No Quarter Exposed: World First NA Regulos Kill an Exploit

[Puremallace]

The amount of people defending what is clearly an exploit is surprising. It obviously trivializes the fight, which just happens to be the final boss of the tier and therefore the most important.

Honestly, just ask yourself, did the developer intend this? If the answer is no, then continuing to do so makes you an exploiter

The problem is Tarien everyone in this thread who is posting right is guilty of doing the shit. Now NO Quarter acting high and mighty, then being discovered to have cheesed it is probably what is pissing off most top end raiders and honestly they are allowed to bask in this chance.

Trion has sort of allowed this...well maybe it is and maybe it is not behavior by allowing the shorts cuts to remain. You mean to tell me they can't add a invisible barrier in the Murdantix room like they have everywhere else to prevent this??

Shit first thing I learned dps'n Storm legion experts was where to stand to avoid the boss mechanics. Devs clearly play this game or they do not pug because alot of this stuff is pretty common knowledge. I assume they do not fix it in some attempt to not make casuals cry the shit is too hard.

I mean the LOS thing = exploit. Druid pets were made to tank. Honestly the shit is ingenious or stupid lucky to have even tried it. I assume someone did it just to try and wipe the raid for shits and giggles and realized it worked. I doubt there is some super secret plan by NQ to enter every raid looking for an exploit.

Demanding they be banned when we all have done it at one point is pretty damn hypocritical and it is being over blown. Also no WoW players better come into this thread on the soap box after some of the Paragon and Starz shit I have seen lately. It happens in every mmo and is entertainment everytime.

[Cupcaek]

Holy shit, seven pages. I have a lot to read but re: the people that called me out as having lost respect of me, that's fine.

[Deleted]

So here is the general diea here guys. Basically:
1. No Quarter has dev contacts I assume and should have said "you can tank Regulos with a pet"
2. Trions next move I am sure would have been to disable the encounter
3. Many threads would have appeared criticizing Trion for disabling, but it would have been fixed.

Step 1 never happened.

Ok there is a lot of misinformation in this thread...

1. Alpha/beta forum existed; virtually all top guilds have representatives; some more than others. Im 99% sure No quarter had a few people in there, regardless of their history of exploiting.
2. The exploit regarding pet tanks were posted on the alpha forums for everyone there to see, aswell as through other developer channels.
3. This exploit went live only fixed individually on a few bosses, but remained on many more.
4. Knowing of this exploit, almost all guilds did not abuse this bug (i'm guessing a lot of guilds didn't even have time to test if it made it to live).

Now, Trion really fucked up bigtime on this issue and they know it. This should never have made it to live in the first place, but it did and it could have been so much worse. We specifically asked the GM's if they still considered this an exploit since it made it to live and were told not to use it, or encourage others to use it by posting it on the forums etc. I believe Trion never specifically told every guild to not use this tactic, but most guilds realized this was too much of a weird strat to use and refrained from using it. In most cases it didn't matter and just made the strat harder. I can honestly say we had loads of discussions about all these "clever use of game mechanics" (specifically on Goloch), since sometimes it is hard to know Trions intentions (avoiding Crash of Souls on Regulos, for example).

We did get some sound advice from GM's though: If you have to ask, you should probably not do it. I might have gotten something wrong cause I was not actually on the alpha program; pretty sure everything is correct though.

[Lathais]

The amount of people defending what is clearly an exploit is surprising. It obviously trivializes the fight, which just happens to be the final boss of the tier and therefore the most important.

Honestly, just ask yourself, did the developer intend this? If the answer is no, then continuing to do so makes you an exploiter

It really is this simple and it really is an exploit. Now, seeing as not all exploits are equal, the thing to discuss, and what should have probably been the discussion in the first place, is how it should or speculation on how it will be handled. It clearly, by definition and Trion's responses, is an exploit. Now how seriously should it be taken?

I say, simply strip them of the achievement and gear earned through this method, tell anyone else that does the same the same will happen to them, fix it when they have the time/resources and carry on with life.

[Deleted]

Well its rather simple really, the pet doesnt even take any damage so...

[Cupcaek]

1. Alpha/beta forum existed; virtually all top guilds have representatives; some more than others. Im 99% sure No quarter had a few people in there, regardless of their history of exploiting.

100% incorrect. NQ had no one with Alpha access and no one with beta access (outside of the open beta.) However, when I joined NQ that did change because I did have beta access outside of open beta and I was apart of a guild that did test FT/EE. However, I never had Alpha forum access and only had Beta forum access.

