Walmart hiring policy change.....

[Spectral]

I called an attitude supporting Wal-Mart employee persecution as comparable to fascism. Please show me where I mentioned the Holocaust.

I'm referring to this (emphasis mine):

I'm suggesting anybody that supports social control and rejects social justice is a fascist, and that includes a rampant belief in capitalism by scapegoating an innocent group.

I listed all the things fascists in Italy and Germany did.

I assumed that this was a reference to the treatment of Jews. Were you referring to the scapegoating of some other innocents?

Pretty much. Fascism doesn't carry any necessarily negative undertones, it's merely a statement of what one believes level of government control and intrusiveness is acceptable.

Yet I'm being told that less government control is like fascism. This is nonsensical, it's a classic, "no you!" argument.

[Elegiac]

Yet I'm being told that less government control is like fascism. This is nonsensical, it's a classic, "no you!" argument.

I think what he means (this is my interpretation, mind you) is that government control is the mitigating factor when it comes to worker exploitation, and that by supporting a curtailing of government intervention you are being fascist as regards Wal-Mart's level of control over its employees.

While it could be phrased better, I happen to agree.

[Zhangfei]

I'm referring to this (emphasis mine):

Ah I see the confusion, but the Nazis didn't just "mistreat" the Jews. They pretty much savaged anyone not middle class German or above in various social control ways and rejecting social justice.

Yet I'm being told that less government control is like fascism.

There was less government control in fascism for certain things, such as successful businesses where workers' rights were trampled.

[Spectral]

I make $7.45 an hour plus an extra 50 cents for working overnight so I make a grand total of $7.95 an hour. Tell me, what year were you making $9 an hour so I can figure out what it would be nowadays after taking into account inflation.

As mentioned, it wasn't actually $9 an hour, since I was working quite a bit more than 40 hours a week. That was in 2003, possibly 2004 as well, but I think I got a slight bump then.

But really, it's just not that hard to find positions that pay more than $7.95. Everyone I know with even the tiniest bit of ambition quickly moves from one of the lowest wage positions into a $9-10 an hour position.

---------- Post added 2013-01-27 at 10:51 AM ----------

Ah I see the confusion, but the Nazis didn't just "mistreat" the Jews. They pretty much savaged anyone not middle class German or above in various social control ways and rejecting social justice.

That's true as far as it goes; I don't see it as a central element of fascism in the same way that extreme totalitarianism is. Let's set Germany aside, since their version of fascism was predicated much more heavily on racism and hatred than what was instituted in Italy. Italian fascism, to the best of my understanding (which I admit is thin) was predicated on eliminating classism, favoring idealization of production.

I assume none of us in this thread subscribe to the virulently racist ideas espoused by 1920s and 1930s European fascist nations, but the sentiment that corporations must do what's right for employees and the nations seems quite consistent with Mussolini's fascism to me.

There was less government control in fascism for certain things, such as successful businesses where workers' rights were trampled.

I don't think this is true. I may be misinformed, but I'm under the impression that fascist governments tended towards heavy control over businesses.

---------- Post added 2013-01-27 at 10:52 AM ----------

I think what he means (this is my interpretation, mind you) is that government control is the mitigating factor when it comes to worker exploitation, and that by supporting a curtailing of government intervention you are being fascist as regards Wal-Mart's level of control over its employees.

While it could be phrased better, I happen to agree.

The part where I've repeatedly stated that the remedy is for society to provide basic health care and reasonable living standards for everyone has no bearing on this? That's plainly not fascist, at all. In this context, fascist is merely being substituted for "bad".

[Fugus]

As mentioned, it wasn't actually $9 an hour, since I was working quite a bit more than 40 hours a week. That was in 2003, possibly 2004 as well, but I think I got a slight bump then.

But really, it's just not that hard to find positions that pay more than $7.95. Everyone I know with even the tiniest bit of ambition quickly moves from one of the lowest wage positions into a $9-10 an hour position.

Depends on the area unfortunately. You can take over a year to get a $10 an hour job, they actually consider that decent pay compared to most jobs out here around now with the exception of working on the military base.

I know 1 person who got a job working for $10 an hour in the past year and they were putting in over 100 applications a day for months between online and in person but it still came down to her bumping into a friend they hadn't seen in years who owned a business and was willing to hire. Personally hoping on a friend of mine to talk to his boss to try and get me on doing autoglass with them for about $10-12 an hour starting. Hoping they can get some pull but not holding my breath on it.

