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  1. #1001
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    I never made that argument. The argument was that if Demon Hunters were going to appear in the game, its more likely to be coming from the Warlock class instead of an entirely new class.



    Illidan was a magic user before he became a Demon Hunter. Just saying.

    Also Mistweavers are agile warriors who use INT gear.
    Well obviously, because it isn't likely that Demon Hunters are ever going to be a new class. That was decided the moment Blizzard gave warlocks Meta. My point was just that a theoretical new DH class would probably stack agility unless it also had a caster spec.

    Mistweavers are monks who have given up on dealing serious damage and focused their minds to the healing arts instead.
    This is actually a really good example, because they're monks, but by giving up their agility, they pretty much lose their offensive ability.

    It'd be the same with a DH class. They could use int, sure, but they'd basically be warlocks in Metamorphosis and lose their ability to deal damage by hitting things with glaives.
    Thus they would really be the Demon Hunters like Illidan, but warlocks who manipulate demonic and chaotic energy.

  2. #1002
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Sorry, but ignoring numerous similarities and saying the two aren't close together is an opinion. A fact is a universal truth.

    BTW, me saying they are close together is also an opinion.
    A wrong opinion. Of course they have similarites, but nothing beyond demon-based magic and one spell that isn't even like the one in WC3. Oh and a glyph that is called Glyph of Demon Hunting, that still doesn't turn the WL into a DH. People have pointed out before that the WL used to have Death Coil. No reason to not have a DK class. And people have used that as an argument against the class, the same way you use the Meta spell against a DH class. It is not an issue. You are just making it one.

    I don't think this will lead to anything, 50 pages of people making ideas and suggestions and arguments, that you basically just dismissed without any reason is enough for me.
    Last edited by mmocedbf46d113; 2013-01-28 at 09:56 PM.

  3. #1003
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    It's not about race class combo, it's that a Warlock is not a Demon Hunter. It would be like playing a Night Elf Priest and then switching spec to become a Paladin.
    Except that Paladins wear plate armor, and are knights.

    Let's try this; Demon Hunters are to Warlocks what Monks are to Priests.

    Which argument has been disproven? That DHs fight with glaives?
    That you can't convert SP to AP for the purposes of melee. Also Warlocks can already equip swords, so giving this proposed spec DW should't be a problem.

    There is no significant class overlap. It's one important spell and the Metamorphosis ingame is different from the original DH WC3 spell. What does lack of spec variety even mean? That there can be no 3 DH specs that distinguish themselves from each other enough to feel different? People have given countless examples.
    Its not just Metamorphosis. Its also Immolation aura, and developing demonic abilities independent of Warlocks. That's just the first class overlap. Others would be Warriors, Shaman (Enhance), Rogues, Hunters, and Death Knights. You're talking about a class that could potentially overlap with over half the classes in the game.

  4. #1004
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    I love all the people who tell me that Ghostcrawler's "question" was an invitation for discussion. He asked if the demon hunter niche was not already filled by those other classes in the same vein as someone asking "are apples not delicious?" Their intent is clear. They already believe that the Demon Hunter niche is already filled. If they haven't been convinced by the last 5-7 years of Demon Hunter implementation discussion, I don't think beating the dead horse is going to convince them any more today than it did so many years ago.

    I think Blizzard always encourages discussion, but his question makes it clear that their intentions with Demon Hunters are along the same vein as housing. "Hey, you guys can talk about it all day and we may implement it... someday."
    Last edited by Cthulhu 2020; 2013-01-28 at 09:44 PM.
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  5. #1005
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    A wrong opinion. Of course they have similarites, but nothing beyond demon-based magic and one spell that isn't even like the one in WC3. Oh and a glyph that is called Glyph of Demon Hunting, that still doesn't turn the WL into a DH. People have pointed out before that the WL used to have Death Coil. No reason to not have a DK class. And people have used that as an argument against the class, the same way you use the Meta spell against a DH class. It is not an issue. You are just making it one.
    It just happens to be a glyph that also turns you into a form that resembles Black Temple Illidan.

    No biggie.

  6. #1006
    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    A wrong opinion. Of course they have similarites, but nothing beyond demon-based magic and one spell that isn't even like the one in WC3. Oh and a glyph that is called Glyph of Demon Hunting, that still doesn't turn the WL into a DH. People have pointed out before that the WL used to have Death Coil. No reason to not have a DK class. And people have used that as an argument against the class, the same way you use the Meta spell against a DH class. It is not an issue. You are just making it one.

    I don't think this will lead to anything, 50 people making ideas and suggestions and arguments, that you basically just dismissed without any reason is enough for me.
    The Death Coil argument is a very very poor one.

    Even without Death Coil, Death knights were still a completely unique undead hero who can raise the undead and use dark anti-paladin auras.
    Literally everything about the Demon Hunter class is already take by other classes.

