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  1. #301
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    snip for size
    I agree that they didn't really make radical changes, but it's normal imo. Taking away things isn't just leaving them out though, the first chairs with 1 leg were revolutionary, sure it still used the same mechanic and so on but the idea of it is great.
    Just saying "they only took X away so it's not a revolution" comes up a bit short. If this is the case then why don't popular mmo's use the same rules, it should be quite simple.

    From my perspective you're sort of saying, if you add a goalie to american football you have normal football, very poor example but it's sort of hard to find a 1/1 correlation in real sports

    Choosing not to raid = selling yourself short. "content" in wow greatly comes down to raids(changes to difficulties and tiered difficulties prove this), this means that you sort of do get pushed into scheduling for play, night guilds exist for a reason(or join a guild in another timezone, very popular in Europe).

    I found GW1 to be a lot more innovative than GW2. To me it feels like they focused way to much on a "casual" play style. So it turned into a jack of all trades master of none sort of thing.

    The lack of punishing down-scaling comes in here. To me if you downscale to lvl 40 you should lose all major traits etc I realize that this increases difficulty since all of a sudden you're no longer "tuned" the way you were but your skill should make up for it now. Same for skills. If you're playing in a < lvl 30zone your elite shouldn't be active etc.

  2. #302
    Titan draykorinee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maarius View Post
    Either you have never played GW2 or you are just a troll, the standout-features are pretty obvious.


    -) from the first minute you meet other people you experience why GW2 is different: it's truely cooperative. You can't grief other players, instead you are happy to meet other players. No kill-stealing, loot for everyone who participates, no ressource-stealing, no need of grouping outside of instances,...
    On the flip side when players arent active some DEs are borederline impossible making 'cooperation' a requirement. The game being truly co-operative is a bit of a fallacy with the only cooperation being that you run around next to each other not getting in each others way, most of the time you could quite easily just be followed by autobots communication is that scarce. Its still something that all mmo's need to implement, just this morning doing my dailies I was frustrated by multiple kill steals it is something that has no place in MMO's, but GW2 is definitely not a truly co-op game, and in fact some quests have item pick ups that once picked up dissapear thus rendering the 'item' stealing point moot because it still exists in places, but im nit picking.

    -) not being forced to play on scedules since there are no 10-25man raids which are not fun to organize. Instead you play with dozen of people in the open world and can leave anytime you want - events scale back to the number of players participating
    I spent the first 3 years and a few subsequent never playing on a schedule because you dont need to at all. I dont know why organising raid teams is not fun, as a raid leader I love organising people and making sure everyone is up to date with tactics/add ons gear etc. Removing something that offers organised large scale PvE and not replacing it is not good design imo.

    -) the world grows larger the longer you play - not shrinks to a few lv.80 zones you have available in other games. You can go back to lowie-zones and events still reward you with good karma and loot for your level. You get scaled back to the level of the zone and can't one-shot everything = griefing, not possible.
    Downscalling is a great idea but still poorly implemented, whereby the challenge just disappears when youre 10 levels above the zone your in.
    [/QUOTE]

    However, its pretty obvious the difference between GW2 and other mmos, unfortunately most of them are poorly implemented or just not particularly revolutionary or interesting.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-26 at 03:46 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Meledelion View Post
    Choosing not to raid = selling yourself short. "content" in wow greatly comes down to raids(changes to difficulties and tiered difficulties prove this), this means that you sort of do get pushed into scheduling for play, night guilds exist for a reason(or join a guild in another timezone, very popular in Europe).
    No because the changes you highlight as proof of it selling yourself short means we have LFR, we have 130 active accounts in our guild only 20 of them raid, its been proven time and a gain that the vast majority that play wow do not attend a regular raid, you never get pushed in to a raid schedule to see all the content in wow.

