Why does socialized medicine suck again?

[Glorious Leader]

...I think you mean "Distributed"...

Though I am trying to picture what "disturbed wealth" is... I'm kinda picturing an "Attack of the Killer Tomatoes" kinda horror story with Dollar Bills strangling people.

Man I was enjoying my morning coffee. Now it's all over my screen from loling. Thank you!

[Miscer]

Payroll holiday, nothing to do with healthcare costs.

Not in my case.

...I think you mean "Distributed"...

Though I am trying to picture what "disturbed wealth" is... I'm kinda picturing an "Attack of the Killer Tomatoes" kinda horror story with Dollar Bills strangling people.

I think we may have just coined a new catch phrase, lol.

[fengosa]

Not in my case.

Can you clarify? Are insurance cost taken directly off of your paycheck?

[Orlong]

Yes. Its called an investment.

Well I dont want to make that investment. There is nothing in it for me

---------- Post added 2013-01-21 at 02:20 PM ----------

Yes. Currently consists of 12 frigates, 3 destroyers, 4 submarines, 12 coastal defense ships, and various other miscellany.

Wow, the US has more than that at just one base. I dont know that I would call that a Navy, maybe a flotilla

---------- Post added 2013-01-21 at 02:25 PM ----------

...then please enlighten us as to what causes Socialized Medicine in other countries to be much cheaper and yet maintain the same level of care, if not better, than the USA?

The reason it is much cheaper in other countries is because they limit the amount that will be paid by the government forcing the US to subsidize research into new drugs and procedures by paying the asinine prices we do. Ever wonder why new drugs and medical procedures are never discovered or invented anywhere other than the US?

[Endus]

Wow, the US has more than that at just one base. I dont know that I would call that a Navy, maybe a flotilla

Don't be deliberately obtuse. The US has almost ten times the population of Canada. And about 15 times as many ships. So, relative to population, your Navy is about half again as large as ours.

And we don't choose to bankrupt ourselves with inflated military spending, which is why we have significantly less debt per capita and a much lower current deficit per capita as well.

[Dezerte]

The reason it is much cheaper in other countries is because they limit the amount that will be paid by the government forcing the US to subsidize research into new drugs and procedures by paying the asinine prices we do. Ever wonder why new drugs and medical procedures are never discovered or invented anywhere other than the US?

That sounds like a rather bold claim, do you have any reliable source for that information?

[Kurioxan]

Don't be deliberately obtuse. The US has almost ten times the population of Canada. And about 15 times as many ships. So, relative to population, your Navy is about half again as large as ours.

And we don't choose to bankrupt ourselves with inflated military spending, which is why we have significantly less debt per capita and a much lower current deficit per capita as well.

Was about to say that, not every country is paranoid and afraid of the world, US has the biggest spending on military in the world, it needs several of the other ones together to make it close to the budget.
If they spend that money on social policies, then the US would be the most advanced country in the world, which it isnt right now... such a enormous waste of resources at the cost of citizens quality of life, then again its a difference in perspective i guess.

Also not to forget that while the "US" is a "country" realistically it is more akin to the EU than it is to canada, its a joining of many different country-sized states, so its more akin of a continent, to compare US to a country is the same as comparing the EU to a single country, senseless.

---------- Post added 2013-01-21 at 07:36 PM ----------

Ever wonder why new drugs and medical procedures are never discovered or invented anywhere other than the US?

What a load of crap, many advances in medicine were done elsewhere, drugs? yes the US pharma industry is allmighty, but not medicine per se.

[Trunksee]

and how much did you make? because in the US, for a year of work with nought but a HS diploma, you'd be hard pressed to be making more than 20k before taxes

Um not true. Thats all i have and if your willing to work your ass off in a trade i make 70k a ywar in construction. You just have to be willing to work.

[Ausr]

That sounds like a rather bold claim, do you have any reliable source for that information?

