Why does socialized medicine suck again?

[obdigore]

I love these kinds of comments. People such as this who like to just post "you're wrong," without trying to make those people see their errors with things such as research suggestions.

I mean, you really expect me to just pop onto a search engine, type in "socialized medicine," and find a bunch of legitimate articles that aren't politically-motivated? If you're going to take the route of calling someone wrong and tell the person to read up on something, why not give some actual suggestions, rather than just saying that the person should "educate yourself."

It's a legitimate problem I see with people--they like to point out when people or wrong, but they don't like to take a moment to provide proof or try to improve the intelligence levels of others.

No, what I tend to study/read about is not on this topic. No, I do NOT trust randomly searching the Internet and its many biased sites for information, same as I don't take your words as legitimately useful when there is nothing but a "you're wrong" post present.

You could, oh I don't know, start with Wikipedia and enjoy their sources and studies, as well as their linked articles? But they won't talk about Death Panels and huge waits for life-saving procedures, so you probably don't want to listen to it. You could compare costs for the same procedures, dollar for dollar, between CA or UK and the US, and see that the prices in the US are artificially increased due to the intervention of the Insurance Companies as well as the fact that ER's can't turn people away if they have life-threatening problems, and the government already pays for that care.

You and I are literally already spending as much in Taxes for socialized medicine in the US as most other countries, and then if we actually want treatment we (and our employers) have to spend a boatload more on health insurance. You could check that out as well, but again, no death panels so you probably wont like it.

[Orlong]

Why is a single payer health care system tyrannical while a public road system or school district not? You're still free to buy your own care if you want.

But IM not free to NOT pay taxes for everyone else so I would basically be paying twice. I also dont think roads and schools should be payed for by taxes either. Private companies can handle that much like they do in a lot of states with turnpikes and toll roads. It would also be cheaper and more cost efficient since they would be able to extort taxpayers for ridiculous union wages and the companies could build the roads in half the time and people wouldnt be standing around watching others do work every time you drive by

[Wells]

Oh christ private road systems and death panels.

[Adam Jensen]

But IM not free to NOT pay taxes for everyone else so I would basically be paying twice. I also dont think roads and schools should be payed for by taxes either. Private companies can handle that much like they do in a lot of states with turnpikes and toll roads. It would also be cheaper and more cost efficient since they would be able to extort taxpayers for ridiculous union wages and the companies could build the roads in half the time and people wouldnt be standing around watching others do work every time you drive by

And then instead of $2 on the toll booth, they can charge us whatever they like.

Is there anything you think taxes SHOULD pay for, or should everything be paid for by private companies?

I here there's a city under the Atlantic Ocean made for people like you. Might be infested with splicers though . . .

[Twotonsteak]

I just had non-essential surgery in my chest (a procedure which took around 2 hours of operating) and it left me with a bill of around 15 USD... lol
So tell me, why does socialized medicine suck again? This procedure would've cost around 6000 dollars if I had funded it privately....

Because that procedure you got cost far more than $15. And while you may have only paid $15 someone else IS paying for the rest. Typically it's the tax-payer.

[geewhiz80]

Its only shitty for those who dont have it. The rest of us who actually work and pay for our healthcare get the best quality care you can get and we dont have to wait months form mris and Catscans

So my mother who didn't have to work while raising her children, then worked for about 20 years after all of us were grown, and now lives on fixed income, and cannot afford the best insurance because of pre-existing conditions, should have lesser healthcare than you who can afford the best?

[Orlong]

Yes, we would all pay for it.

People who wouldn't need it wouldn't use it. Hell, I still have clients who come in and refuse to claim EIC because they don't want to take the government dime and want to work for themselves.

The EIC needs to be abolished too. Its bullshit and discriminatory against people who decide not to marry and/or have kids.

[sxefluff]

"I heard somewhere people wait a year for surgery, it must be true!"

Except it's not. Anecdotal evidence is worthless for a reason.

dawg op is anecdotal evidence too.

[Amsden]

I wouldn't mind Government run healthcare. I just don't want to deal with Insurance companies at all. I don't know how the rest of the world does it, but I would love it if they found a way to just get rid of the insurance companies and just have one company or agency deal with it.