  3. #303
    Quote Originally Posted by draykorinee View Post
    No because the changes you highlight as proof of it selling yourself short means we have LFR, we have 130 active accounts in our guild only 20 of them raid, its been proven time and a gain that the vast majority that play wow do not attend a regular raid, you never get pushed in to a raid schedule to see all the content in wow.
    LFR being introduced is proof that there was/is a scheduling necessity. LFR was introduced so people who don't play/can't dedicate a certain time still get to see the content.
    The people who don't raid do what exactly? Dailies, AH, farm, lvl alts, hunt achievements? None of those things "bind" them to WoW, you can take those 110 people transfer them to eve, rift, swtor,gw2,gw1, farmville, the sims,... and they'd still be happy, since they're not after "content". T

    he only "content" wow brings are raids, if you're going to sell wow to a friend of yours who doesn't know it what is your argument? Mine was "dude there's these big boss fights where you go in with 24 other people and you have to avoid stuff etc to kill, yada yada yadaaa". I doubt you'd tell them "well you can go gather plants and then you can make them into potions which you can then sell on the ah so you get money, yada yada yadaaa". People might find that part fun but that's not a key-factor.

  4. #304
    Titan draykorinee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meledelion View Post
    LFR being introduced is proof that there was/is a scheduling necessity. LFR was introduced so people who don't play/can't dedicate a certain time still get to see the content.
    The people who don't raid do what exactly? Dailies, AH, farm, lvl alts, hunt achievements? None of those things "bind" them to WoW, you can take those 110 people transfer them to eve, rift, swtor,gw2,gw1, farmville, the sims,... and they'd still be happy, since they're not after "content". T

    he only "content" wow brings are raids, if you're going to sell wow to a friend of yours who doesn't know it what is your argument? Mine was "dude there's these big boss fights where you go in with 24 other people and you have to avoid stuff etc to kill, yada yada yadaaa". I doubt you'd tell them "well you can go gather plants and then you can make them into potions which you can then sell on the ah so you get money, yada yada yadaaa". People might find that part fun but that's not a key-factor.
    Id probably not recommend my friend ever got in to raid, its too much of a time commitment :P TBH im going to back out of the wow discussion its not the right place but I understand where youre coming from just dont necessarly agree.

  5. #305
    Quote Originally Posted by Maarius View Post
    -) you don't depend on tanks and healers in dungeons.

    -) from the first minute you meet other people you experience why GW2 is different: it's truely cooperative.

    -) not being forced to play on schedules since there are no 10-25man raids which are not fun to organize. Instead you play with dozen of people in the open world and can leave anytime you want - events scale back to the number of players participating

    -) the world grows larger the longer you play - not shrinks to a few lv.80 zones you have available in other games.
    Just to be fair, other successful MMOs have had and currently do have all the aspect mentioned in those bullet points.

    I do think the game is rather fantastic fun. But like downscaling, no hard trinity, action gameplay rather than stat gameplay, etc-- that has been in MMOs not called World of Warcraft for years & years.

  6. #306
    Quote Originally Posted by draykorinee View Post
    Id probably not recommend my friend ever got in to raid, its too much of a time commitment :P TBH im going to back out of the wow discussion its not the right place but I understand where youre coming from just dont necessarly agree.
    Nice attitude, kudos for leaving in a friendly way. I'll add that I personally also understand where you are coming from

    edit: I'm not being sarcastic, I really like how we've "parted". Frigin writing doesn't do justice to how you're saying things

  7. #307
    Quote Originally Posted by Meledelion View Post
    Nice attitude, kudos for leaving in a friendly way. I'll add that I personally also understand where you are coming from

    edit: I'm not being sarcastic, I really like how we've "parted". Frigin writing doesn't do justice to how you're saying things
    make a youtube channel, you'd be surprised how nice it is to say what you like without the threat of being banned because of videogame abuse lol

  8. #308
    I don't plan on making a YT channel, I was thinking about making one regarding min-maxing in GW2 but I doubt there's an audience for that and I would only attract haters who'd make fun of my accent (English isn't my first language, and I've played COD for quite some time so my accent is something people try to troll me with, so I'm aware of having one).
    Also I don't think I'm significantly better at GW2 than anyone else. I'm probably just better at theorizing and optimizing groups/toons.
    In short, not enough people in GW2 care about the things which interest me or I would find worthwhile to put 2h+ of effort into.

  9. #309
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Just to be fair, other successful MMOs have had and currently do have all the aspect mentioned in those bullet points.

    I do think the game is rather fantastic fun. But like downscaling, no hard trinity, action gameplay rather than stat gameplay, etc-- that has been in MMOs not called World of Warcraft for years & years.
    now you got me interested, which games are you talking about? Never heard of those.

