Suggestion: If Rift does go F2P...

[Kelimbror]

Not really, there are guilds who cleared the current content quickly using barely anything more than what they farmed from dungeons or crafted beforehand. Sure you need Tier 1 gear to be able to beat Tier 2 bosses, but by the time Tier 2 shows up you've long since been in full T1 gear so it's not really a gating mechanism, nothing stops you doing T2 content once it is released if you've been doing T1 content.

The .05% of players that compete for world firsts in any game that throw thousands of attempts at a boss for 14 hours a day are not a part of this conversation. The game isn't balanced around them alone and should never be. So the point is valid. The gear gates your progression. That's the way it is designed. If you think otherwise, then there would be no reason for gear. So clearly the game system disagrees with you

I was illustrating a point, try not to take things so literally just so you can get on your soap box. Ultimately though, it is far easier to turn up to an invasion via a guild banner, hit the last boss a few times, get 10 IS, than it is to spend hours learning to beat a boss and hours more farming it for lootThinking of it this way, let's imagine that this takes 2mins of your time to banner to a boss and hit it for the IS reward, so 2-3hrs to get an epic item with absolutely no skill involved at all, a child could do this.

Let's also assume that you're in an average progressive guild who can clear FT in one raid, and EE in another, and a third night gets you the ten man raid. A total of ~30 bits of loot will drop, so ignoring the time spent learning to beat the boss and wiping with no reward and assuming that all of the loot is useful (lol), let's say that nine hours of raiding for your average raider get's you 1.5 bits of loot, or roughly one bit of loot for six hours of effort, which also requires you to know your class, know the fight, practice for hours, have 19 other people turn up and do the same thing several nights a week, weeks on end.

This is why raiding offers the best rewards: it takes a commitment to turn up and organize, takes the most actual time, most effort, most skill..

You aren't illustrating points very well, since you want to make up ridiculous examples that aren't realistic so that you can be on your own soapbox. Pots and kettles friend. As the game stands now you can't show up hit the boss, repeat a couple of times, and get an epic. You know this, so quit trying to make up ridiculous scenarios. You know as it stands right now that you need like 300 IS to get the upgrade pieces for a 2h? Even at 10 a pop, that's 30 events. Considering that banners have a cooldown, it's going to require much more than clicking a button, teleporting there, and hitting the boss once

To respond to your actual point behind the embellishment, you don't see how a certain amount of IS required would negate the fact that it is 'easier' to obtain, though at a much higher time required? You put in harder work (by your standards) in a shorter time. If someone puts in less 'work' (by your standards) over a much greater time...give me an actual logical reason why it shouldn't be rewarded the same. Please factor in the health of the game and the community while you're at it.

Just left a guild where I was an officer because of the inability of people to commit, got tired of chasing people to turn up, learn fights and learn specs for months and it affecting our progress. Guilds that don't commit don't progress, and regardless of what people think it is a commitment to dedicate three nights a week raiding for weeks on end, plus time practicing on dummies, reading strats etc. Mind you this is the view of a progressive raider. I am sure some people who just get carried along months after content is released and on farm see it differently (judging by some of these posts this is definitely the case), but that's because they do none of the work involved in arriving at the point where it is 'easy' and the skill component is less obvious and mitigated by practice and gear.

Because you choose to put more into it doesn't make you better than anyone. The game system tells you so. Your opinion doesn't matter. If someone raids in a group and downs a boss, they can get loot. The game doesn't say, oops...you didn't spend 2 hours on a training dummy this week and watching youtue videos (lol like this is work, learning a strat...give me a break) so you don't get loot.

I was a hardcore raider, feral tank, in TBC. I raided 4-5 nights a week. Sure I had to farm things, get things crafted, etc, etc...but to act like it was hard is laughable. Maybe I was just that skilled then, that I should be incredible arrogant about it, but there is no way I can spin it to being difficult other than the time it invested out of my real life.

And that's what it boils down to. The time you invest out of your real life. That's what should be rewarded in all of these games. A lot of games are starting to follow that trend. Rift already does it somewhat. Increasing the magnitude of that wouldn't do anything wrong.

