Equality <> justice/fairness

[Seanali]

I prefer providing for equal possibilities rather then providing for equal outcomes.

Justice is as said in the quoted post equal oportunities for everyone not equal outcome(rewards).
Look at it this way is it justice if you work 8 hours a day and get 20$ and then I come and do exactly the same work for 30 mins and also get 20$?
Ofc it is not justice.

If everyone gets same rewards than people will stop giving effort and than those who can make the world better wont care about it and wont give effort in making it better because their reward will be the same as for the guy who drinks beer all day ad farts.

[Freedom]

Something can be fair and unjust (Communism as practice by humans, or giving all whiners what they want be they LFR, N or H whiners) and something can be just and unfair (life - it may not be right that you get the short end of the stick sometimes or almost all the time but everyone gets their own short end of different sticks and are screwed over EQUALLY in different ways).

I'm speking from a "decent to good raider who has never killed H endboss due to time/skill (honestly) issues" here as well, and while part of me would like H T14 to be faceroll by now due to stacking debuffs, most of me doesn't care and likes the current paradigm.

[Valanna]

COmparing LFR raiders to the handicapped is rather despicable. And I know, its all about gear gear gear. How isn't the first picture fair? They are treating everyone the same. The reason height isn't relevant is simple: Anyone in WoW has the same choice and opportunity. The only real difference between players is how much they choose to commit and work to get rewards. Thats it.

Agreed, very insulting to the handicapped community.

[Austilias]

COmparing LFR raiders to the handicapped is rather despicable. And I know, its all about gear gear gear. How isn't the first picture fair? They are treating everyone the same. The reason height isn't relevant is simple: Anyone in WoW has the same choice and opportunity. The only real difference between players is how much they choose to commit and work to get rewards. Thats it.

All that needs to be said really. Every WoW player has an equal opportunity in the game. They pay their subscription fee, they get access to the server, game world, and means by which to make their character; just like every other WoW player ever. That they do not make the most of this opportunity is no excuse to penalize those who do, as has been par for the course with Blizzard lately.

[velde046]

COmparing LFR raiders to the handicapped is rather despicable. And I know, its all about gear gear gear. How isn't the first picture fair? They are treating everyone the same. The reason height isn't relevant is simple: Anyone in WoW has the same choice and opportunity. The only real difference between players is how much they choose to commit and work to get rewards. Thats it.

I am not comparing LFR to handicapped, I am merely making the point that not everyone has the same qualifications/time available, meaning not everybody is created equal.... And that's why not everybody has the same choice or opportunity in the game, as they have in real life... Not everybody has the time to be a cutting edge raider, yet still they deserve to see the content in my opinion.
Imagine the crates being the 30% buff in ICC.... if the tall guy can do it without the crate he can choose to do so, but is there any harm in giving the crate to someone who needs it then? Now what we see is the tall guy belittling the small guy and saying hey, we are equal it's your fault you can't see it, while the fact is that they are not equal, the ground is but they are not.

It's kind of an emancipation thing in some way, these days we say men and women are equal, yet we still have lots of jobs where we don't see any women and we have separated them in sports too? Let's just have mixed competitions then, since they are equal?

---------- Post added 2013-01-28 at 04:00 PM ----------

Justice is as said in the quoted post equal oportunities for everyone not equal outcome(rewards).
Look at it this way is it justice if you work 8 hours a day and get 20$ and then I come and do exactly the same work for 30 mins and also get 20$?
Ofc it is not justice.

The trouble is that people that make that bigger amount of money will belittle the 'small guy' by saying 'Hey I work hard for my money'. As if the other person is not working hard and making an effort to get where you are... Lucky thing is that in the game (as opposed to real life) there are options to make it better for the small guy without negatively affecting the tall guy.... and why would one object to that? If a person is making a real effort I don't see any problem with that.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

I am not comparing LFR to handicapped, I am merely making the point that not everyone has the same qualifications/time available, meaning not everybody is created equal.... And that's why not everybody has the same choice or opportunity in the game, as they have in real life... Not everybody has the time to be a cutting edge raider, yet still they deserve to see the content in my opinion.
Imagine the crates being the 30% buff in ICC.... if the tall guy can do it without the crate he can choose to do so, but is there any harm in giving the crate to someone who needs it then? Now what we see is the tall guy belittling the small guy and saying hey, we are equal it's your fault you can't see it, while the fact is that they are not equal, the ground is but they are not.

It's kind of an emancipation thing in some way, these days we say men and women are equal, yet we still have lots of jobs where we don't see any women and we have separated them in sports too? Let's just have mixed competitions then, since they are equal?

Yes, they see the content via LFR. You DID in fact compare them to the handicapped, to illicit feelings of sympathy.

Everyone 100% has the same choice and opportunity. You may have more important things to do, but that means nothing. Yes, there is harm to this game when you dumb it down. It creates a horrible pattern you can see very obviously. It says "No, you don't need to get better." I am not belittling people with less time/skill, I want to belittle the entitled attitude of "I pay, I get what I want."

Equality is about treating everyone the same. What you are asking for is special treatment for specific people. Thats not equality, its just that: Special treatment. You should at least read story of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrison_Bergeron. Its a great story, and it has been reiterated into many shows/animes/movies etc. I think the first cartoon I remember embracing the idea is Reboot.

Equality = Being treated the same.