[notorious98]

The amount of people defending what is clearly an exploit is surprising. It obviously trivializes the fight, which just happens to be the final boss of the tier and therefore the most important.

Honestly, just ask yourself, did the developer intend this? If the answer is no, then continuing to do so makes you an exploiter

Then Trion is lazy. I'll keep saying it over and over again. They could have made a mechanic that forces a real live human tank to tank Regulos. They didn't. They knew about the pet being able to tank. Instead of adding something to the fight, they just told alpha/beta testers, "Don't do that". Then they release the fight as is. That's the epitome of lazy.

[RoughRaptors]

I doubt there is some super secret plan by NQ to enter every raid looking for an exploit.

There is, I was in NQ.

100% incorrect. NQ had no one with Alpha access and no one with beta access (outside of the open beta.)

False, multiple people were in alpha, I am not giving names specifically.

[Deleted]

100% incorrect. NQ had no one with Alpha access and no one with beta access (outside of the open beta.) However, when I joined NQ that did change because I did have beta access outside of open beta and I was apart of a guild that did test FT/EE. However, I never had Alpha forum access and only had Beta forum access.

I'm certain i saw no quarters online in the closed beta. On the alpha forum thing i'll take your word for it, but I have been told different.

EDIT: I trust Roughraptors saying NQ had alpha testers, so my points still stand.

[notorious98]

By your logic, YOU gave him the extra $30 accidentally, he should keep it.

Terrible analogy. This wasn't an accident. Trion knew about it and released it anyway. If a customer came in and looked at his $50, said "Here's $50", had you say to him "Do you want your change?", and then he walked away, THAT would be a more fitting analogy.

[Cupcaek]

I'm certain i saw no quarters online in the closed beta. On the alpha forum thing i'll take your word for it, but I have been told different.

EDIT: I trust Roughraptors saying NQ had alpha testers, so my points still stand.

That's fine by me. I'm not going out of my way for anything. Think what ya want. The NQ that we have now is not the same NQ that RR was apart of, 100% fact.

[Deleted]

That's fine by me. I'm not going out of my way for anything. Think what ya want. The NQ that we have now is not the same NQ that RR was apart of, 100% fact.

Every guild changes over time, that's nothing new. But i know for a fact your leadership havent change a whole lot since the beta testing; are you telling me those players were not in the testing but other players that supposedly left the game/guild were?

[Edge-]

Alright, I'm stepping in to say let's not go down this road. If you want to discuss the internals of No Quarter, do so elsewhere, not in these forums. If you want to discuss the event that's the topic of this thread, feel free to do so and make sure to do so respectfully and without calling people out.

[Tharkkun]

Resing faster than a death touch triggers on an encounter from a previous tier that was not intended to be killed at all is completely different from stacking LoS and causing the boss from the most current tier to not do tank or raid damage outside of the "stop hitting buttons" on a random person mechanic. A better comparison would be Conquest LoSing one of the dragons in Sleeper's Tomb for the same result. If you want to talk examples from previous games that's the best and most appropriate to my knowledge. Plus it's interesting considering one of the devs for Rift was in Conquest.

The Avatar of War exploit was taming the Frozen Moses (Legionaire Blizzardwalker). They cheal'd it when cheal had no limits and used it to tank the Avatar until it died. That was fixed shortly after but the loot was not removed.

I also played Wow with the person who figured out the Sleeper strategy (Vyrus) who was banned for the Sleeper's Tomb exploit by using line of sight. Raids used los on lots of bosses but SOE was pissed when they released the sleeper because the script wasn't ready so they banned them all.

SOE was ruthless though and they banned you because they felt like it instead of using good judgement. More modern MMO companies think things through a bit more.

[Primalthirst]

Holy shit, seven pages. I have a lot to read but re: the people that called me out as having lost respect of me, that's fine.

People write things when they're drunk

100% incorrect. NQ had no one with Alpha access and no one with beta access (outside of the open beta.) However, when I joined NQ that did change because I did have beta access outside of open beta and I was apart of a guild that did test FT/EE. However, I never had Alpha forum access and only had Beta forum access.

I was in Alpha, there were several NQ members with access to the Alpha boards. The rest of us couldn't believe it.

I'd like to clear up a few things here since there's a lot of people not familiar with the encounters/Rift in general:

1) Pet tanking was never used on Regulos in testing, it was used on several other bosses which were fixed before release to prevent it occurring. Regulos was not tested by players at all. