for the most part be a huge circlejerk (pun intended) about how victimized men are for having to take responsibility for their choices.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

I'm really curious why you think people in inherently different situations should have the same powers and options.

Men and women should be afforded the same liberties when they're in the same situations. Pregnant women are in a situation a man can never be in. Why should men get the same powers for a burden they'll never carry?

I'm not at all asking for males to have the power to demand a female to abort a baby. Males should just be allowed the same choice; to opt out of having a child if they are not economically able, or at a point in their life where they are ready for one. Just like women get. The woman is then free to make her own choice. Both genders know the risk and willingly have sex. Both sexes should have a choice. The mans choice would have bearing at all on what the woman would choose. She is still open to any option she wants. Abortion, Adoption, Keeping the child and supporting it.

im not the one who has to change the definitions of things like "rape", "rights", "liberty" and "sexism" for my arguments to hold water. but given the nature of this forum its little surprise that this thread would for the most part be a huge circlejerk (pun intended) about how victimized men are for having to take responsibility for their choices.

Now you are just plain lying and it is despicable. I have literally copy and pasted the definitions of 3 of those words, and even bolded the important parts since you can't seem to understand those words.

There is a difference between being stubborn in the face of insurmountable arguments, but its different to just plain lie to justify your own bullshit.

[Wells]

I'm not at all asking for males to have the power to demand a female to abort a baby. Males should just be allowed the same choice; to opt out of having a child if they are not economically able, or at a point in their life where they are ready for one. Just like women get.

Again, women get that option because to deny them it would deny them bodily autonomy and that is unacceptable. Men don't lose their bodily autonomy if we don't let them "abort". You're asking for powers you haven't earned.

[starlord]

Now you are just plain lying and it is despicable. I have literally copy and pasted the definitions of 3 of those words, and even bolded the important parts since you can't seem to understand those words.

There is a difference between being stubborn in the face of insurmountable arguments, but its different to just plain lie to justify your own bullshit.

"if a woman pokes holes in a mans condom, thats just plain rape"
"if a parent has to care for their child instead of abandoning it, thats violating their liberty!"
"since men cant get an abortion, they dont have the same rights as women"
"its sexism that women have a greater influence over whether or not they carry children to term than men"

all these things and more have been said in this thread.
my stubborness is in not tolerating bullshit.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

Again, women get that option because to deny them it would deny them bodily autonomy and that is unacceptable. Men don't lose their bodily autonomy if we don't let them "abort". You're asking for powers you haven't earned.

Men do lose a portion of their life, money, and well being. If I could barely afford bill/life before child support, I would need another job or more work at my first job. This = more time. Time is really all you have in life. Again, choosing to opt out would have no power over the womans body, or change her choice at all. Its not asking for special powers to make her do what men want. Its only a fair, unbiased thing to ask.

[Wells]

Men do lose a portion of their life, money, and well being. If I could barely afford bill/life before child support, I would need another job or more work at my first job. This = more time. Time is really all you have in life. Again, choosing to opt out would have no power over the womans body, or change her choice at all. Its not asking for special powers to make her do what men want. Its only a fair, unbiased thing to ask.

Your money does not fall under bodily autonomy.

You're still missing the point. Women get to abort because the fetus requires their body. That is a burden that men do not have. Why should they get the power that women get when they don't share in the burden women have?

[Austilias]

Again, women get that option because to deny them it would deny them bodily autonomy and that is unacceptable. Men don't lose their bodily autonomy if we don't let them "abort". You're asking for powers you haven't earned.

And you're positing that because men cannot control the bodies of women, they should not therefore have an opt-out if conception and pregnancy arise. Again, the point is simple; both sexes know the consequences of sex and the likelihood of what can be conceived during it. Women have several opt-out in the form of abortion, adoption as well as the other choice which is to keep the child and support it. Men however, are afforded no such luxury. True, men cannot claim autonomy of the bodily functions and sexual organs of women; but that is not sufficient reasoning to deny men an opt-out and bind their financial liberty to the choice of the woman.