  10. #310
    Quote Originally Posted by Maarius View Post
    now you got me interested, which games are you talking about? Never heard of those.
    DDO, DCUO, City of Heroes, Ashron's Call, Rift, Everquest, Everquest 2, Aion, Vindictus, AOC, Fallen Earth, Shadowbane, Vanguard, FF11. All those had singular or multiple aspects of the features you listed as apart in GW2.

    What you should have said was GW2 has all of those aspects in one package, so to speak. For example, while EQ has level downscaling, Rift no mob tagging and AC no hard trinity-- Guild Wars 2 has all of those features. Whereas there is mob tagging in EQ, hard trinity in Rift and no downscaling in AC.

    GW2 is remarkable in that it brought a lot of old or existing MMO concepts together in a modern context; casual, action orientated, streamlined gameplay which is non-punitive.

  11. #311
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    GW2 is remarkable in that it brought a lot of old or existing MMO concepts together in a modern context; casual, action orientated, streamlined gameplay which is non-punitive.
    Exactly, and this is what is so "renovating".
    I like GW2 due to the selection they made being close(r) to the selection I would make. Sure there are things I would(n't) have picked from other games but this is the closest fit.

    This is also what it comes down to for everyone trying to decide whether or not a(ny) game is "worth it". Do your research,make a +/- list for the game you're quitting/no longer interested in and do the same for the game you're interested in playing.

    Now add values to each point. EG: "I like the friends I have in game X", that to me is 3/10, "tier gears" that's 0/10, "Raids" 7/10,... and so on naturally the game you're wanting to quit/quit should be below 5/10. If the other game isn't 5/10 don't bother.
    (it's better to look at mechanics than friends etc but I had to give examples )

  12. #312
    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteRetro View Post
    im beyond taking the time -snip-.
    Sure doesn't look like it. We are aware of the issues regardless of your finger pointing or not. And regardless of our view or not with good/bads it's a matter of personal preference as well. Which you seem to need to argue about. All the "facts" you point are for the most part a cranky poster versus the PR, I mean how much does marketing affect people? I know what they said, I see what they did and I know what can/can't be real. The only difference here is that you seemed to have believed what they said and got mad to see the reality. I know you didn't believe and I understand a lot of people were treating the game as the fourth coming of golden puppy. The game has launch people saw reality and that's it, the ones who actually bought the whole marketing fluffyness were disappointed and moved on, you on the other hand remain here screaming to the ones who, no matter reality/marketing or whatever else still enjoy the game. You only speak harsh truths in a fantasy world which is just disgusting to watch and read.

    Diminishing Returns haven't been a problem since forever and yet you keep bringing it up. Cash shop can be bought with in-game gold. I could counter precisely every point you shit out of your mouth. No it wasn't a guideline, just marketing. Your conception about how grindy and how gated content are is just to show how you don't know much of what you talk. Sure it was "surprising" but it's true that it didn't change the game in anything pretty much to anyone (Much more like "OMG WHAT NOW?" and complains whether to real true changes in-game), I will agree with you on half of that once we are maybe 12 months from now and I see that it's going the same path.

    I don't care if you care. But saddly the Gw1 vet such as yourself only proves one thing with all this. The fact that you are the one that ends up looking like the kiddy... Honestly I too thought myself that gw2 could be a bit more like gw1 but that didn't stop me from liking the game as it is.

    I think on that video what sets them apart is the great song on the back, trully. It just enhances the grandeur of the game, must be what made people go nuts on it.

    Anyhow. It's you opinion and more than once we heard it. For that we won't ban you really, but it's so far from facts that it's not even cute anymore.

  13. #313
    Quote Originally Posted by Meledelion View Post
    The lack of punishing down-scaling comes in here. To me if you downscale to lvl 40 you should lose all major traits etc I realize that this increases difficulty since all of a sudden you're no longer "tuned" the way you were but your skill should make up for it now. Same for skills. If you're playing in a < lvl 30zone your elite shouldn't be active etc.
    It could also be a means of appeasing those who don't like being down leveled. At least you still have your traits, elite skills, and from what I've seen having exotics+ in lower level zones does make a big difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by Meledelion View Post
    The only "content" wow brings are raids, if you're going to sell wow to a friend of yours who doesn't know it what is your argument? Mine was "dude there's these big boss fights where you go in with 24 other people and you have to avoid stuff etc to kill, yada yada yadaaa". I doubt you'd tell them "well you can go gather plants and then you can make them into potions which you can then sell on the ah so you get money, yada yada yadaaa". People might find that part fun but that's not a key-factor.
    Raids were never a selling point of mine whenever I suggested WoW to anyone. I also only raided maybe a total of 1-2 years at best (not consecutively) out of the 6 that I played. However, I'm an unabashed altoholic (had 85s on both factions) and a world explorer, so for me it wasn't too difficult to find other things to do.