[Seanali]

I am not comparing LFR to handicapped, I am merely making the point that not everyone has the same qualifications/time available, meaning not everybody is created equal.... And that's why not everybody has the same choice or opportunity in the game, as they have in real life... Not everybody has the time to be a cutting edge raider, yet still they deserve to see the content in my opinion.
Imagine the crates being the 30% buff in ICC.... if the tall guy can do it without the crate he can choose to do so, but is there any harm in giving the crate to someone who needs it then? Now what we see is the tall guy belittling the small guy and saying hey, we are equal it's your fault you can't see it, while the fact is that they are not equal, the ground is but they are not.

It's kind of an emancipation thing in some way, these days we say men and women are equal, yet we still have lots of jobs where we don't see any women and we have separated them in sports too? Let's just have mixed competitions then, since they are equal?

Dude you are so wrong.
With the raiding if a small guy wants to see the content he has a small hole to see it called lfr, if he cant see above fence then there is no point in taking away tall guys box and punishing the tall guy.

And your men and women comparison, look at it this way if we put women in same match against men then they wont have equal oportunities and all sense of fairness and justice will be lost same goes for jobs, you cant put a lady in a posittion where men will do the job alot easyer and get promoted and she wont even have the oprtunity to proove that she can deliver same quality but slower and harder.

Sry for spelling im eating.

Oh and time you wasted here could have been used to learn more about the fight you have troubles progressing or learn 1 HC encounter to its full extent.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

The trouble is that people that make that bigger amount of money will belittle the 'small guy' by saying 'Hey I work hard for my money'. As if the other person is not working hard and making an effort to get where you are... Lucky thing is that in the game (as opposed to real life) there are options to make it better for the small guy without negatively affecting the tall guy.... and why would one object to that? If a person is making a real effort I don't see any problem with that.

No, LFR raiders in general do not work as hard as raiders in the hardcore difficulty. Just logging in isn't "work" or "effort."

[Orangetai420]

Ehhh something doesn't sit right for me.

Apples and oranges in my opinion. Watching a sports game and seeing content reserved for the most driven players is not the same thing.

What are you getting at here? You have LFR, you can see content. You want 2 crates so you can faceroll through heroic modes too? Is this about % nerfs over time like we had in DS?

What's your point?

[Freedom]

I'm thinking he wants massive rapid %debuffs like in DS. DS gave people a false sense of skill, and entitlement to clear everything because they paid their sub and put in time to raiding but not much effort aside from logging in and squeaking by. Much moreso than ICC did. I see a lot of 8/8H DS players who got Spine/Madness at 30% debuff struggling in T14 N/the easier heroics and whining about the increased difficulty. You could PUG 8/8HC DS if you had the achieve and gear (which I did not at the point I came back in late Cata, and only PUG'd DS) but good luck PUGging 12/12HC ICC 25 when it was current... people still fail at H LK hard at 90, and certainly at 85.

I think debuffs could be useful, either starting in T15 and at double the speed of DS's debuffs to make PUGing/alt/reroller/late starter catchup easier, or even during the tier but in 5% ---> 10%---> 15% max chunks spread further out. Please no massive mechanics nerfs like how they butchered T11 N and T12 N when they were winding down... I have never really seen the fun in working on a fight/fights hard then coming back 1 week later after massive nerfs like the end of BC nerfs, or the FL nerfs.

I quit right before the FL nerfs due to health issues, but if I had kept playing it would have felt very cheap to go faceroll fights that took my raidgroup a good while to get down and were annoying but in a fun way and felt rewarding to down. Almost getting something hard that then becomes faceroll easymode not because of personal/raid improvement but because Blizzard flipped a magical switch to make everything easier really cheapens getting the kill and part of you may feel like a scrub because you had to wait till FL nerfs to kill H Beth'tilac when you could have gotten her in 1-2 more lockouts pre-nerfs.

In your quest for self-esteem and making yourself feel good, you forget the things that you are actually good at, and fool yourself into thinking you are good at something that you are actually bad at, destroying part of your identity. That's what I thought of when I read the Harrison Bergerson story. Even trying to "cure" people of their "disabilities" is offensive to me - say I am blind. I could hear better than any other person who can see can, and feel by touch very well (studies back this up), and I'd be rightfully mad if someone tried to force everyone else to be blind or forced me to get my sight back. Forcing everyone else to be blind would be like having a debuff on a guild like vodka on Paragon, and giving those who are blind glasses would be like giving the guilds that can't get normal Stoneguard down a magic 1 shot button. Achievement means NOTHING if it is handed to you, or made too easy, and the adversity involved in killing something is what makes WoW raiding rewarding. Just look at how more hardcore mindset WoW players look at achievement dates when judging someone else's skill - a H Madness kill at 5, 10 or 15% debuff is way more impressive than killing H LK 25 at 85 or 90.

[Zaqwert]

Picture is bs for one simple reason.

Not everyone is entitled to the same OUTCOME.

You don't get to steal another guy's box if it's his and he earned it, even if you "need" it more than him. Get your own damn box.

[mistuhbull]

No, LFR raiders in general do not work as hard as raiders in the hardcore difficulty. Just logging in isn't "work" or "effort."

and they get lesser rewards

[Justignoreme]

more pertinent to the issue of Blizzard and game development than this "justice vs equality" nonsense.