Where a woman can adopt, surrender the child to adoption or keep the child, so too should men, if they, like women, have a change of heart or perhaps even from the very outset, disagree with the decision to keep the baby due to the woman in question having sabotaged contraception or taken measures to increase the likelihood of conception, unknowingly to the man, be at liberty to be free of responsibility; at which point the state, as it so often also provides financial aid for abortions, should provide aid beyond the womb for the child and the parent who would want it.

[Wells]

You people keep ignoring why women can abort.

[Austilias]

all these things and more have been said in this thread.
my stubborness is in not tolerating bullshit.

My sentiments exactly. Once more, you've done little but consistently demonstrate yourself to be the proverbial gold digger's best friend; believing women should suffer no consequences regardless of their intentions/actions surrounding the conception of the child involved, whilst maintaining that men should be bound financially to that child, regardless of the intentions/actions of the woman in question regarding its conceptions.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

"if a woman pokes holes in a mans condom, thats just plain rape"
"if a parent has to care for their child instead of abandoning it, thats violating their liberty!"
"since men cant get an abortion, they dont have the same rights as women"
"its sexism that women have a greater influence over whether or not they carry children to term than men"

all these things and more have been said in this thread.
my stubborness is in not tolerating bullshit.

No, you are likely warping what other have said to suit your own crappy agenda =\. Good try though.

civil rights
plural noun, ( often initial capital letters )
1.
rights to personal liberty established by the 13th and 14th Amendments to the U.S. constitution and certain Congressional acts, especially as applied to an individual or a minority group.
2.
the rights to full legal, social, and economic equality extended to blacks.

lib·er·ty [lib-er-tee] Show IPA
noun, plural lib·er·ties.
1.
freedom from arbitrary or despotic government or control.
2.
freedom from external or foreign rule; independence.
3.
freedom from control, interference, obligation, restriction, hampering conditions, etc.; power or right of doing, thinking, speaking, etc., according to choice.

By not giving a man the choice over his own life, you are taking away his liberty.

sex·ism [sek-siz-uh m] Show IPA
noun
1.
attitudes or behavior based on traditional stereotypes of sexual roles.
2.
discrimination or devaluation based on a person's sex, as in restricted job opportunities; especially, such discrimination directed against women.

Your whole attitude is discriminating against men. The current laws in our system reflect old archaic gender roles. They need to be updated because women are uneducated, jobless care givers anymore. They work, they learn, and our laws reflect that they are equal in our society now. Law makers should strive for equality as much as they can, and forcing a man to live with a burden when a woman does not is sexism; They share the same risk when knowingly having sex, and the same rules should apply to both.

[starlord]

My sentiments exactly. Once more, you've done little but consistently demonstrate yourself to be the proverbial gold digger's best friend; believing women should suffer no consequences regardless of their intentions/actions surrounding the conception of the child involved,

nope, ive said many times theres cases where they could be committing a form of fraud.

whilst maintaining that men should be bound financially to that child, regardless of the intentions/actions of the woman in question regarding its conceptions.

just like women are, regardless of the fathers intentions.

[Laize]

What does that have to do with what I said?

He's saying that a child coming to term is entirely the mother's choice. Unless he's entirely unaware of what sex is and how it works that isn't true.

For such a pro-choice guy you seem to be willfully ignorant of the fact that legal abortions means EVERY pregnancy that comes to term is a result of the mother permitting it. You, yourself, say the man should have no say. Therefore YES, a pregnancy come to term is entirely the choice of the mother. If the guy does not want a kid and provides adequate notice so she can make an informed decision there is no good reason to force him to finance her choice.

[Austilias]

You people keep ignoring why women can abort.

Not at all, women should be free to have full autonomy over their bodies; but it's a slippery slope to put bodily autonomy over fiscal/material autonomy. The matter however is relatively simple;

Women hold all the get-out-of-jail-free cards; Women, like men, know the consequences and likelihoods of conception during sex, yet are at liberty to employ measures such as the morning-after pill/abortion/adoption etc once the child is born. They hold all the cards over the child, and all the cards over the man involved, regardless of the motives/actions that lead to the conception.

