Boy... this makes me really eager to stop advocating mens rights...

[Wells]

I promise you that I am working on it Wells

No you're not.

[Stir]

its abortion, not "opting out by dumping my responsibility on the other party"

The other side of abortion: Depriving a father from his child.
It's an unpopular point of view because pregnancy is a hefty thing, but that doesn't make it less true.
Abortion: It's not murder until it's your own child. Most of us can agree that abortion isn't murder; taking away a clump of cells that have hardly entered the stage of 'animal' isn't murder... But once you become a parent, it can turn into a completely different matter entirely. Emotion doesn't often comply with ratio.
Again: The male has no say in whether or not an abortion happens. Therefore, the male should get his own choice in whether or not he wants this child, just like the female does.

available to whoever has custody.

Which, in most countries, is usually the female. And by usually, I mean: Nearly always.

[jbombard]

Wow, I think that this comment might take the cake for the one to most make me lose faith in humanity. Has morality taken such a back seat that people are legitimately OK with infidelity, as long as disease doesn't result? I certainly hope that this is a VERY rare opinion, because I personally think of infidelity as the #1 reason to end a marriage, with abuse being the only one that might challenge it.

I think he used the word girlfriend not wife. If you aren't married yet, it may not be ideal but it happens.

[Stir]

I think he used the word girlfriend not wife. If you aren't married yet, it may not be ideal but it happens.

Girlfriend or wife... What does it matter? Either way, you make a promise to one another.

[jbombard]

Girlfriend or wife... What does it matter? Either way, you make a promise to one another.

Really you think cheating on a girlfriend is the same as cheating on your wife? Really?

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

i wish i was, but you have been screaming about how much i hate men for saying "men share a responsibility for children" for about as long as you've replied to me. then you have to try very hard to prove it to nobody.

just put me on ignore if you dont like what i say.

False. This is another lie. I have just recently accused you, and proven you of it. But knowing how you respond and lie, I guess I was silly for expecting you to keep your deal.

No you're not.

Promise.

[starlord]

The other side of abortion: Depriving a father from his child.
It's an unpopular point of view because pregnancy is a hefty thing, but that doesn't make it less true.
Abortion: It's not murder until it's your own child. Most of us can agree that abortion isn't murder; taking away a clump of cells that have hardly entered the stage of 'animal' isn't murder... But once you become a parent, it can turn into a completely different matter entirely. Emotion doesn't often comply with ratio.
Again: The male has no say in whether or not an abortion happens. Therefore, the male should get his own choice in whether or not he wants this child, just like the female does.

if you argue that a fetus is a child, it makes the whole "men should have abortions" angle look even worse, and invalidates it.
its also rather telling that the bonding a female often feels with the "potential child" inside her, that is far stronger, is dismissed cause "hey she should just kill her child if she doesnt want it to lack support."
not saying you have, but if the fathers bonding is brought up, so should the mothers.

Which, in most countries, is usually the female. And by usually, I mean: Nearly always.

its easier to determine the parent if you pull it out of someone than find a father who probably isnt there. but thats something that needs addressing.

this nonsense about "male abortions" runs counter to the notion that fathers deserve more consideration in custody.

---------- Post added 2013-01-20 at 10:28 PM ----------

False. This is another lie. I have just recently accused you, and proven you of it. But knowing how you respond and lie, I guess I was silly for expecting you to keep your deal.

Promise.

ive done you the courtesy of not attacking you personally for your little games, intentionally distorting my posts, and constantly playing the victim.
i think that says enough about both of our characters.

[TheBeardedOne]

This thread has gone around in circles for days now.
How is it unreasonable to allow men to opt out? a financial abortion if you like.

Firstly it must be understood that this does not affect what the woman does with her own body and it never should.
All it does is allow the man to keep his current life style as the woman would if she adopted out or had an abortion.

The possible outcomes from this would be as follows;
1-both man and woman want to keep it- both are happy
2- man wants to keep it but woman doesn't- the WOMAN decides on whether or not to carry it or have an abortion, if she carries it she has no financial responsibility
3- man doesn't want it but woman does- man has limited period to opt out, woman has all the FACTS in ample time and is able to make whatever decision she wants

So please Tili and darenyon and the other haters, how is this unreasonable and the not closest we will get to equality?????
Why should the man have his body used and abused (after all no matter what job you are doing you are using your body, so why should you be taking mans bodily autonomy not to mention the extra stress forced upon them from having to pay, and yes stress is very bad for your body) for 18 years to pay for something he never wanted while if the woman didn't want it she could get rid of it? This is not equal no matter what way you cut it but this solution gives the best options and doesn't force women into doing anything they do not want to with the body.

