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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalyyn View Post
    Earth without humans would be pointless. No other species has made a contribution to science or technology since we wiped out the neanderthals. Granted, I may have just hurt my own argument there...


    Um, why would it be pointless? You imply there is a greater purpose, there is not. The earth woudl continue on, the ecosystems woudl stabilise and a balance would form over time and be maintained.

    If we carry on as we are, we are almost certainally looking at global catastrophy, possibly even at a level of a mass extinction event.

  2. #122
    The Lightbringer Violent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peggleftw View Post
    i agree with this, whats the point of the earth without us? just be animals killing each other. we are destructive, but all in the name of progress!
    Since when was the name of the game progress? This is a Human institution and a vain-human way of thinking. A deer doesn't go out of its way to trample a rabbit.. A pack of wolves will take down a deer.. This is not evil, this is not cruel.. That is how a food chain works. Without a food chain, you have no ecosystem, with no ecosystem, you have nothing else... Rocks, water, & air, is all you get.

    No one really even knows for a fact that we're supposed to be here anyway.. Show me "Earth plan 2.0" that says it's going to implement humans.
    Last edited by Violent; 2013-01-22 at 08:21 PM.
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  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Lantfan View Post
    Actually a woman having 2 children doesn't increase the population in the long run.

    According to calculations using models the human population will increase to 9 billions and stay at that level. I'm not sure if this is to much people for this planet but there won't be 14 billion people in year 2050.
    Ya but he is still contributing to maintain the levels. The black plague was a plague too. If he gave the black plague to just 2 people which just maintained the level of increase wouldn't that be not okay? Especially if he was specifically speaking out against spreading the black plague?

  4. #124
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    Some of you might know Pentti Linkola. He shares David' thoughts and has written much about the subject here in Finland, so this doesn't come to me as a surprise nor shock.

    He's right in that the planet can't sustain the load today's consuming creates forever. I don't agree with the inhumane and haphazard means that many radical ecologists propose though. Civilization and humanity has it's limits and it's space too in nature.

  5. #125
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    Eh. Overpopulation. I'm getting so sick of that word.

    1) Eventually, all countries are bound to complete their demographic transition, something that the top 60 or so countries have already completed, and at that point there wont be any population growth. Demographic transitions occur with the rise of the development of a nation, or HDI, and as you can see here, there were 3 countries in the world that had a development decline in year 2011, one of them being Libya for obvious reasons.

    2) Humanity is sustainable in any numbers because of 2 reasons; technology and the fact that the more people you have, the more food is grown. When it comes to food, humanity is completely sustainable.

    As for things like the atmosphere and its linkage with overpopulation... well, I'm sure scientists will figure out mass CO2 scrubbers fairly soon. All in all, overpopulation is a problem that receives way too much attention.

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by Wikiy View Post
    Eh. Overpopulation. I'm getting so sick of that word.

    1) Eventually, all countries are bound to complete their demographic transition, something that the top 60 or so countries have already completed, and at that point there wont be any population growth. Demographic transitions occur with the rise of the development of a nation, or HDI, and as you can see here, there were 3 countries in the world that had a development decline in year 2011, one of them being Libya for obvious reasons.

    2) Humanity is sustainable in any numbers because of 2 reasons; technology and the fact that the more people you have, the more food is grown. When it comes to food, humanity is completely sustainable.

    As for things like the atmosphere and its linkage with overpopulation... well, I'm sure scientists will figure out mass CO2 scrubbers fairly soon. All in all, overpopulation is a problem that receives way too much attention.
    You bring up some fair points.

    Besides, overpopulation is already happening in parts around the world (Africa comes to mind); how should we solve those?
    "In order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must be intolerant of intolerance." Paradox of tolerance

  7. #127
    The Lightbringer Violent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dezerte View Post
    You bring up some fair points.

    Besides, overpopulation is already happening in parts around the world (Africa comes to mind); how should we solve those?
    IMHO, They will "solve" themselves.. Thought it may be suffering to them, it's still a means to an end. I'm speaking of Disease, Famine (in terms of not letting ppl eat), and wars.
    Which Africa is no stranger to all three, at once. And all three are great population thinners.
    <~$~("The truth, is limitless in its range. If you drop a 'T' and look at it in reverse, it could hurt.")~$~> L.F.

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  8. #128
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    I've heard a little saying, paraphrasing that if all traces of human existence were to disappear then life would flourish immensely, take away all the insects of the world and it's likely all life would die within a few years.

    Humans are a blight on the planet but I don't think we are going anyway soon without some sort of cataclysmic event like the KT extinction or total consumption of non-renewable energy.

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalyyn View Post
    Earth without humans would be pointless. No other species has made a contribution to science or technology since we wiped out the neanderthals.
    Both of which are ego-centric human constructs, and nothing more. Mother nature, biology, evolution, or whatever you want to call it, doesn't care at all about the latest hybrid vehicle or 'discovery' we stumble across. And we do far more damage than good.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    I think it's plain that anyone who believes himself to be part of the plague should commit suicide. Why wouldn't they?
    Probably because the survival instinct in most rational people overrides the very obvious notion that humanity is a bad thing for the planet and all its other inhabitants.

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Both of which are ego-centric human constructs, and nothing more. Mother nature, biology, evolution, or whatever you want to call it, doesn't care at all about the latest hybrid vehicle or 'discovery' we stumble across. And we do far more damage than good.
    Who decides that? I believe that we do more good than damage.