Should know by now he won't provide a source or make a legitimate statement that is true.

[Endus]

What a load of crap, many advances in medicine were done elsewhere, drugs? yes the US pharma industry is allmighty, but not medicine per se.

Besides which, most of those pharmacorps are based in the US because the laws regarding taxation and research and such are favorable. It has nothing to do with the price of pills.

[Deleted]

Well I dont want to make that investment. There is nothing in it for me

Education is an investment we all profit from, even if you do not have kids or plan to not ever have kids, remember that education is providing the future workforce that will pay for your pension.

Ever wonder why new drugs and medical procedures are never discovered or invented anywhere other than the US?

Do you even think about what you are writing before you post? Or do you just look at the American flag and put your hand on your heart before you click "post reply"? America is not the only first world country, and it certainly isn't the country where most scientists come from (they do employ the most scientists tough, but more then half of them are recruited outside US).

[Theinquisition]

This is something we find pretty commonly among various elements of the "Stop Big Gubmint!" and "Welfare is Bad!" crowd; welfare that they receive is something they've earned, as where the welfare other people get is because Those People are lazy.

As a U.S. recipient of gov't healthcare, i can say that your not missing much.

I would support gov't healthcare only if the people getting it had to meet certain specific requirments.

1. Reckless behavior that results in you getting hurt will be your own cost. I.E. Motorcycling with no PPE, skateboarding with no PPE...etc. If people are going to help you pay for your healthcare costs, then the individual will have to show responsiblity in their actions.

2. If your obese, your doctor will put you on a exersize routine and diet. As long as the person makes adequate progress (3-6 lBS) a month than they will continue to recieve gov't funded healthcare, for every month that they do not meet satisfactory progress, they will have to foot 20% of the overall treatment bills resulting from their obesity.

3. There will be a 20$ co-pay per visit, this will keep people from habitually going to the ER everytime they stub their toe.

4. If you smoke...100% related costs to you....If you drink or use recreational drugs...100% on you.


The problem that myself and many other americans have with a single payer system is that there would be many people unwilling to subject themselves to requirments such as these to recievegov't healthcare.

With communial responcibility comes individual accountability.

[Tierbook]

hmmm i was just looking at debt clock.org for debt around the world and i wondered why America was blinking

[Deleted]

hmmm i was just looking at debt clock.org for debt around the world and i wondered why America was blinking

Dear god that thing is scary, huge numbers and painfull math xS

[Annapolis]

That sounds like a rather bold claim, do you have any reliable source for that information?

http://archive.sciencewatch.com/dr/cou/2008/08aug20CLI/

But I'll say that I don't know how much this indicates we spend on medical research. We do probably spend more than other countries through the NIH (which got defunded a bit recently I think) and we support pharmaceutical research for orphan drugs through the orphan drug act. However I've heard that a large reason our costs are much higher than other countries is because of unnecessary treatments.

[Dezerte]

http://archive.sciencewatch.com/dr/cou/2008/08aug20CLI/

But I'll say that I don't know how much this indicates we spend on medical research. We do probably spend more than other countries through the NIH (which got defunded a bit recently I think) and we support pharmaceutical research for orphan drugs through the orphan drug act. However I've heard that a large reason our costs are much higher than other countries is because of unnecessary treatments.

That link only gives us an idea on how much medicine research is done, which unsurprisingly the US scores first on.

Orlong however was claiming the US is the sole inventor of medicine.

[theredviola]

Because if you're too poor to aford healthcare, it's your fault for not working hard enough! It's YOUR fault you didn't go to college and get a degree in underwater basket weaving to land you that 100K a year job! It's YOUR fault you took a bad job. Stop leeching off MY hard earned money! I worked for years to get to this desk job where I can set on my ass all day holding meetings while making in a day what you make in a month. STOP BEING LAZY, THAT'S WHY.