[Lathais]

I still don't understand what half of this has to do with F2P. This is extremely off-topic and a mod already warned us once. i see this thread getting closed fast.

and good riddance anyway. F2P talk needs to stay away from Rift. Enough people already think badly about it and think it is or will be F2P, we don't need more talk about it substantiating those rumors.

Also sick of all the entitled, gimme free loots talk in this thread. You people sicked me and have made one of my favorite forums a place I no longer wish to go.

---------- Post added 2013-01-25 at 08:43 AM ----------

As the game stands now you can't show up hit the boss, repeat a couple of times, and get an epic. You know this, so quit trying to make up ridiculous scenarios. You know as it stands right now that you need like 300 IS to get the upgrade pieces for a 2h? Even at 10 a pop, that's 30 events. Considering that banners have a cooldown, it's going to require much more than clicking a button, teleporting there, and hitting the boss once

Yes, you can. Actually, it's even easier than this, you don't even need a guild banner. When a Zone Event is up, the IA quest for the zone becomes to complete the IA. Join IA for that zone, it teleports you there, you tag, not even kill, just tag, one invasion, not even the boss, not even close a rift, just tag one invasion, leave IA, it teleports you back to wherever you were when you joined and when the event is complete you get 10 IS. IT REALLY IS THAT FUCKING EASY. If you happen to tag the boss, yes, just tag, just shoot him once, you get a bonus IS.

[RoninaThorstone]

I still don't understand what half of this has to do with F2P. This is extremely off-topic and a mod already warned us once. i see this thread getting closed fast.

This coming from the guy who derailed it with

Why should it? Fully upgraded IS gets you the lowest Expert Quality. Fully upgraded Expert gets you lowest Raid Quality. Already far more than you need if you are not raiding anyway.

Anyways, debating a reward system is a decent idea in a thread about f2p since many models block out content and gear access. By having multiple paths to the goal, you can put a paywall in front of the preferred paths (raids) and people will have to choose between a very long grind or buying access to raids to have good gear.

[Lathais]

This coming from the guy who derailed it with

Anyways, debating a reward system is a decent idea in a thread about f2p since many models block out content and gear access. By having multiple paths to the goal, you can put a paywall in front of the preferred paths (raids) and people will have to choose between a very long grind or buying access to raids to have good gear.

and as soon as you put a paywall in front of raids, you lose raiders.

[RoninaThorstone]

and as soon as you put a paywall in front of raids, you lose raiders.

There already is a paywall. its called a subscription.

[Kelimbror]

Also sick of all the entitled, gimme free loots talk in this thread. You people sicked me and have made one of my favorite forums a place I no longer wish to go.

Would you like us to throw you a self admitted elitist pity party? Your ego seems prevents you from reading actual ideas presented and instead assume the completely obvious and innacurate ideas that are repeated ad nauseum instead of having a mature and civil discussion. And this is not insulting or flaming you, it's stating something you must not see because no one is asking for free loot and you are being vehemently angry about it.

Yes, you can. Actually, it's even easier than this, you don't even need a guild banner. When a Zone Event is up, the IA quest for the zone becomes to complete the IA. Join IA for that zone, it teleports you there, you tag, not even kill, just tag, one invasion, not even the boss, not even close a rift, just tag one invasion, leave IA, it teleports you back to wherever you were when you joined and when the event is complete you get 10 IS. IT REALLY IS THAT FUCKING EASY. If you happen to tag the boss, yes, just tag, just shoot him once, you get a bonus IS.

That is a problematic design with the events I'll give you, but it's being washed away as if it doesn't take any time, thought, or actions to accomplish. And that somehow even doing this a 'few' times will lead to epics. That is what I said certainly doesn't happen even under the current system.

Under what is being discussed, which is completely relevant to the F2P discussion, would be to increase the loot quality and the amount of IS needed to obtain it. Adding a tiered system to that gear.

It's relevant because discussing ways that gear can be even more rewarding is a definite checkpoint on how can the overall game be more rewarding as F2P. It's all a theoretical discussion which has a perfect place being discussed if people would quit flying off the handle and act like adults.