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by Violent View Post
    IMHO, They will "solve" themselves.. Thought it may be suffering to them, it's still a means to an end. I'm speaking of Disease, Famine (in terms of not letting ppl eat), and wars.
    Which Africa is no stranger to all three, at once. And all three are great population thinners.
    Stand idly by & watch the flames?

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-22 at 10:06 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Both of which are ego-centric human constructs, and nothing more. Mother nature, biology, evolution, or whatever you want to call it, doesn't care at all about the latest hybrid vehicle or 'discovery' we stumble across. And we do far more damage than good.
    Not that I necessarily agree with Kalyyn, but good/evil are also human constructs. Mother nature doesn't care either way, because it's not sentient. It's like asking whether this rock I'm holding cares about anything; it's nonsensical to think along those lines.
    "In order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must be intolerant of intolerance." Paradox of tolerance

  12. #132
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    I like how we teach people that they are a plague. It's really good for self-esteem.

    We need Emperor Obama to clean up the planet. Maybe he needs to unleash an airborn virus on us then replace those who survive with genetically engineered super humans.

    The funny part is I am 100% sure that some of you here would even want that to happen. Lol.

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by Garian View Post
    I like how we teach people that they are a plague.
    Sounds awfully close to something else. NO, BAD KITTY. Let's not go there.
    "In order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must be intolerant of intolerance." Paradox of tolerance

  14. #134
    Legendary! Wikiy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dezerte View Post
    Besides, overpopulation is already happening in parts around the world (Africa comes to mind); how should we solve those?
    It will solve itself, as I've said... those countries will eventually reach the HDI level at which developed nations are right now, and regardless of how much more developed the current developed nations will be at that point, those African countries will go through the demographic transition and their population growth rates will be pretty much equal to what they are right now for developed countries and the reason is simply the fact that industrialization includes the demographic transition.

  15. #135
    Imagine a world without us... Oh the joy... But then again, some other species would evolve and take control one way or another...

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by Kejinx View Post
    Humans are a blight on the planet but I don't think we are going anyway soon without some sort of cataclysmic event like the KT extinction or total consumption of non-renewable energy.
    Damn Batarian!

    *Mass Effect 2 refference

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-22 at 10:12 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Wikiy View Post
    It will solve itself, as I've said... those countries will eventually reach the HDI level at which developed nations are right now, and regardless of how much more developed the current developed nations will be at that point, those African countries will go through the demographic transition and their population growth rates will be pretty much equal to what they are right now for developed countries and the reason is simply the fact that industrialization includes the demographic transition.
    Well, I don't like the idea of sitting back and letting it "solve itself". That's a lot of human suffering.
    "In order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must be intolerant of intolerance." Paradox of tolerance

  17. #137
    The Lightbringer Violent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dezerte View Post
    Stand idly by & watch the flames?
    Pretty much..
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  18. #138
    The only way any permanent sense of survival will be had by any species on this planet is through technological advancements that allow for the creation and control of environments stable enough to sustain those species. This rock isn't going to be here forever regardless of human's presence, and the only chance any species stands of permanent survival is through either gaining the intelligence to master technology as previously mentioned or to have life that has done such intervene on their behalf and create an environment for them.

    So my recommendation? Stop bitching about how evil and horrible the human species is and start researching to find a way to make life flourish and remain strong to a far greater degree than it would if we didn't exist, because we very much have the power to do just that. And unless you believe some hyper-intelligent alien species is going to show up here one day and put all the species we've got into some sort of preserve, we're the only ones that can do it.

    Don't get me wrong, we need to do things to minimize the harm we cause, but stop this stupid shit of "the Earth would be better without us."

  19. #139
    The Lightbringer Violent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dezerte View Post
    Damn Batarian!

    *Mass Effect 2 refference

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-22 at 10:12 PM ----------



    Well, I don't like the idea of sitting back and letting it "solve itself". That's a lot of human suffering.
    That is just the way we see it. As I said, it's a means to an end. Whether we like the way to get there or not, isn't really of any concern.
    <~$~("The truth, is limitless in its range. If you drop a 'T' and look at it in reverse, it could hurt.")~$~> L.F.

    <~$~("The most hopelessly stupid man is he who is not aware he is wise.")~$~> I.A.

  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    Edit - I think part of my problem with his stance is the optics of an old, white, British guy with tons of money and two kids telling people living in poverty how they should best live their lives. Pretty paternalistic, yeah?
    Well its not like what they're doing is working out real well for them. Maybe, a few less kids makes things easier. I mean its a fairly common idea that less children leads to more financial gain. Also that education in world views leads to a better life generally. Or we can let them sell each other into slavery, fornicate until AIDS becomes a massive problem, and then endorse it with a catholic stamp. All while living in unsanitary squander. Maybe that old rich white guys ideas aren't so hurtful, but maybe the classist racism you are promoting makes more sense. He's rich and white he can't have any idea what is relevant to the life of anyone who isn't rich and white. Not everyone who is rich and white is looking to step on the backs of the poor non-white.

    Side note, two kids doesn't create over population. Two people making two kids is nothing more than the chance of replacement of the current number. Excess of two children causes over population, there is even a strong argument that 3 children in older times wouldn't have caused an increase due to child death/early life death/etc. Also the fact that we create a massive longevity in the existing population is probably more of a factor than just breeding at this point as well. Old people just don't like this comment.

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