/end rant
/sarcasm mode off

[Glorious Leader]

Oddly enough all that medical research is done at... wait for it.. PUBLIC EXPENSE. That's always the case with fundamental research. The internet was developed for example at PUBLIC EXPENSE. Big pharma r and d is more about marketing and testing than it is about fundamental research.

[Theinquisition]

Because if you're too poor to aford healthcare, it's your fault for not working hard enough! It's YOUR fault you didn't go to college and get a degree in underwater basket weaving to land you that 100K a year job! It's YOUR fault you took a bad job. Stop leeching off MY hard earned money! I worked for years to get to this desk job where I can set on my ass all day holding meetings while making in a day what you make in a month. STOP BEING LAZY, THAT'S WHY.

/end rant
/sarcasm mode off

Class envy is delicious

[Mihalik]

What really bothers me when it comes to the American debate about Socialized Medicine, is the apparent missinformation of part of the public.

A socialized healthcare system and a private insure system ARE NOT MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE. Socialized healthcare is paid out of a fund that is fueled by something called Social Security. The governament legistlates how much of that goes into unemployement benefits, public housing etc and healthcare. Social security is not a % of your income, but a fixed summ. True the summ goes up and down depending on which tax bracket you are going into, but the variation is rarely more then 100%. Meaning the highest earner will pay double that the minimum income taxpayer, but not really much more. Let's face if someone on minimum wage is paying 400 euros (for exemple, I'm using European numbers here as I am more familiar with taxes and such here), someone who is earning the top tax brackets can pay 800 without considering it being a major blow to his income.

The funny thing is tho that unemployement benefits awarded to you are proportional to your previous income. Like 70% of your last paycheck was. So while you do pay more, you do recieve more when you need it.

Going back to healthcare. When you have a socialized healthcare system, the governament is normally not allowed to fund healthcare from income tax, as there is already an existing tax for funding healthcare. Altought while they often do funnel money around it is almost never healthcare but rather additional services, such as free ambulance transport for the elderly for regular health check ups, free preemptive care, subsidies for things like alternative theraphy etc. things that someone would not strictly consider healthcare, just care in general. For exemple...here in Spain everyone who is classed as suffering of certain limitations on his autonomy (disabled or elderly) are given something that looks like a necklace with a button on it. If the button is pressed it alerts the medical services that the person will be needing an ambulance at his home and it will start emiting a loud sound alert so if the person is in a public space people around him know that he needs medical assistance. Of course this is a horribly expensive service and it is paid for by social security. And it's up for debate if it should be included or not, at least in my mind.

Now going back to the private care. Private hospitals still exist and are available to anyone who can afford it. But due to the fact that the private health service is in direct competition with the public one (which is "free" as they will not deny you any type of care you might need no matter if you are an illegal migrant or you are not a taxpayer) the private care providers need to keep their services at a reasonable price, otherwise they are dead. Thus usually people who do contract private insurance do so for the extra service, immediate personalized care, hotel room quality hospital bedrooms which is still more affordable then in the US. And even so, if they need any service for which they do not want to pay extra (like a full check up or a flu shot or an expensive operation not covered by their insurer) they can still at any time go to their nearest hospital.

Further more. The story of not being allowed to pick your own doctor is another myth. Everyone is free to chose their family doctor as long as it is a person holding a proper license, he maybe a doctor from the governament health service or even a private practice (private practices who are paid by the governament, but are paid the same amount as a governament doctor would). You can also choose your own specialists or hospital as long as he/she is available and it is within the district/region where you are hospitalized.

So if you really look into it, no matter what you chose private or public care in a welfare state with a free market and public healthcare you end up having more choices available to you, 100% security that you will recieve care and all that will still be cheap or atleast cheaper for everyone.

A nother issue when it comes to healthcare is that the general wealth of a nation has a great impact on the quality of the care available. Also socialized care systems tend to yield greater national results the poorer a country is. They might be less healthy then richer nations, but without said system being available to them they would be much much worse off.