Purge of Dalaran - Character vs. Player

[Darth-Piekus]

My apologies. I found those treacheries. Let's see.

Krevan betrayed both sides to align with Malygos. Dealt by the Kirin Tor.

Kel Thuzad left the Kirin Tor to follow the Cult of the Damned and the Scourge was formed later by Arthas. Turned against both sides.

Kaelthas Sunstrider the Blood Elf if I recall. Turned against everyone but left the Kirin Tor before that.

Telestra betrayed the Kirin Tor and sided with Malygos against both sides.

Urom did the same as the Inquisitor also.


So no those betrayals are completely out of topic. Those either left the Kirin Tor or Betrayed the Kirin Tor and turned against Azeroth.
The Sunreavers on the other hand betrayed the Kirin Tor by helping Garrosh on his war against the Alliance which is against the Neutral Policy of the Kirin Tor.

Do you now understand the difference of those betrayals and the Sunreaver one?

[Combatbutler]

BUT THE SUNREAVERS ARE A GROUP. If there are individuals who do stuff you can deal with them individually, but if they have no affiliation to any subgroup inside the Kirin Tor, what do you want to do. Throw out random people?

The sunreavers are Kirin Tor just as much as the rest, no not throwing random guys investigate who is responsible or is an accomplice.

Again what I am arguing is now which would have been done ideally, though it is clear Jaina had no time or wasn't in the mood to start her own investigation and as such did what was necessary, still if you compare it to how Dalaran operated in the past it is somewhat hypocritical that the sunreavers don't get the chance those before them got.

Do you now understand the difference of those betrayals and the Sunreaver one?

The sunreavers intended to steal an artifact for the horde, without compromising their standing in the Kirin Tor, while the others turned against their former friends and allies,intending to destroy Dalaran for good.

It does not damage my main point in the least, which is the Kirin tor have never been that trustworthy to begin with and were far more lenient in the past, why the sunreaver receive such a hard treatment is not how they used to handle things.

[DFu4ever]

Individuals are flawed, but in the Horde, the Forsaken

I will once again point out that while being extreme in how they handle warfare, the Forsaken are also the only one of the races whose territory is constantly under active assault by both the Alliance and Kirin Tor, although at this point the threats at Southshore and Ambermill have been mostly dealt with. The Forsaken literally fight a war on their own turf because some douchebag humans want to kick them out of their homes.

They have the best justification of any of the races in the game to be brutal to their enemies, because their enemies whole rationale for invasion is that they don't recognize their right to exist.

[Combatbutler]

I will once again point out that while being extreme in how they handle warfare, the Forsaken are also the only one of the races whose territory is constantly under active assault by both the Alliance and Kirin Tor, although at this point the threats at Southshore and Ambermill have been mostly dealt with. The Forsaken literally fight a war on their own turf because some douchebag humans want to kick them out of their homes.

They have the best justification of any of the races in the game to be brutal to their enemies, because their enemies whole rationale for invasion is that they don't recognize their right to exist.

Lets be honest here the forsaken are a bunch of ruthless bastards, doing whatever they please, if they can get away with it. But that is to be expected from them.

[DFu4ever]

Lets be honest here the forsaken are a bunch of ruthless bastards, doing whatever they please, if they can get away with it. But that is to be expected from them.

They are ruthless, that is without question. But at the same time the Alliance's stance on them from moment one has been to consider them abominations unworthy of occupying the territory they once lived in. So basically the Alliance are effectively pushing for the genocide of the Forsaken. So really, why should the Forsaken hold back in defending themselves within their own territory?

[Combatbutler]

They are ruthless, that is without question. But at the same time the Alliance's stance on them from moment one has been to consider them abominations unworthy of occupying the territory they once lived in. So basically the Alliance are effectively pushing for the genocide of the Forsaken. So really, why should the Forsaken hold back in defending themselves within their own territory?

They don't have to hold back, but that does not change that they are ruthless bastards, as justified as they might be. Objectivity is key here ;P

[DFu4ever]

They don't have to hold back, but that does not change that they are ruthless bastards as justified as they might be. Objectivity is key here ;P

I agree. They are one enemy that will not hold back if you mess with them. The Eastern Kingdoms should be happy that the Forsaken seem content to stay within their borders.