---------- Post added 2013-01-25 at 10:02 AM ----------

and as soon as you put a paywall in front of raids, you lose raiders.

Do you really? You already pay $15 a month for this service. What if you got everything the game had now except raids for free and raids became $50 for a year's worth of raiding? Maybe $10 a raid for 5 raid tiers?

Now you save money, but still get the same service. In fact, it frees you to spend your 'extra' money on anything else the game or other games might have to offer.

What if your subscription gave you access to these raids as well, but now you earn your currency a little bit faster or gave you a 25% chance to get personal loot drops from the bosses, or rewarded you with increased reputation gain in a raid to buy rep only enhancements for you gear? Now you have what you already had, plus additional rewards for your effort and time, and you pay the same $15 you have always been.

[Lathais]

Would you like us to throw you a self admitted elitist pity party? Your ego seems prevents you from reading actual ideas presented and instead assume the completely obvious and innacurate ideas that are repeated ad nauseum instead of having a mature and civil discussion. And this is not insulting or flaming you, it's stating something you must not see because no one is asking for free loot and you are being vehemently angry about it.


That is a problematic design with the events I'll give you, but it's being washed away as if it doesn't take any time, thought, or actions to accomplish. And that somehow even doing this a 'few' times will lead to epics. That is what I said certainly doesn't happen even under the current system.

Under what is being discussed, which is completely relevant to the F2P discussion, would be to increase the loot quality and the amount of IS needed to obtain it. Adding a tiered system to that gear.

It's relevant because discussing ways that gear can be even more rewarding is a definite checkpoint on how can the overall game be more rewarding as F2P. It's all a theoretical discussion which has a perfect place being discussed if people would quit flying off the handle and act like adults.

---------- Post added 2013-01-25 at 10:02 AM ----------


Do you really? You already pay $15 a month for this service. What if you got everything the game had now except raids for free and raids became $50 for a year's worth of raiding? Maybe $10 a raid for 5 raid tiers?

Now you save money, but still get the same service. In fact, it frees you to spend your 'extra' money on anything else the game or other games might have to offer.

What if your subscription gave you access to these raids as well, but now you earn your currency a little bit faster or gave you a 25% chance to get personal loot drops from the bosses, or rewarded you with increased reputation gain in a raid to buy rep only enhancements for you gear? Now you have what you already had, plus additional rewards for your effort and time, and you pay the same $15 you have always been.

The point is, it is really easy, especially with Rift mobile app, to be doing anything else, playing iwth kids, watching a movie, jacking off, whatever, and when you get that zone event alert on your mobile go spend 1 minute and get 10 IS. Doing this, you can EASILY make 100 a day. Hell, I could remote log in to my desktop from work and do that. You want people who do that to be able to have the same quality of gear as someone who spends hours a day playing, actually playing, not sitting there afk waiting for zone events. Someone who earned the plat or gathered the mats to get crafted gear, spent the time running dungeons to get that gear to get raid ready, to sit there and wipe while learning fights on progression nights, showing up consistently week after week hoping the piece of gear he needs drops and that he wins it deserves more. You are the one that is blind to that and you are calling me blind.

Yes, I may be mildly elitist, if expecting people to pull their weight and work for what they have is elitist. However, if you are in my guild, or ask on forums, I will help direct you what you need to do to get what you want. You still have to do the work though. I am not gonna do it for you. I am not gonna carry people in my raids and dungeons. If you don't pull your weight and earn your spot and show commitment and dedication, then yeah, you are gone. If that make me elitist, then yes I am.

AS far as F2P, as I said, I am done talking about it. It needs not be discussed. It is for games that were designed that way from the start. There are some good ones out there, that were designed that way from the start. In a game that was not designed that way from the start, it is a death sentence. Yes, you may have a surge afterwards, and you may be able to hang on to a few people and keep being profitable for years, but either the quality or the quantity end up dropping and the games slowly dwindle down to just a few loyal players. Rift is active and growing, I do not want to see that happen to it. I completely understand that there are some great F2P models out there, and if done right they can be great games. I'm looking at you Path of Exile. However, when an MMORPG that was a sub goes F2P the majority of the community perceives that as "the game is dieing" and avoid it. Some may come check it out, hence the surge after going F2P, but many of those do not stick around, and eventually many people leave, more than came in, and they dwindle down. The diehards and the fanboys still love the game and play, and proclaim great things about it. The company still puts out positive messages and says great things, but the player base continues to slowly and steadily decline. I do not want that in Rift. If it had been designed F2P from the start that would be completely different, but it wasn't.