I honestly wish it wasn't not hard to find positions that pay more than $8 an hour, but that is really subjective on where you live. This is also a place where all the technical jobs want to hire with previous experience but none are willing to train on the job for anything. Actually had trouble getting on working for the BestBuy geek squad even though when I was running my own place with my friend they used to send what they couldn't fix to us. Was actually a little retarded the stuff they couldn't fix too....

[Zhangfei]

That's true as far as it goes; I don't see it as a central element of fascism in the same way that extreme totalitarianism is. Let's set Germany aside, since their version of fascism was predicated much more heavily on racism and hatred than what was instituted in Italy. Italian fascism, to the best of my understanding (which I admit is thin) was predicated on eliminating classism, favoring idealization of production.

I assume none of us in this thread subscribe to the virulently racist ideas espoused by 1920s and 1930s European fascist nations, but the sentiment that corporations must do what's right for employees and the nations seems quite consistent with Mussolini's fascism to me.

I don't know where you get the second part from - I'm talking about justice for society and not justice for the state, that's a massive difference. The few companies that fascists invested heavily in (but rarely controlled. State capitalism is a cornerstone of fascism) usually benefitted their social policies or militaristic ideals.

However, they generally did not control businesses, they controlled laws defining what businesses could do - and if a business was successful and helped their aims, they were more than happy to remove individual rights to maximise profit and productivity (I mean, look what they did to "undesireables!")

This support of productivity and profit over the rights of people and social justice is, to me, the definition of fascism and something I consider a developing and growing philosophy in America. People are always more important than businesses, and let me be very specific here, in the USA today the social contract has developed to expecting businesses to provide certain services that in other countries let the state deal with. When those businesses break that social contract to squeeze out more money and people defend it, I consider that an inheritance of fascist state capitalism (what's best for the state is what's best for business; individuals are to blame rather than the society that produces them.)

I am very aware you wish for a more European style healthcare system. I am not calling you a fascist. I am saying your arguments defending business makes me think of fascist beliefs.

[Deleted]

How is actual experience on the ground ever "unnecessary"?

Because I don't think visiting small town America means you get a good grasp about the economy of small town america.

But it's immoral and financially unsuitable.

Making the job contract less attractive isn't immoral at all. "Financially unsuitable", for whom?

Also, Social Justice is the most bullshit term I've ever heard. Social Justice = Society should work the way I want it to. And lastly, in general capitalism and business is based on voluntary exchange between parties. There are certain laws that unfortunately obfuscate this, but especially in the case of Walmart it's mostly voluntary for everyone. There's very little coercion from the state nor the business, as long as everyone is aware of the terms of employment.

Your understanding of "rights" seems a bit muddled as well, Zhangfei.

[theredviola]

Blame the government.

No, blame the greedy, amoral health insurance companies that need regulation which is then twisted and perverted by the government because rule No.1 in DC is "disagree with the black guy."

[Deleted]

No, blame the greedy, amoral health insurance companies that need regulation which is then twisted and perverted by the government because rule No.1 in DC is "disagree with the black guy."

Yeah because you're not greedy at all?

[Zhangfei]

Because I don't think visiting small town America means you get a good grasp about the economy of small town america.

I do. I prefer evidence to idealism.

Rest is blah ivory tower theory over reality.

[Deleted]

Yeah because you're not greedy at all?

Wanting a decent standard of living is not being greedy. If you work at Walmart, you should be able to have a decent payment and social benefits, because you work for your money.
It may be a low-end job, but some people seem to forget that you also need people working shitty jobs, working a cheap job is not a reason to not get social benefits, especially not so the share holders and ceo's can put another digit on their bankaccount.

[Deleted]

I do. I prefer evidence to idealism.
Rest is blah ivory tower theory over reality.

I think it's a bit better to gather evidence from statistical databases than by interviewing a couple people.

---------- Post added 2013-01-27 at 06:27 PM ----------

Wanting a decent standard of living is not being greedy. If you work at Walmart, you should be able to have a decent payment and social benefits, because you work for your money.
It may be a low-end job, but some people seem to forget that you also need people working shitty jobs, working a cheap job is not a reason to not get social benefits, especially not so the share holders and ceo's can put another digit on their bankaccount.