  14. #314
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    GW2 is remarkable in that it brought a lot of old or existing MMO concepts together in a modern context; casual, action orientated, streamlined gameplay which is non-punitive.
    kinda reminds me what was said of wow (though it actually applies to most bliz games : picking a lot of good concepts elsewhere, usually little to no innovation + good packaging/marketing ) when vanilla came out.

  15. #315
    Quote Originally Posted by sacrypheyes View Post
    kinda reminds me what was said of wow (though it actually applies to most bliz games : picking a lot of good concepts elsewhere, usually little to no innovation + good packaging/marketing ) when vanilla came out.
    The part about good packaging and marketing is true. WoW did also streamline abstract/obtuse systems of older MMOs into far more accessible variants. That is the great innovation [such as it was] of Warcraft, it brought MMOs to a truly mass market*.

    Also the speed of Warcraft was a revelation at the time. The game [WoW] moved and reacted at a pace simply unprecedented in the genre.

    Don't think Anarchy Online or Vanguard would have ever brought MMOs to the mainstream as Blizzard did. ;p

    I do see GW2 as a logical extension of MMOs aimed at the mass market however. If WoW is the start of "new" MMOs, GW2 might be in retrospect the start of new "new" MMOs.

    Time will tell.


    * Not saying WoW is my type of game- it isn't. Meh if other people enjoy it/don't care. Credit where it is due and all that stuff.
    Last edited by Fencers; 2013-01-27 at 06:27 AM.

  16. #316
    Deleted
    For me GW2 is the perfect MMO, just to jump in for an hour after dinner.

    I usually just do the daily during the week, and play more during the weekend.
    I like the idea behind the dialy quest, you complete it by playing the game, killing random mobs, doing events, doing the storymode and in the end lots of Karma.

    The downscaling can be anoying, but to be honest, when you are a level 30 being downleveled to level 5 and you have masterworks gear, you never get killed.

    The main reason however is that I can play it with my girlfriend and never hopelessly outlevel her thanks to downscaling in the zones. We tried to play WoW together, but I always outleveled her because she plays less then me, and she said that she felt like a burden on my enjoyment of the game.

  17. #317
    Quote Originally Posted by Targetter View Post
    The main reason however is that I can play it with my girlfriend and never hopelessly outlevel her thanks to downscaling in the zones. We tried to play WoW together, but I always outleveled her because she plays less then me, and she said that she felt like a burden on my enjoyment of the game.
    This is the same situation for me too. My bf works 50-60 hours a week sometimes and doesn't have the same amount of free time I do to play, so in previous games we've had to always keep a dedicated pair of characters to play together or else I'll end up leaving him in the dust. In GW2 we can play whoever we want together. Since we're both altoholics that's actually a big deal for us.

  18. #318
    Quote Originally Posted by Zilong View Post
    Diminishing Returns haven't been a problem since forever and yet you keep bringing it up.
    Hmmm we must not be playing the same game. Are we talking about GW1 or something? The Guild Wars where they actually removed DR instead of buffing it every patch?

  19. #319
    Quote Originally Posted by Drakhar View Post
    Hmmm we must not be playing the same game. Are we talking about GW1 or something? The Guild Wars where they actually removed DR instead of buffing it every patch?
    They removed DR in gw1? When did they do this afaik AFC is still active...

  20. #320
    Quote Originally Posted by Meledelion View Post
    They removed DR in gw1? When did they do this afaik AFC is still active...
    CBA to find it, I remember they patched out the DR (it used to give you a warning message to boot!) from entering/exiting a zone too many times in a short period of time. I don't even think farming minos/griffons/whatever near the desert outposts was even all that profitable at that point, but that's where I remember people abusing it and bitching about DR. Goddamn wammos.

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