Why does socialized medicine suck again?

[Wells]

What we do better than them has nothing to do with out we pay for care though.

[Endus]

So...how is this NOT a monopoly? We talk about how if a company gets into a single-provider system (for example, if all computers were Microsoft-based ones), then it's bad because the company can jack up prices.

We then have this healthcare monopoly and call it gold. The government can then say they choose not to cover someone's specific procedure for any reason, or that they don't care to pay the typical rates for a doctor, and the market is controlled entirely by the government. It has a potential to cause a problem for those doctors who are tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of dollars in debt when the government's determined value for medical procedures drastically lowers their earning power.

Everything you just said is totally incorrect, in just about every imaginable way.

It's not a "monopoly" because it's not a commodity. Companies jack up prices to increase profits. There's no profit to be had in a socialized health care system. They can't jack up prices to make more money, because nobody's making profit. Just salaries.

The "government" has zero say in treatment. That's decided by doctors. We also have a public civil service that is entirely separate from politics, so political influence is basically a non-factor; if we had an election and the NDP or Liberals took over the majority from the Conservative Party, no civil servant loses their job because of the political affiliation or lack of it.

Those doctors can't make extra money by jacking up prices, because they're on salary. They're not making so much per surgery or whatever.

There's no market. That's the entire point of a socialized system. Seriously, read up on it, because none of what you just said even approaches the reality.

[Masark]

So...how is this NOT a monopoly? We talk about how if a company gets into a single-provider system (for example, if all computers were Microsoft-based ones), then it's bad because the company can jack up prices.

Because it isn't a monopoly by definition. A monopoly means a single seller, which isn't the case. There's many different sellers, each operating independently. The word you're looking for is monopsony, which means there's a single buyer (hence, single-payer).

[Lilfrier]

I would love socialized health care. Love it.

What we are getting crammed down our throats in America is not socialized health care. We are being forced to buy insurance. There is a huge difference.

Our corporate and banking overlords hate socialism because it takes power and money away from them. Plain and simple.

The left-leaning government passes a massive overhaul of healthcare and it gets blamed on the big corporations that people claim favor the right anyway?

[obdigore]

The left-leaning government passes a massive overhaul of healthcare and it gets blamed on the big corporations that people claim favor the right anyway?

You... have no idea about socialized medicine, who or what proposed the current ACA legislation in the US, or why it is terrible. Honestly, educate yourself before you roll in here and try to debate something like this, please.

[Lilfrier]

Everything you just said is totally incorrect, in just about every imaginable way.

It's not a "monopoly" because it's not a commodity. Companies jack up prices to increase profits. There's no profit to be had in a socialized health care system. They can't jack up prices to make more money, because nobody's making profit. Just salaries.

The "government" has zero say in treatment. That's decided by doctors. We also have a public civil service that is entirely separate from politics, so political influence is basically a non-factor; if we had an election and the NDP or Liberals took over the majority from the Conservative Party, no civil servant loses their job because of the political affiliation or lack of it.

Those doctors can't make extra money by jacking up prices, because they're on salary. They're not making so much per surgery or whatever.

There's no market. That's the entire point of a socialized system. Seriously, read up on it, because none of what you just said even approaches the reality.

Ok, give me something to read and I'll read it. No joke, give me some legitimate, unbiased information on how:

1. The alleged system is beneficial.
2. The system does NOT come at the expense of punishing people who are well-off simply for being successful in the business world.

[Endus]

I think that we do some things better than countries with socialized medicine and I would like to keep those while improving our system. If that involves heading more toward a socialized medical system then so be it, but I don't want to just settle for what other countries have and lose what we do better than them.

Most nations with socialized health care have better health care than the US. And they pay less for that health care. The US pays more per capita for health care in taxes than Canada does. And then you pay almost as much again in insurance premiums and out-of-pocket expenses, where Canadians pay very, very little per capita.

The US system works better if you're well-off enough to have a top-end insurance plan, or you're rich enough to just pay out of pocket with no limits. If you're running your own business and getting by on a limited health care plan until business picks up, or don't have any health insurance at all, it's worse health care, and that's a large portion of the US population.

Seriously; socialized health care systems work really efficiently. You can't skip to the front of the line by waving a stack of hundreds at the admissions staff. That's the big difference.

[prwraith]

Wasn't free.

The taxpayers paid for YOUR surgery.

[Orlong]

It doesn't, and would be beneficial if the U.S. were to adopt a good socialized medicine program. Being the country that spends the most on healthcare, yet has one of the worst healthcare systems is pretty shitty.

Somethings just do not belong in private enterprise hands, especially when it comes to health and well-being.

Its only shitty for those who dont have it. The rest of us who actually work and pay for our healthcare get the best quality care you can get and we dont have to wait months form mris and Catscans

[Lilfrier]

You... have no idea about socialized medicine, who or what proposed the current ACA legislation in the US, or why it is terrible. Honestly, educate yourself before you roll in here and try to debate something like this, please.

I love these kinds of comments. People such as this who like to just post "you're wrong," without trying to make those people see their errors with things such as research suggestions.

I mean, you really expect me to just pop onto a search engine, type in "socialized medicine," and find a bunch of legitimate articles that aren't politically-motivated? If you're going to take the route of calling someone wrong and tell the person to read up on something, why not give some actual suggestions, rather than just saying that the person should "educate yourself."