    What is a demon hunter? It's a warrior who has fused themselves with demonic energy in order to gain power.
    That's what Demonology's Meta is.

    Rather than comparing Demon Hunters to Death knights, here's a better scenario:

    Imagine Druids aren't in the game yet.
    Now, imagine trying to add druids to the game, when hunter's beast master spec is transforming into animals to use various aspects of those animals.
    And shamans heal with plants.
    And priests cast a nature based wrath spell.

    See the problem?
    There's no place for druids when the entirety of the class is already taken up by other classes.
    It's the same with Demon Hunters right now.

  7. #1007
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soratrox View Post
    Well obviously, because it isn't likely that Demon Hunters are ever going to be a new class. That was decided the moment Blizzard gave warlocks Meta. My point was just that a theoretical new DH class would probably stack agility unless it also had a caster spec.
    Well in this case I was discussing more of a DH spec than an entire class, with that spec coming from the Warlock class.

    Mistweavers are monks who have given up on dealing serious damage and focused their minds to the healing arts instead.
    This is actually a really good example, because they're monks, but by giving up their agility, they pretty much lose their offensive ability.
    Well to be fair, MWs are getting a significant damage boost in 5.2, so you're more than likely going to see their offensive abilities be more prevalent than earlier patches. I was using MWs more of an example of how you can use INT stats for melee damage purposes.

    It'd be the same with a DH class. They could use int, sure, but they'd basically be warlocks in Metamorphosis and lose their ability to deal damage by hitting things with glaives.
    Thus they would really be the Demon Hunters like Illidan, but warlocks who manipulate demonic and chaotic energy.
    Not necessarily. Remember, we're talking about DH being a spec of the Warlock class. Imagine a DH spec that still used INT cloth, but had a passive ability that converted the SP from their gear into AP when they performed melee abilities and auto-attacks. That passive would also take their spirit from items and change it to hit/expertise. The rest of the abilities would benefit from spell power, since they would be magic based. This is exactly what MWs do, but their spell power is used for healing instead of damaging spells. If the latter were the case, MWs would be a formidable damage spec.

    Thing is, Warlocks have the ability set that most closely matches what a Demon Hunter's non-melee ability set would be. Part of the reason I don't believe Blizzard would add an entire DH class is that Blizzard would pretty much have to make another Warlock class that is melee instead of ranged caster, and be careful not to repeat the same spells all over again while stretching it over 3 distinct specs.

    I just don't see that happening.

  8. #1008
    Immortal mistuhbull's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    A wrong opinion. Of course they have similarites, but nothing beyond demon-based magic and one spell that isn't even like the one in WC3. Oh and a glyph that is called Glyph of Demon Hunting, that still doesn't turn the WL into a DH. People have pointed out before that the WL used to have Death Coil. No reason to not have a DK class. And people have used that as an argument against the class, the same way you use the Meta spell against a DH class. It is not an issue. You are just making it one.

    I don't think this will lead to anything, 50 people making ideas and suggestions and arguments, that you basically just dismissed without any reason is enough for me.
    How many times must this be explained?

    Warlock Death Coil: Does damage, heals warlock, fears

    WC3 Death Coil:A coil of death that can damage an enemy living unit or heal a friendly undead unit.
    DK Death Coil in WoW: Fire a blast of unholy energy, causing (X + 51.4% * AP) Shadow damage to an enemy target or healing (X + 180% * AP) damage on a friendly Undead target.

    Notice how the DK version and the WC3 version are almost exactly the same, whereas the Warlock version is notably different?

    Now Meta

    WC3 Meta: Transforms the Demon Hunter into a powerful demon with a ranged attack (60 range) and 500 bonus hit points.
    WoW Meta: Transforms the lock into a powerful demon with a ranged attack (touch of Chaos) and (used to) bonus armor. It also allows the use of an equivalency to the Demon Hunter's Immolation.


    Now, notice how those are basically the same thing?
    Theron/Bloodwatcher 2013!

    Quote Originally Posted by Alsompr View Post
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  9. #1009
    You can't have Warlocks starting to use Spirit gear just because DH spec needs it for hit. You'd cause issue with Priests who need that gear to heal, the extra competitiion from a pure DPS spec is not going to fly. It's like what happened when Warlocks used to use Spirit, they went back on that change for an obvious reason.

  10. #1010
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Actually you can't, since you can cast renewing mists and uplift while in the middle of fighting mobs in melee range. Again, both are smart heals.
    Where you stand doesn't indicate what your spec is. A hunter is still a ranged class even though they can do everything from melee. If I wear to stand on the moon and DPS you can't start calling me a Moon caster. Renewing mists and uplift don't require you to be in melee range to use so you can quite easily tell that they weren't healing through melee abilities when the melee healing abilities are the lowest heals. They did it primarily through abilities that don't have a range restriction.