[RoninaThorstone]

The point is, it is really easy, especially with Rift mobile app, to be doing anything else, playing iwth kids, watching a movie, jacking off, whatever, and when you get that zone event alert on your mobile go spend 1 minute and get 10 IS. Doing this, you can EASILY make 100 a day.

And you could also pay a guild in plat (or cash through paypal) to carry you through a raid and have certain loot on reserve for you.

There are always ways to cheat the system. What's your point?

Further, I actually suggested a way to block the exact behavior you are talking about just a few posts up.

Which does raise an interesting question... Should there be "hard" world bosses? Should credit for bosses be based of contribution points? Say, the top 25% of the world event or world boss contribution receives a lot of tokens where as those who contributed less get less?

If you are so concerned about it, why not talk about some ideas that you think would create a more equitable IS/mark/raid loot system instead of saying "well, it wouldn't work in the status quo" as this thread isn't about the status quo but possible futures.

[Lathais]

And you could also pay a guild in plat (or cash through paypal) to carry you through a raid and have certain loot on reserve for you.

There are always ways to cheat the system. What's your point?

Further, I actually suggested a way to block the exact behavior you are talking about just a few posts up.

If you are so concerned about it, why not talk about some ideas that you think would create a more equitable IS/mark/raid loot system instead of saying "well, it wouldn't work in the status quo" as this thread isn't about the status quo but possible futures.

You could, but that would require you having a bunch of plat and the content already being old and outdated so the people carrying do not also want it. You also have to show up, even if you get carried, you gotta be there, and you still only have a chance of it dropping instead of a guarantee like IS is. Yes, it is a problem with the system and I don't like it and my guild does not sell loot like that.

The thing is, I am not concerned about it, because as the game sits it is fine. That gear, fully upgraded, can get you into raids so you can achieve the raid stuff, if you can hack it. If you can't, that's as far as you go. The system is fine and I like it the way it is, why would I discuss changing it?

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[RoninaThorstone]

AS far as F2P, as I said, I am done talking about it. It needs not be discussed. It is for games that were designed that way from the start. There are some good ones out there, that were designed that way from the start. In a game that was not designed that way from the start, it is a death sentence.

As to this bit. Fine, no one is forcing you to post in this thread. That does not mean that it shouldn't be discussed. I'm sorry but you don't have that sort of say in the matter.

Also, there are plenty of good MMOs that were P2P that are good F2P mmos now. To call f2p a death sentence is not backed up by evidence at all.

[Lathais]

As to this bit. Fine, no one is forcing you to post in this thread. That does not mean that it shouldn't be discussed. I'm sorry but you don't have that sort of say in the matter.

Also, there are plenty of good MMOs that were P2P that are good F2P mmos now. To call f2p a death sentence is not backed up by evidence at all.

Where are those MMOs now? As I said, barely hanging on to a small loyal player base, making some money, but they are very very small. Rift is active and growing. New people joining all the time, and not as many leaving as coming, you know, growing. Those games that made the transition are either holding steady, or slowly slowly dieing.

[RoninaThorstone]

You could, but that would require you having a bunch of plat and the content already being old and outdated so the people carrying do not also want it. You also have to show up, even if you get carried, you gotta be there, and you still only have a chance of it dropping instead of a guarantee like IS is. Yes, it is a problem with the system and I don't like it and my guild does not sell loot like that.

The thing is, I am not concerned about it, because as the game sits it is fine. That gear, fully upgraded, can get you into raids so you can achieve the raid stuff, if you can hack it. If you can't, that's as far as you go. The system is fine and I like it the way it is, why would I discuss changing it?

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

You had to show up for the world event too. And?

Also, this is a discussion board. People discuss things on them.

If it ain't perfect, improve it.