Men however, are at the mercy of women; his financial well-being subject to what the woman decides. Should she keep the child, it doesn't matter what he wants; the woman if she wanted, might simply abort or forfeit the child, whereas the man is subject to law regardless of what he desires.

---------- Post added 2013-01-19 at 03:36 AM ----------

nope, ive said many times theres cases where they could be committing a form of fraud.

I can't recall you having stated that in these cases the father should be absolved of responsibility to the child he did not want and whose conception he had no say in, however.

just like women are, regardless of the fathers intentions.

Nope, the women have abortion and adoption at their disposal; the man has nothing.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

You people keep ignoring why women can abort.

No, I am not ignoring a thing. What I am focusing on is the WHY and the OUTCOME.

WHY- They don't want a baby.

OUTCOME- They don't have to support a baby.

If you are a man? Same intentions, but instead you just get a big middle finger. Whats WORSE, is the option of adoption DOES exist. But if the woman feels like she would like to have a baby, FUCK YOU MEN, you have to financially support her decision whether you can, can't, or don't want to.

This means a womans choice and desire supersedes a mans, which makes him a lesser to women. This is of course barring rapes or medical reasons for wanting to abort.

---------- Post added 2013-01-18 at 10:37 PM ----------

nope, ive said many times theres cases where they could be committing a form of fraud.

just like women are, regardless of the fathers intentions.

No, women aren't forced to be financially responsible.

[Wells]

For such a pro-choice guy you seem to be willfully ignorant of the fact that legal abortions means EVERY pregnancy that comes to term is a result of the mother permitting it.

Again, this is bullshit. You made decisions that if you did not make a child would not result. You're just as culpable for the situation. Whether they get an abortion is the woman's choice. Whether the child is created is the result of several decisions made by both parties with a change in any choice made resulting in no child.

Not at all, women should be free to have full autonomy over their bodies; but it's a slippery slope to put bodily autonomy over fiscal/material autonomy.

What? No its not. We do it all the time.

Women hold all the get-out-of-jail-free cards

dem bitches love abortions.

[starlord]

No, you are likely warping what other have said to suit your own crappy agenda =\. Good try though.

i really dont want to go find the exact quotes, some made by yourself (though the rape one is word for word).

By not giving a man the choice over his own life, you are taking away his liberty.

he had a choice. his liberty also ends where his childs begins. thats why we have laws about not abandoning or sbusing children.

Your whole attitude is discriminating against men. The current laws in our system reflect old archaic gender roles. They need to be updated because women are uneducated, jobless care givers anymore. They work, they learn, and our laws reflect that they are equal in our society now. Law makers should strive for equality as much as they can, and forcing a man to live with a burden when a woman does not is sexism; They share the same risk when knowingly having sex, and the same rules should apply to both.

you have yet to demonstrate how they dont apply to both. if i use my right to free speech to argue on forums and someone else uses it for writing the news it doesnt mean the law is not applying to me equally since i dont write news.

[Wells]

WHY- They don't want a baby.

Why is because they have bodily autonomy. They can abort because its their body. A man's body is not at stake. His bodily autonomy is not an issue. Why should he have the right that a woman derives from bodily autonomy?

Equal rights are for equal situations. Pregnancy is an inherently unequal position.

[Laize]

Again, this is bullshit. You made decisions that if you did not make a child would not result. You're just as culpable for the situation. Whether they get an abortion is the woman's choice. Whether the child is created is the result of several decisions made by both parties with a change in any choice made resulting in no child.

It's in no way bullshit. Every child born is a result of the mother's decision to not abort.

There are no two ways around this fact.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

i really dont want to go find the exact quotes, some made by yourself (though the rape one is word for word).
he had a choice. his liberty also ends where his childs begins. thats why we have laws about not abandoning or sbusing children.

you have yet to demonstrate how they dont apply to both. if i use my right to free speech to argue on forums and someone else uses it for writing the news it doesnt mean the law is not applying to me equally since i dont write news.

That has to be the worst hypothetical I have heard in this whole thread, and it does not make any sense to the current topic.

Again, you twisted many if not all of those "quotes" to further your own agenda. Good try.