[Twotonsteak]

It doesn't. Only the American right believes otherwise.

edit - To be clear, I'm American, this isn't supposed to be nation bashing at all. I'm actually quite amenable to market solutions to healthcare problems, but recognize that socializing systems works just fine.

I'm not a Republican or Democrat and I don't like Obama-care. Why? Because it's done NOTHING for me. Seriously, nothing. In fact my health insurance premiums, and co-pay, have both gone UP in the last two months. When I called and asked them why they said, "well you aren't using the insurance but we have to pay for people who are."

So MY insurance premiums and co-pays went up (which Obama said would not happen) to pay for someone else.

Meanwhile I have a cousin collecting 75k a year (note that this is far more than I make) via disability that thinks Obama-care is great because now he wont have to buy insurance for his kids.

So, to recap, I'm paying MORE so someone who makes more money than I do can collect free or discounted health-care.

Whats not to like?

[teddytous]

I am not saying these are right/wrong, merely that these are the usual arguments against/for socialized healthcare or some much more complicated variance theirof:

Arguments against:

1) Some believe competition helps breed a better system. A one tier system with only the government running the show cannot run as good as many free enterprise competing.

2) Some believe they pay an unfair portion compared to others, either because socialized healthcare comes from taxes and usually those who make more pay more then any person would end up ever using or that there are those that don't pay in at all, yet reap the benefit. IE those with no income, those who dodge taxes, illegal immigrants etc.

3) I don't have health problems ever. Why should I pay for people who: * Break their neck skydiving * Catch aids from banging a prostitute * Insert other crazy reason * When I'm smart enough to take care of myself/not take unnecessary risks.

Arguments for:

1) Safety net against complete devastation. No need to remortgage your house to pay for that surgery out of pocket!/Save thousands of dollars *just incase*.

2) Government is the best person to run because this should be a service not a commodity. The government has no interest in making profit, in screwing patients to help shareholders, etc.

3) Everyone gets it no matter what happens. Lose your job, lose your house, but if you get sick someones still gonna help you.

[Lakrin]

I could be wrong, but isn't the entire point moot anyways? As it is in the US, if you can't afford health care, you still get the treatment, and if you default on your payments, your credit gets wrecked and the government still picks up the tab. In fact, by having mandated, socialized health care, things will be in place so that they can be structured in a way to curb those costs in the first place.

[Endus]

Wasn't free.

The taxpayers paid for YOUR surgery.

Like other people paying your insurance company paid for yours. That's how health care is funded, yes. I could go on in greater detail, but it's better addressed to other posts;

Its only shitty for those who dont have it. The rest of us who actually work and pay for our healthcare get the best quality care you can get and we dont have to wait months form mris and Catscans

This is just an outright lie that keeps getting perpetuated.

I've walked into the ER in Canada, and been in the MRI within 90 minutes of walking in the door. Why? Because one of my possible diagnoses was "a brain tumor that could kill you within 24 hours if untreated", and the way to rule that out was the MRI. It turned out NOT to be a brain tumor, thank bacon, but because I needed the test right away, I got it right away.

Nor was this a case of them having an opening to fill; I had to wait 90 minutes because I walked in at 11 at night and they had to warm the machine back up; thankfully the tech hadn't left for the evening yet so they didn't have to wait for him to rush in.

Yeah, but if you choose to pay for private clinics, youre still forced to pay for everyone else's care through taxes. I dont want to pay for other people's care. I live in this world for me and me only. Everyone should be responsible and take care of themself

But the people shouldnt be FORCED to partake in such a system. Thats why its tyrannical. If a group of people want to get together and do it theirselves and leave everyone else out, then fine but god forbid if someone doesnt want to participate. I dont give a shit about society

Yes folks, democratically-implemented taxes for necessary public services is "tyranny". That's totally not a completely ridiculous thing to say.

I don't think that it is skipping lines though. There are very short waiting lines in emergency rooms in the United States compared to countries with socialized medicine. In other areas there is little difference but the difference in emergency rooms is there. People who are paying more for care are going to private practice. They aren't going to places that would be entirely covered by their insurances anyway.