[Kelimbror]

The point is, it is really easy, especially with Rift mobile app, to be doing anything else, playing iwth kids, watching a movie, jacking off, whatever, and when you get that zone event alert on your mobile go spend 1 minute and get 10 IS. Doing this, you can EASILY make 100 a day. Hell, I could remote log in to my desktop from work and do that. You want people who do that to be able to have the same quality of gear as someone who spends hours a day playing, actually playing, not sitting there afk waiting for zone events. Someone who earned the plat or gathered the mats to get crafted gear, spent the time running dungeons to get that gear to get raid ready, to sit there and wipe while learning fights on progression nights, showing up consistently week after week hoping the piece of gear he needs drops and that he wins it deserves more. You are the one that is blind to that and you are calling me blind.

You bring up great points, but they are a matter of implementation currently. It doesn't have to be exactly how it is now. You can blame the event notices on the evolution of technology, because believe it or not most people are digitally tethered via their tablets and phones. Even in that respect, that's evolution of gaming working with our lifestyles. You may not like it, but we aren't going to resort to draconian game systems because for the whole of the game it would be a bad choice.

We are simply talking about the reasons why raiding shouldn't be the only way to get the best (stat wise) gear. They could implement a new currency that is only available via special rifts, that require rep, or this and that, where you have to actively participate and having a larger organized group yields better rewards. It doesn't have to be tied into IS and the World Events. Would it still be as horrible to you then? Where you are directly responsible for finding, creating, and then performing actions in order to get a currency for higher loot?

Judging from how you are explaining it, this concept should be much more in line with how you decide what is worthy of being rewarded. Am I wrong?

AS far as F2P, as I said, I am done talking about it. It needs not be discussed. It is for games that were designed that way from the start. There are some good ones out there, that were designed that way from the start. In a game that was not designed that way from the start, it is a death sentence. *snip* I do not want that in Rift. If it had been designed F2P from the start that would be completely different, but it wasn't.

Thankfully your opinions aren't indicative of what has actually happened. F2P hasn't really proven to be a 'death sentence' for just about any game. In fact for most of them it has been a grander lease on life and everyone has been the better for it. Rift is already hanging on by a small player base. Most F2P games have far more people playing them than Rift. I'm not certain a mass influx of players would be good for this game and I also would prefer that it stay a subscription, service based game.

But like I've said before, I trust Trion more than any company with this sort of thing. With all the games they are releasing, hopefully they will go the completely opposite direction and offer a lumped, premium service across the board. Standard subscriptions I think are on the decline, but that doesn't mean that F2P is the only innovation gaming has left.

I think premium subscriptions are actually a great avenue for a company like this to pursue.

---------- Post added 2013-01-25 at 10:44 AM ----------

Where are those MMOs now? As I said, barely hanging on to a small loyal player base, making some money, but they are very very small. Rift is active and growing. New people joining all the time, and not as many leaving as coming, you know, growing. Those games that made the transition are either holding steady, or slowly slowly dieing.

This is just simply not true. We don't have definitive evidence either way, other than the fact that the games are still producing content, still providing innovation to their game and the genre, and the companies still exist profitably..since they exist outside of bankruptcy.

[RoninaThorstone]

Where are those MMOs now? As I said, barely hanging on to a small loyal player base, making some money, but they are very very small. Rift is active and growing. New people joining all the time, and not as many leaving as coming, you know, growing. Those games that made the transition are either holding steady, or slowly slowly dieing.

Which is what people say about Rift. It's all relative.

[Lathais]

You bring up great points, but they are a matter of implementation currently. It doesn't have to be exactly how it is now. You can blame the event notices on the evolution of technology, because believe it or not most people are digitally tethered via their tablets and phones. Even in that respect, that's evolution of gaming working with our lifestyles. You may not like it, but we aren't going to resort to draconian game systems because for the whole of the game it would be a bad choice.

We are simply talking about the reasons why raiding shouldn't be the only way to get the best (stat wise) gear. They could implement a new currency that is only available via special rifts, that require rep, or this and that, where you have to actively participate and having a larger organized group yields better rewards. It doesn't have to be tied into IS and the World Events. Would it still be as horrible to you then? Where you are directly responsible for finding, creating, and then performing actions in order to get a currency for higher loot?