You already have a decent standard of living. You're most likely in the top 10% of world population in terms of standard of living. Why are you being greedy and wanting more, when those in developing countries need it more than you do?

Yes, ideally everyone should have unlimited amounts of everything, but back in the real world that's not how it works. Some jobs pay less than others because of supply and demand, that simple.

[Wells]

While I'm all for actual evidence your lack of exposure to american systems is pretty frequently evident in your posts.

[Deleted]

While I'm all for actual evidence your lack of exposure to american systems is pretty frequently evident in your posts.

Yeah, my Finnish public education is certainly to an advantage.

[Fugus]

I think it's a bit better to gather evidence from statistical databases than by interviewing a couple people.

---------- Post added 2013-01-27 at 06:27 PM ----------

You already have a decent standard of living. You're most likely in the top 10% of world population in terms of standard of living. Why are you being greedy and wanting more, when those in developing countries need it more than you do?

Yes, ideally everyone should have unlimited amounts of everything, but back in the real world that's not how it works. Some jobs pay less than others because of supply and demand, that simple.

http://nationranking.files.wordpress...-rankings1.png

As of 2011, we are ranked 31st in average Quality of Living.

Not a case of us being greedy, it is a case of the top being TOO greedy and taking away from the employees to an unfair extreme.

Like we have said, we aren't asking to live like kings, we are asking for a paycheck and benefits we can actually support ourselves off of. We aren't trying to live like Bill Gates, but we aren't trying to be forced to live like slaves as the guys running the show seem to be pushing us to where our only option is choosing who we want be our master.

[Deleted]

http://nationranking.files.wordpress...-rankings1.png

As of 2011, we are ranked 31st in average Quality of Living.

Not a case of us being greedy, it is a case of the top being TOO greedy and taking away from the employees to an unfair extreme.

Like we have said, we aren't asking to live like kings, we are asking for a paycheck and benefits we can actually support ourselves off of. We aren't trying to live like Bill Gates, but we aren't trying to be forced to live like slaves as the guys running the show seem to be pushing us to where our only option is choosing who we want be our master.

From the perspective of citizens from developing nations you already live like kings and you're greedy. Pretty much everyone is greedy.

And this isn't an "us vs. them" case. You clearly don't understand how supply and demand works. The employers do not control how much employees are paid, otherwise they'd pay you nothing. They're just as vurnerable to market forces as anyone else is.

[chadwix]

Like we have said, we aren't asking to live like kings, we are asking for a paycheck and benefits we can actually support ourselves off of. We aren't trying to live like Bill Gates, but we aren't trying to be forced to live like slaves as the guys running the show seem to be pushing us to where our only option is choosing who we want be our master.

Maybe time to find another job and then realize you didnt have it so bad at walmart. Sounds like your living above your means if you have consistent work and still cant make ends meet. Drop the $5 coffee's and other stuff you have convinced yourself that you deserve.

You attitude is exactly why people used to start their own businesses, unfortunately thats no longer possible under obama. Get a gov job or work at a major corporation, those are the employment choices today.

[Wells]

You attitude is exactly why people used to start their own businesses, unfortunately thats no longer possible under obama.

Its true, Obama has outlawed new businesses.

[Arlon]

From the perspective of citizens from developing nations you already live like kings and you're greedy. Pretty much everyone is greedy.

And this isn't an "us vs. them" case. You clearly don't understand how supply and demand works. The employers do not control how much employees are paid, otherwise they'd pay you nothing. They're just as vurnerable to market forces as anyone else is.

I really can´t take this post seriosly. Im sure you understand that a developed nation should be judged by a developed nations standarts, you also seem educated enough to understand the the buying power is not exactly very high with such salaries, certainly not nearly enough to finance the quality of life one might get from ex Finland. I find his claims justified. With such a salary, you can very much live in box when it comes to US.(Unless supported by family,friends etc)

Supply and demand, in this case, does not work. Walmart has a high demand and only pay enough wages to stay competative between other such businesses on the pay scale, at the risk of losing employees. Supply and demand has nothing relevant to do with this.

[chadwix]

Its true, Obama has outlawed new businesses.

If you understood economics you would see the profit margin is no longer worth the risk. No buying power, no tax breaks and mandated health care for your employee's, good luck competing with walmart and amazon, lmao.