    Again you ignore the fact that in order for something to be melee it has to be done primarily through melee, and can't function as designed from ranged. A Mistweaver can heal from ranged or melee without hurting themselves. A rogue will always need to be in melee in order to do dps as designed. Ranged classes can move in and out of melee and still perform their duties as designed, even if they have some melee only abilities.


    What is hilarious about this quote is that you're completely ignorant to the changes that took place in 5.1, why Blizzard instituted those changes, and why they completely contradict your entire argument.
    So you can only heal from melee range as a monk? Your heals won't work from non melee? You can't stay out of melee range and do enough heals to keep your raid alive? Monks are not limited to melee only no matter how much you want to call me ignorant or insult me. The proof is in the game and it doesn't lie.
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  11. #1011
    Why not a mail-wearing Dragon aspect based class?

  12. #1012
    Deleted
    The Death Coil warlocks had is very much a variation of the Death Coil from WC2 and WC3. The only thing the warlock's Death Coil has to it, is it fears. Well, that is warlock for you, their CC is generally fear so duh. It was renamed to Mortal Coil to end the confusion between the two spells which was introduced in WotLK by introducing the Death Knight's Death Coil.

    http://classic.battle.net/war2/units/deathknight.shtml

    Here's the original Death Coil from WC2.

    Also here's art from the DK from WC2. Every DK drove an undead horse. I think its inspired by Nazgul (or Buckriders, a legend near the city of Maastricht and Liege), but which fantasy isn't.



    Now, of course the DK mount is kinda similar, but DK aren't always on their horse.

    As you can see by these examples, Blizzard will deviate from "past lore" and "past Warcraft games" if they see fit.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-29 at 01:11 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by TheEaterofSouls View Post
    Why not a mail-wearing Dragon aspect based class?
    Doesn't sound bad at all, if there's dragons in the expansion, and if it can use guns and (x)bows. Don't see why not!

  13. #1013
    Quote Originally Posted by lolalola View Post
    Doesn't sound bad at all, if there's dragons in the expansion, and if it can use guns and (x)bows. Don't see why not!
    ya just look up wow Dragonsworn. People have already come up with some unique ideas. Stuff that is NEW and something I haven't seen in RPGs as of yet.

    They could be a DPS, RDPS, Heal class. It could balance better without a tank spec imo.

  14. #1014
    Immortal mistuhbull's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lolalola View Post
    The Death Coil warlocks had is very much a variation of the Death Coil from WC2 and WC3. The only thing the warlock's Death Coil has to it, is it fears. Well, that is warlock for you, their CC is generally fear so duh. It was renamed to Mortal Coil to end the confusion between the two spells which was introduced in WotLK by introducing the Death Knight's Death Coil.

    http://classic.battle.net/war2/units/deathknight.shtml

    Here's the original Death Coil from WC2.

    Also here's art from the DK from WC2. Every DK drove an undead horse. I think its inspired by Nazgul (or Buckriders, a legend near the city of Maastricht and Liege), but which fantasy isn't.



    Now, of course the DK mount is kinda similar, but DK aren't always on their horse.

    As you can see by these examples, Blizzard will deviate from "past lore" and "past Warcraft games" if they see fit.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-29 at 01:11 AM ----------

    Doesn't sound bad at all, if there's dragons in the expansion, and if it can use guns and (x)bows. Don't see why not!
    Except that the ingame DK is based on the WC3 version, not the WC2 and the two are incredibly different. And that the ingame DK Death Coil is almost identical to that of WC3's. Warlock's wasn't. That is the damn point. Just as Warlock meta is almost identical (and was even moreso when first added and it made you tanky) to WC3's version of Meta.
    Theron/Bloodwatcher 2013!

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    Teasing, misdirection. It's the opposite of a spoiler. People expect one thing? BAM! Another thing happens.

    I'm like M. Night fucking Shamylan.

  15. #1015
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    The only thing stopping it is that Warlocks aren't a melee class and that NEs can't be Warlocks. Everything else is in place.
    There is nothing physically stopping a night elf from using Demonic magic. To use that as a reason for stopping it is silly because it is a purely mechanic limitation. Besides there exists in the game non night elf demon hunters. Why can't one of them be the one to teach every one else? With the return of the High borne to night elven society it is even more practical.

    There is nothing stopping them because a class not having a certain role isn't an indication they can never perform a different role. And mechanics always take a back seat to lore, and nothing in the lore stops someone from becoming a warlock. There is even a draenei warlock npc (http://www.wowpedia.org/Doomsayer_Jurim). Any playable race can become a warlock just not a playable warlock.