Judging from how you are explaining it, this concept should be much more in line with how you decide what is worthy of being rewarded. Am I wrong?

Thankfully your opinions aren't indicative of what has actually happened. F2P hasn't really proven to be a 'death sentence' for just about any game. In fact for most of them it has been a grander lease on life and everyone has been the better for it. Rift is already hanging on by a small player base. Most F2P games have far more people playing them than Rift. I'm not certain a mass influx of players would be good for this game and I also would prefer that it stay a subscription, service based game.

But like I've said before, I trust Trion more than any company with this sort of thing. With all the games they are releasing, hopefully they will go the completely opposite direction and offer a lumped, premium service across the board. Standard subscriptions I think are on the decline, but that doesn't mean that F2P is the only innovation gaming has left.

I think premium subscriptions are actually a great avenue for a company like this to pursue.

How can you even say some games have more players than Rift when you have NO IDEA how many play Rift.

Yes, if they changed the system and it wasn't IS and you had to work together in a coordinated group that required skill then it is worth it. What you just described is raiding. It is what is already in place. It is what I like.

They have more players than Rift, but are they as profitable? Do they have as much money coming in? Do they have MAJOR content updates every ~6-8 weeks? With major hotfixes that are the size of some content patches in other games every week or 2? No, they do not.

---------- Post added 2013-01-25 at 09:48 AM ----------

Which is what people say about Rift. It's all relative.

People say that about Rift because Rift does not release it's sub numbers. We have no idea how many play. It could for all we know have 2 million subs. It could easily be #2 on the market currently.

[RoninaThorstone]

People say that about Rift because Rift does not release it's sub numbers. It is more than likely #2 on the market currently, I wouldn't call that small. It's not the giant WoW is, but nothing ever will be.

But you don't know. It could be swtor has more, or lotro, or w/e.

weren't you moving on with your life?

Anyways
costume pieces would probably go over pretty well. They could sell costumes that make you look like major plot characters like [Asha's Breastplate] or something.

[Lathais]

But you don't know. It could be swtor has more, or lotro, or w/e.

weren't you moving on with your life?

Anyways
costume pieces would probably go over pretty well. They could sell costumes that make you look like major plot characters like [Asha's Breastplate] or something.

SWTOR has 20 servers, about half have light pop, the rest have standard. They admitted having less than 1 million, more than 500k before going F2P. Haven't read much recently on it, but that seems pretty small. Especially when you consider that Trion just upgrade it's servers to handle more people. I doubt those servers in SWTOR hold more people than a Rift server.

LOTRO has 29 servers. Again, the game is older than Rift so I doubt it's server contain as many people, especially not concurrently. Is it more profitable than when it was a sub, sure, probably. Does it get updates anywhere near as often or as near as big as Rift. Doubtful. I don't want to see Rift become that.

I want to move on, but it is extremely slow here at work and I have nothing better to do.

Also, if they want to sell costume pieces, go ahead, on top of the sub. People that want that pointless crap can buy it and I can chuckle at them every time I see it in game.

[Tarien]

Ah, another who equates "Doesn't want to raid and/or burnt out" with "No skill". I didn't magically lose my skill from years of doing every role in raids overnight, you know.

No but you aren't using it. If I'm a world class sports athlete or quantum physicist who could be earning millions a year but decide to teach instead, hardly in a position to complain about the pay am I? That's my choice not to push myself and use my potential, I should stop QQing about it. And by me I mean you.

So, I will probably stop supporting them soon.

Does that mean you'll stop insulting me every chance you get, putting words into my mouth? That day cannot come soon enough.

The .05% of players that compete for world firsts in any game that throw thousands of attempts at a boss for 14 hours a day are not a part of this conversation. The game isn't balanced around them alone and should never be. So the point is valid. The gear gates your progression. That's the way it is designed. If you think otherwise, then there would be no reason for gear. So clearly the game system disagrees with you.

No reason for gear other than a sense of progression and growth of your character? Clearly the game disagree's with you. The reason for gear is to advance your character and give you that feeling of power gain not to gate your progression. Tiers are progressively harder to maintain the challenge factor. You're looking at this ass backwards.