It's a legitimate problem I see with people--they like to point out when people or wrong, but they don't like to take a moment to provide proof or try to improve the intelligence levels of others.

No, what I tend to study/read about is not on this topic. No, I do NOT trust randomly searching the Internet and its many biased sites for information, same as I don't take your words as legitimately useful when there is nothing but a "you're wrong" post present.

[Orlong]

You have the choice between public or private clinics. You could avoid waiting by paying for it. Be happy you've got the choice.

Yeah, but if you choose to pay for private clinics, youre still forced to pay for everyone else's care through taxes. I dont want to pay for other people's care. I live in this world for me and me only. Everyone should be responsible and take care of themself

[Wells]

Yeah, but if you choose to pay for private clinics, youre still forced to pay for everyone else's care through taxes. I dont want to pay for other people's care. I live in this world for me and me only. Everyone should be responsible and take care of themself

So what if a single payer system reduces the amount of money you personally have to pay for care?

[Orlong]

Because it's a sign of the end of the times and it means that the reds are finally getting their hold on america. Quick, get your guns and stay true to the good ol' american way.

Sad part is, I'm not exaggerating. Even here, in Europe, some people think socialized anything is a sign that the communists are taking over and turning it into a dictatorship. lulz



Everyone having to pay taxes so that society as a whole can live better, by avoiding that an individual has to spend thousands of dollars into healthcare in case of need, seems like a very good investment to me.

But the people shouldnt be FORCED to partake in such a system. Thats why its tyrannical. If a group of people want to get together and do it theirselves and leave everyone else out, then fine but god forbid if someone doesnt want to participate. I dont give a shit about society

[Adam Jensen]

Yeah, but if you choose to pay for private clinics, youre still forced to pay for everyone else's care through taxes. I dont want to pay for other people's care. I live in this world for me and me only. Everyone should be responsible and take care of themself

You really do make the stereotypical conservative.

We're in a civilization, a society, not a world with just you. If you want to live in this world for yourself and you only, I suggest you stop paying taxes, stop using our roads, stop using our schools, stop accepting the aid of our emergency responders and go find an isolated place to live.

[Lilfrier]

Because Taxes. Personally, as an American, I'd be fine with paying a little extra in taxes if it meant I didn't have to worry about going into debt over a major surgery.

Is that not what insurance is? You pay a fee (rather than a tax) that you so choose for your insurance, rather than a mandatory tax from the government to get health care.

[Wells]

But the people shouldnt be FORCED to partake in such a system. Thats why its tyrannical. If a group of people want to get together and do it theirselves and leave everyone else out, then fine but god forbid if someone doesnt want to participate. I dont give a shit about society

Why is a single payer health care system tyrannical while a public road system or school district not? You're still free to buy your own care if you want.

[Orlong]

Bahahahahaha, I suppose the person doesn't realize that their Medicare IS socialized medicine.

And we are FORCED to partake in it via payroll deduction and its bullshit

[Wells]

And we are FORCED to partake in it via payroll deduction and its bullshit

I'm sorry, are you looking for sympathy for having to pay taxes? To pay for constitutional laws created by a representative government?

[Annapolis]

Most nations with socialized health care have better health care than the US. And they pay less for that health care. The US pays more per capita for health care in taxes than Canada does. And then you pay almost as much again in insurance premiums and out-of-pocket expenses, where Canadians pay very, very little per capita.

The US system works better if you're well-off enough to have a top-end insurance plan, or you're rich enough to just pay out of pocket with no limits. If you're running your own business and getting by on a limited health care plan until business picks up, or don't have any health insurance at all, it's worse health care, and that's a large portion of the US population.

Seriously; socialized health care systems work really efficiently. You can't skip to the front of the line by waving a stack of hundreds at the admissions staff. That's the big difference.

Better by many standards yes, but not all. The United States has a very competitive market for doctors which causes a large influx of doctors from other countries as well. Our costs are very high for many reasons and that's something that absolutely needs to be fixed.

I agree entirely with your second paragraph.

I don't think that it is skipping lines though. There are very short waiting lines in emergency rooms in the United States compared to countries with socialized medicine. In other areas there is little difference but the difference in emergency rooms is there. People who are paying more for care are going to private practice. They aren't going to places that would be entirely covered by their insurances anyway.

[Endus]

Ok, give me something to read and I'll read it. No joke, give me some legitimate, unbiased information on how:

1. The alleged system is beneficial.
2. The system does NOT come at the expense of punishing people who are well-off simply for being successful in the business world.

Wiki rankings of countries by health care spending; the US is at the top by a huge margin from even the #2 spot, whether you want to look at per-capita or as a percentage of GDP.
WHO's ranking of health care systems, with the US at #37, well below a whole lot of nations with socialized health care.
More recent Commonwealth Fund report on health care rankings, again ranking the US below many other nations with socialized health care on most measures

You pay more, and the quality you get is at best on par, and typically worse, than that of socialized first world nations. Plus, the current US system is more predatory of those who are well-off, as the entire system is predicated on inflating costs on those patients to make up shortfalls elsewhere. This is a major factor in WHY the US pays so much more than anyone else.