    Nor does a race that has knowledge of something necessarily have to be able to be a playable race for that class. Besides the RPG books even had human demon hunters helping to guard Hyjal though the rpg books do not always reflect cannon and could be different from the actual lore.
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  16. #1016
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    Quote Originally Posted by mistuhbull View Post
    Except that the ingame DK is based on the WC3 version, not the WC2 and the two are incredibly different. And that the ingame DK Death Coil is almost identical to that of WC3's. Warlock's wasn't. That is the damn point. Just as Warlock meta is almost identical (and was even moreso when first added and it made you tanky) to WC3's version of Meta.
    Yes, it is identical, sans the fear. That is the bloody point.

    WC2 -> WC3 -> WoW

    WC2 we got a DK DC, it gets further adapted in WC3, and then WoW is released and the warlock has the death coil. Then WotLK comes out 4 years later and they also have a death coil. Meanwhile in WoWland, spriest has mana burn, and warlock has mana drain. And ogres had originally blood lust, night elf racial gave stealth during night. Now look how that is changed? So f..ing what really? It doesn't say much.

    Blizzard will adapt, adopt, and butcher lore if it is in the interest of the gameplay. They'll likely do the other way around too. Abilities can be renamed, removed, altered whenever they see fit. That is the point.

  17. #1017
    Immortal mistuhbull's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lolalola View Post
    Yes, it is identical, sans the fear. That is the bloody point.

    WC2 -> WC3 -> WoW

    WC2 we got a DK DC, it gets further adapted in WC3, and then WoW is released and the warlock has the death coil. Then WotLK comes out 4 years later and they also have a death coil. Meanwhile in WoWland, spriest has mana burn, and warlock has mana drain. And ogres had originally blood lust, night elf racial gave stealth during night. Now look how that is changed? So f..ing what really? It doesn't say much.

    Blizzard will adapt, adopt, and butcher lore if it is in the interest of the gameplay. They'll likely do the other way around too. Abilities can be renamed, removed, altered whenever they see fit. That is the point.
    Really? Identical? I can use warlock death coil to heal a friendly undead creature? Since when?

    You could maybe, possibly, perhaps, have a point if there were different versions of Demon Hunters in the Warcraft Universe, but there's not. There is only the Illidan style.
    Theron/Bloodwatcher 2013!

    Quote Originally Posted by Alsompr View Post
    Teasing, misdirection. It's the opposite of a spoiler. People expect one thing? BAM! Another thing happens.

    I'm like M. Night fucking Shamylan.

  18. #1018
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    You can't have Warlocks starting to use Spirit gear just because DH spec needs it for hit. You'd cause issue with Priests who need that gear to heal, the extra competitiion from a pure DPS spec is not going to fly. It's like what happened when Warlocks used to use Spirit, they went back on that change for an obvious reason.
    Only one spec of Warlocks would be using this gear if this ever occurred. I'd hardly think that would devastate the loot tables.

  19. #1019
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mistuhbull View Post
    You could maybe, possibly, perhaps, have a point if there were different versions of Demon Hunters in the Warcraft Universe, but there's not. There is only the Illidan style.
    Well there is http://www.wowhead.com/npc=21178 which has a different demon form then illidan, and is a demon hunter. His form is more that of dread lord. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7Pt7...ailpage#t=136s sort of shows the different demon form model but isn't really the best look at it.

    It isn't a matter of the only lore and style being that of Illidan. It is a matter of the iconic ones, which is of illidan style, being given to another class already. It would be like giving another class, when it fits lore, all of the druid shape shift forms. It just wouldn't feel right and would cut down on much needed class diversity. It would also annoy people that now have to share their iconic abilities/look with another class.
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  20. #1020
    Immortal mistuhbull's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Well there is http://www.wowhead.com/npc=21178 which has a different demon form then illidan, and is a demon hunter. His form is more that of dread lord. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7Pt7...ailpage#t=136s sort of shows the different demon form model but isn't really the best look at it.

    It isn't a matter of the only lore and style being that of Illidan. It is a matter of the iconic ones, which is of illidan style, being given to another class already. It would be like giving another class, when it fits lore, all of the druid shape shift forms. It just wouldn't feel right and would cut down on much needed class diversity. It would also annoy people that now have to share their iconic abilities/look with another class.
    See that's actually a valid point...ooh new idea. What if each spec of the DH class was based on a different demon transformation? A tanking spec is based on a Pit Lord and you get the big horns and some cool skin effects and a tail, the Ranged DPS form is Illidan's demon, and the Melee is a Dreadlord (or Wrathguard) (or no demon?). That's actually a good way to bring it in
    Theron/Bloodwatcher 2013!

    Quote Originally Posted by Alsompr View Post
    Teasing, misdirection. It's the opposite of a spoiler. People expect one thing? BAM! Another thing happens.

    I'm like M. Night fucking Shamylan.

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