[starlord]

So please Tili and darenyon and the other haters, how is this unreasonable and the not closest we will get to equality?????
Why should the man have his body used and abused (after all no matter what job you are doing you are using your body, so why should you be taking mans bodily autonomy not to mention the extra stress forced upon them from having to pay, and yes stress is very bad for your body) for 18 years to pay for something he never wanted while if the woman didn't want it she could get rid of it? This is not equal no matter what way you cut it but this solution gives the best options and doesn't force women into doing anything they do not want to with the body.

first off: a man who decides to have sex is not having his body violated.
secondly, its about providing for the kid, not punishing the man. he experiences far less stress than the one raising it alone, not to mention the kid itself.
that is my problem with "financial abortion" - it defeats the purpose of child support.. providing for an unwanted kid.
what we have now, where both parties are responsible for their decisions, is the closest to equality imo. takes two to tango, two to support the kid.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

ive done you the courtesy of not attacking you personally for your little games, intentionally distorting my posts, and constantly playing the victim.
i think that says enough about both of our characters.

You literally JUST attacked me personally (Again). Again, none of that is true. I posted, without changing a thing, posts you have said in regards to men.

---------- Post added 2013-01-21 at 01:48 AM ----------

This thread has gone around in circles for days now.
How is it unreasonable to allow men to opt out? a finical abortion if you like.

Firstly it must be understood that this does not affect what the woman does with her own body and it never should.
All it does is allow the man to keep his current life style as the woman would if she adopted out or had an abortion.

The possible outcomes from this would be as follows;
1-both man and woman want to keep it- both are happy
2- man wants to keep it but woman doesn't- the WOMAN decides on whether or not to carry it or have an abortion, if she carries it she has no finical responsibility
3- man doesn't want it but woman does- man has limited period to opt out, woman has all the FACTS in ample time and is able to make whatever decision she wants

So please Tili and darenyon and the other haters, how is this unreasonable and the not closest we will get to equality?????
Why should the man have his body used and abused (after all no matter what job you are doing you are using your body, so why should you be taking mans bodily autonomy not to mention the extra stress forced upon them from having to pay, and yes stress is very bad for your body) for 18 years to pay for something he never wanted while if the woman didn't want it she could get rid of it? This is not equal no matter what way you cut it but this solution gives the best options and doesn't force women into doing anything they do not want to with the body.

I agree with this. The Woman should not have choice over my finances, just as a man should not have choice over a womans body.

If a woman knows a man does not want a child, and goes to erm with it anyway, it should be her responsibility.

[starlord]

You literally JUST attacked me personally (Again). Again, none of that is true. I posted, without changing a thing, posts you have said in regards to men.

in regards to men who want to abandon their children, like the vast majority of "mens rights" posters on this board.

[LilSaihah]

first off: a man who decides to have sex is not having his body violated.

Except they are, because however much of their income- And chances are, their income is the product of their body- is being taken from them.

secondly, its about providing for the kid, not punishing the man. he experiences far less stress than the one raising it alone, not to mention the kid itself.
that is my problem with "financial abortion" - it defeats the purpose of child support.. providing for an unwanted kid.
what we have now, where both parties are responsible for their decisions, is the closest to equality imo. takes two to tango, two to support the kid.

Except it is punishing the man. If you take someone's money they're probably going to, at the very least, call you a thief.

If it's an unwanted kid, abort the little bastard or put it up for adoption. Entering the stress of raising a child, as a woman, is entirely optional, unless you voted for Romney and don't want to be a hypocrite I guess. After impregnating a woman, the choice is entirely out of the man's hands.

[TheBeardedOne]

first off: a man who decides to have sex is not having his body violated.
secondly, its about providing for the kid, not punishing the man. he experiences far less stress than the one raising it alone, not to mention the kid itself.
that is my problem with "financial abortion" - it defeats the purpose of child support.. providing for an unwanted kid.
what we have now, where both parties are responsible for their decisions, is the closest to equality imo. takes two to tango, two to support the kid.

I never said a man having sex is having his body violated, I am saying by forcing him to pay child support for something he does not want you are harming him due to increased stress and other burdens placed forcibly upon him. Secondly the woman has all the facts in ample time to make decision on whether or not she will be able to afford the child. Yes it takes two to tango and i am not denying that but currently one party can choose to drop all responsibility while the other has it just forced upon them and has no choice at all.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

in regards to men who want to abandon their children, like the vast majority of "mens rights" posters on this board.