You aren't illustrating points very well, since you want to make up ridiculous examples

No you just deliberately misconstrue what I am saying in order to delude yourself into thinking you have an argument. Try arguing with what I clearly mean, rather than what you wish I mean so that you actually have a retort at all.

As the game stands now you can't show up hit the boss, repeat a couple of times, and get an epic. You know this, so quit trying to make up ridiculous scenarios. You know as it stands right now that you need like 300 IS to get the upgrade pieces for a 2h? Even at 10 a pop, that's 30 events. Considering that banners have a cooldown, it's going to require much more than clicking a button, teleporting there, and hitting the boss once

To respond to your actual point behind the embellishment, you don't see how a certain amount of IS required would negate the fact that it is 'easier' to obtain, though at a much higher time required? You put in harder work (by your standards) in a shorter time. If someone puts in less 'work' (by your standards) over a much greater time...give me an actual logical reason why it shouldn't be rewarded the same. Please factor in the health of the game and the community while you're at it.

Already done, not going to continue to explain the bloody obvious to you.

Because you choose to put more into it doesn't make you better than anyone.

No (and I didn't say that, but there's you putting words into my mouth so that you can have something to respond with ) but because someone puts more in, they should get more out. Sorry I lied above, seems I am actually continuing to explain the bloody obvious.

And that's what it boils down to. The time you invest out of your real life. That's what should be rewarded in all of these games. A lot of games are starting to follow that trend. Rift already does it somewhat. Increasing the magnitude of that wouldn't do anything wrong.

No you shouldn't. It matters what you do with your time, else someone pass me a shitload of plat and gear for sitting in Tempest Bay or running around in circles please. And no games reward you for time spent, there is no such trend, RIFT is just finding new things for you to do and reward you.

At the end of the day if raiding is such an easy path, take it, if not accept that if the IS world gear is as good as it needs to be given the effort involved in obtaining it. Don't like it, take it up with Trion.

[RoninaThorstone]

SWTOR has 20 servers, about half have light pop, the rest have standard. They admitted having less than 1 million, more than 500k before going F2P. Haven't read much recently on it, but that seems pretty small. Especially when you consider that Trion just upgrade it's servers to handle more people. I doubt those servers in SWTOR hold more people than a Rift server.

LOTRO has 29 servers. Again, the game is older than Rift so I doubt it's server contain as many people, especially not concurrently. Is it more profitable than when it was a sub, sure, probably. Does it get updates anywhere near as often or as near as big as Rift. Doubtful. I don't want to see Rift become that.

I want to move on, but it is extremely slow here at work and I have nothing better to do.

Also, if they want to sell costume pieces, go ahead, on top of the sub. People that want that pointless crap can buy it and I can chuckle at them every time I see it in game.

Well, since you have nothing better to do, go find proof of your claims. :P

What about dimensional items? How do you feel about selling those?

---------- Post added 2013-01-25 at 04:11 PM ----------

At the end of the day if raiding is such an easy path, take it, if not accept that if the IS world gear is as good as it needs to be given the effort involved in obtaining it. Don't like it, take it up with Trion.

Don't mean to butt in but that's not exactly the issue. Some people might be willing to invest a lot of time / effort in to the game but be unable to raid due to any number of reasons.


(Also, just so it's clear, I don't really care that much about the IS/mark/raid thing as the current MMO loot system isn't my ideal. But nonetheless, its worth debating.)

[Lathais]

Well, since you have nothing better to do, go find proof of your claims. :P

What about dimensional items? How do you feel about selling those?

Because there is no way to give you proof that Rift is larger and more profitable than those games, other than the speed at which they release content compared to those games. I cannot pull those numbers out of my ass.

Yeah, cosmetic shit is ok, on top of a sub, if it does not affect speed and quality of content release, which it eventually would.

Anyway, not even Puremallace annoyed me enough to earn an ignore, I actually find him amusing at times, however, I just added the first 3 people ever to my ignore list. That is saying a lot as the only people, even in WoW, that ever earned their way on my ignore list were gold spammers.