[Aquamonkey]

So no those betrayals are completely out of topic. Those either left the Kirin Tor or Betrayed the Kirin Tor and turned against Azeroth.
The Sunreavers on the other hand betrayed the Kirin Tor by helping Garrosh on his war against the Alliance which is against the Neutral Policy of the Kirin Tor.

Do you now understand the difference of those betrayals and the Sunreaver one?

Kirin Tor stopped being neutral as soon as they sent military aid to Theramore.

[Deleted]

And yet no one can provide any evidence or proof showing how the Sunreavers "used Dalaran" in a way Jaina did not. Keep yelling it until you're blue in the face - it's not going to make it any less false.

The Kirin Tor were meant to be neutral. The Sunreavers weren't. Even after Theramore Jaina insisted on the Kirin Tor remaining neutral.

It's not rocket science.

---------- Post added 2013-01-24 at 11:06 PM ----------

Kirin Tor stopped being neutral as soon as they sent military aid to Theramore.

The mages in Silverpine were apparently an oversight.

[Sal the Shieldhog]

Kirin Tor stopped being neutral as soon as they sent military aid to Theramore.

Agreed there.

The especially ironic part is that Aethas was the one who advocated going to Theramore's aid. Shows how far Jaina has degraded, I think.

[Sandrox]

Agreed there.

The especially ironic part is that Aethas was the one who advocated going to Theramore's aid. Shows how far Jaina has degraded, I think.

Probably because he knew that it was about to be attacked and wanted some of the Kirin Tor to die.

[Sal the Shieldhog]

Probably because he knew that it was about to be attacked and wanted some of the Kirin Tor to die.

Right, because he doesn't legitimately want to stop Garrosh, he just, y'know, doesn't hate the guy or anything.

Nope.

[Sandrox]

Right, because he doesn't legitimately want to stop Garrosh, he just, y'know, doesn't hate the guy or anything.

Nope.

He says he does, yet everything he actually does is saying he wants to stay with the Horde. Actions > words.

[Sal the Shieldhog]

He says he does, yet everything he actually does is saying he wants to stay with the Horde. Actions > words.

And Jaina's actions are doing the same (and she's miss "The Kirin Tor will stay neutral even though I just tried to wipe Orgrimmar and my best friend off the map, so yeah, go ahead and make me your leader").

As for the record (since you seem to be horribly out of the loop), Aethas has no clue what goes on. Any Sunreaver involvement was done by Garrosh's lackeys; That is, NOT THE SUNREAVERS AS A WHOLE. 1 or 2 Sunreavers did it under Garrosh's order; That should not include the rest, most (if not all) had nothing do with it. As for Aethas, the dude has spent the past few decades fixing up Dalaran, rebuilding it, fighting to get a place in it again. Why the hell would he throw it away fro a guy he hates? (And DON'T tell me he knew this was gonna happen, nobody can see any of this turning out the way it has. If you seriously tell me this is a plan started before Garrosh and Outland were even discovered (again), any and all of your credibility will be lost).

[Sandrox]

And Jaina's actions are doing the same (and she's miss "The Kirin Tor will stay neutral even though I just tried to wipe Orgrimmar and my best friend off the map, so yeah, go ahead and make me your leader").

As for the record (since you seem to be horribly out of the loop), Aethas has no clue what goes on. Any Sunreaver involvement was done by Garrosh's lackeys; That is, NOT THE SUNREAVERS AS A WHOLE. 1 or 2 Sunreavers did it under Garrosh's order; That should not include the rest, most (if not all) had nothing do with it. As for Aethas, the dude has spent the past few decades fixing up Dalaran, rebuilding it, fighting to get a place in it again. Why the hell would he throw it away fro a guy he hates? (And DON'T tell me he knew this was gonna happen, nobody can see any of this turning out the way it has. If you seriously tell me this is a plan started before Garrosh and Outland were even discovered (again), any and all of your credibility will be lost).

Thats exactly the problem, he has no idea whats going on. He has traitors running around using his faction to spy and attack the Alliance, and does nothing about it. That is why Jaina removes them. The entire faction cant be trusted because the leader is not in control.

Also, the Sunreavers rejoined Dalaran just before Wrath, which is like 4 years ago. Not decades.