Again, this is false and more misandry. No one wants that. We want equal respect and choice.

[starlord]

I never said a man having sex is having his body violated, I am saying by forcing him to pay child support for something he does not want you are harming him due to increased stress and other burdens placed forcibly upon him. Secondly the woman has all the facts in ample time to make decision on whether or not she will be able to afford the child. Yes it takes two to tango and i am not denying that but currently one party can choose to drop all responsibility while the other has it just forced upon them and has no choice at all.

thats not harm, no. as i said, giving both parents the "option" to force their responsibility on the other solves nothing.
abortion doesnt force responsibility on anyone like "opting out" does, so its not a valid reason to have it. neither is it a thing most women would do unless they were extremely desperate. its a last resort, not "lulz im opting out, c ya". those few that treat it as such are putting their health at risk.

there is really no basis for any inequality that doesnt amount to how peoples bodies work differently in this regard.

other things like custody laws, those do have discrimination.

---------- Post added 2013-01-20 at 11:10 PM ----------

Again, this is false and more misandry. No one wants that. We want equal respect and choice.

the choice to... "opt out of parental responsibility, and let women deal with it". that means "abandon my child".
that wont get you respect.

---------- Post added 2013-01-20 at 11:12 PM ----------

Again, this is false and more misandry.

no, its not. group of men =\= all men.

[timmyotoole]

This thread has gone around in circles for days now.
How is it unreasonable to allow men to opt out? a financial abortion if you like.

Firstly it must be understood that this does not affect what the woman does with her own body and it never should.
All it does is allow the man to keep his current life style as the woman would if she adopted out or had an abortion.

The possible outcomes from this would be as follows;
1-both man and woman want to keep it- both are happy
2- man wants to keep it but woman doesn't- the WOMAN decides on whether or not to carry it or have an abortion, if she carries it she has no financial responsibility
3- man doesn't want it but woman does- man has limited period to opt out, woman has all the FACTS in ample time and is able to make whatever decision she wants

So please Tili and darenyon and the other haters, how is this unreasonable and the not closest we will get to equality?????
Why should the man have his body used and abused (after all no matter what job you are doing you are using your body, so why should you be taking mans bodily autonomy not to mention the extra stress forced upon them from having to pay, and yes stress is very bad for your body) for 18 years to pay for something he never wanted while if the woman didn't want it she could get rid of it? This is not equal no matter what way you cut it but this solution gives the best options and doesn't force women into doing anything they do not want to with the body.

It would be a strange world indeed if you could "opt out" of taking responsibility for your actions.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

no, its not. group of men =\= all men.

Yes, equating someone that wants equal rights to a child abandoner, when speaking about men is indeed man hate.

---------- Post added 2013-01-21 at 02:16 AM ----------

It would be a strange world indeed if you could "opt out" of taking responsibility for your actions.

Oh wait, women have plenty of "opt outs" in regards to an unwanted pregnancy/baby. Thats totally legit.

[timmyotoole]

You literally JUST attacked me personally (Again). Again, none of that is true. I posted, without changing a thing, posts you have said in regards to men.

---------- Post added 2013-01-21 at 01:48 AM ----------



I agree with this. The Woman should not have choice over my finances, just as a man should not have choice over a womans body.

If a woman knows a man does not want a child, and goes to erm with it anyway, it should be her responsibility.

So she should take full responsibility for her actions because he doesn't want to take any for his?

Try and think of it like this: What if abortion were not possible? In fact, at least in the US, this isn't really that far fetched; probably about half the country would prefer it not be legal and the majority look down on it.

[Wells]

I'm starting to doubt you here.

Where did I say that you want to force women to get abortions?

[LilSaihah]

So she should take full responsibility for her actions because he doesn't want to take any for his?

Try and think of it like this: What if abortion were not possible? In fact, at least in the US, this isn't really that far fetched; probably about half the country would prefer it not be legal and the majority look down on it.

Abortion not legal, child support mandate continued: More single mothers.

Abortion not legal, child support mandate not continued: Women being much more careful/'tight-lipped' about who they have sex with.

There's spillover between the two, of course; women will be more careful about who they have sex with even if they can get child support. People tend to be very careful about doing things that have harsh consequences, though, and not being drip-fed money will be a very real disincentive towards single motherhood.