It absolutely is "skipping lines". People with better insurance get priority treatment, and thus get taken in ahead of the uninsured, unless we're talking emergency treatment. One of the reasons lines are somewhat longer in countries with socialized health care is that the ER will see you. Even if you have a cold. If you don't have a family doctor, and need a note to get sick leave pay, you have to go to the ER. Because you're totally not in critical need of treatment, you get bumped down every time someone with a more serious issue comes in, because that's how triage works. You might wait 6-8 hours to get that note. It sucks, that's why you should get a family doctor (which isn't hard nor does it cost you a dime; people just don't bother).

If you actually need treatment, you get it. I've gone in for the aforementioned head issue (atypical migraine, FWIW), and was seeing a doctor within 20 minutes. Another time, I'd partially amputated my right index by dropping a 300lb rock on it. I had to wait an hour and a half before I saw the surgeon to get stitched back together, but that was because a three-car pileup came in right after me, and they had people in critical condition, one guy had a sucking chest wound. "People who might die in the next hour if untreated" get priority over a finger, even if I am holding it together in a towel. Because, again, triage. I got pain meds and was happy to wait.

You're only waiting if there's something more serious going on. And Canadian hospitals can't afford to overstaff, because they're on a budget and can't just jack up prices to pay for more staff; they get funding based on the care they need to provide.

[Stormspellz]

Because some people are almost religiously terrified of the word "socialized."

THIS on so many levels

[Mure]

Yeah, but if you choose to pay for private clinics, youre still forced to pay for everyone else's care through taxes. I dont want to pay for other people's care. I live in this world for me and me only. Everyone should be responsible and take care of themself

Sounds like a pretty miserable existence to me.

[obdigore]

I'm not a Republican or Democrat and I don't like Obama-care. Why? Because it's done NOTHING for me. Seriously, nothing. In fact my health insurance premiums, and co-pay, have both gone UP in the last two months. When I called and asked them why they said, "well you aren't using the insurance but we have to pay for people who are."

So MY insurance premiums and co-pays went up (which Obama said would not happen) to pay for someone else.

Meanwhile I have a cousin collecting 75k a year (note that this is far more than I make) via disability that thinks Obama-care is great because now he wont have to buy insurance for his kids.

So, to recap, I'm paying MORE so someone who makes more money than I do can collect free or discounted health-care.

Whats not to like?

Can you show me the trend of Insurance Premiums since... lets say 2000? Acting like your premiums going up (hey, mine did too, just like every year before that) is Obama's fault is laughable. Did you know that part of the ACA tells insurance companies they can only get between 15 and 20 percent of their premiums as profits, the rest has to be spent on medical care. Guess what, that is a drastic reduction in the profits of 40-50% most insurers have been making, but let me guess, you hate that too? Damn government! Everything they do is wrong because your life isn't perfect!

[Mormolyce]

Well... I imagine it sucked for the people who paid for your ($6000-$15) operation.

[Twotonsteak]

Why is a single payer health care system tyrannical while a public road system or school district not? You're still free to buy your own care if you want.

Before Obama-care people who had insurance paid more for their premiums to cover the ER visits by people without insurance.

Post Obama-care people who have insurance pay more for their premiums to cover the ER visits by people on the Government system.

Why, yes, I can see the improvement.

Call my cynical and all. But, really, I was already paying more. The only difference is now the Government is heavily involved. And how is having a bigger, more involved, Government better?

I mean I work a seasonal job, in a resort area, nine months out of the year. My yearly income is, well, let's just say I qualify as "working poor." But I have insurance. And my premiums just went up. Meanwhile my cousin, collecting 75k a year in disability, is going to have his children enrolled in Obama-care as soon as possible.

Tell me, in what world, does it make sense that someone making less than half of 75k should have to pay for their own insurance and contribute to the health-insurance of someone who is collecting 75k a year? Oh right, Obama's world of big Government.

[Masark]

Well... I imagine it sucked for the people who paid for your ($6000-$15) operation.

Yes, I'm sure they suffered greatly from lacking that tenth of a cent in their bank balance.

[geewhiz80]

Well... I imagine it sucked for the people who paid for your ($6000-$15) operation.

If we go by the population of England alone (approximately 50 million) that 1 surgery cost everyone 0.001 USD, so 1/10th of 1 cent.

If everyone contributes to the well being of a society the cost isn't that great. People just are too greedy and self absorbed to care about others outside their immediate circle.