[Aquamonkey]

Thats exactly the problem, he has no idea whats going on. He has traitors running around using his faction to spy and attack the Alliance, and does nothing about it. That is why Jaina removes them. The entire faction cant be trusted because the leader is not in control.

Also, the Sunreavers rejoined Dalaran just before Wrath, which is like 4 years ago. Not decades.

Just because Aethas didn't catch Fanlyr, doesn't mean he wasn't trying to catch spies. The thing about spies is that they try not to get caught.

[Sal the Shieldhog]

Thats exactly the problem, he has no idea whats going on. He has traitors running around using his faction to spy and attack the Alliance, and does nothing about it. That is why Jaina removes them. The entire faction cant be trusted because the leader is not in control.

Also, the Sunreavers rejoined Dalaran just before Wrath, which is like 4 years ago. Not decades.

Even so, he still spent years getting the Sin'dorei (not even the race, just the small group he led, which eventually led to Horde being in Dalaran) back into it.

How is he not in control? You try being the leader of a faction/nation of a few hundred people, and weasel out a few traitors (so far, we know of 2. That's it). Up until know, we didn't know Garrosh had spies, and how would Aethas know if they hadn't revealed themselves?

As for the "figuring out thing," Jaina asked him to keep and eye out and he did. He can't find every traitor, it's statistically impossible (much like how America's FBI cannot find every single sleeper agent-terrorist in America, it's simply impossible).

The fact remains that Jaina ousted an entire sub-faction because of a few bad apples (and condemned and slandered the names of people who were supposedly "close friends," even those who advocated for her to get the position she has now *cough*Aethas*cough*).

[Sandrox]

Even so, he still spent years getting the Sin'dorei (not even the race, just the small group he led, which eventually led to Horde being in Dalaran) back into it.

How is he not in control? You try being the leader of a faction/nation of a few hundred people, and weasel out a few traitors (so far, we know of 2. That's it). Up until know, we didn't know Garrosh had spies, and how would Aethas know if they hadn't revealed themselves?

As for the "figuring out thing," Jaina asked him to keep and eye out and he did. He can't find every traitor, it's statistically impossible (much like how America's FBI cannot find every single sleeper agent-terrorist in America, it's simply impossible).

The fact remains that Jaina ousted an entire sub-faction because of a few bad apples (and condemned and slandered the names of people who were supposedly "close friends," even those who advocated for her to get the position she has now *cough*Aethas*cough*).

Those 2 traitors destroyed an entire city and killed thousands of people; and gave Garrash, a mass murderer, a very dangerous weapon.

He also didnt spend years getting the Blood ELves back into Dalaran, it was months at best. All of BC was them trying to get to Outland to rejoin with Kael, until they learned he betrayed them and joined the Legion. Then it was stopping Kael at the sunwell. After that was when they tried to join with the Kirin Tor because Malygos was starting his war on the magic.

[Aquamonkey]

Those 2 traitors destroyed an entire city and killed thousands of people; and gave Garrash, a mass murderer, a very dangerous weapon.

He also didnt spend years getting the Blood ELves back into Dalaran, it was months at best. All of BC was them trying to get to Outland to rejoin with Kael, until they learned he betrayed them and joined the Legion. Then it was stopping Kael at the sunwell. After that was when they tried to join with the Kirin Tor because Malygos was starting his war on the magic.

Aethas was in the Kirin Tor when they were rebuilding Dalaran after the 3rd War. He helped them move the city to Northrend. Aethas was already a Council member when he went to Theron to get support for their fight with Malygos. At the time, Aethas was considered separate from the Blood Elves.

[Sandrox]

Aethas was in the Kirin Tor when they were rebuilding Dalaran after the 3rd War. He helped them move the city to Northrend. Aethas was already a Council member when he went to Theron to get support for their fight with Malygos. At the time, Aethas was considered separate from the Blood Elves.

I wasnt talking about Aethas, I was talking about the Blood Elves, the Sunreavers. The Blood Elves had no interested or reason to rejoin with Dalaran during BC because they thought they were going to the promised land to rejoin with Kael. It wasnt until after that fell through that Aethas decided to try to get them to rejoin Dalaran.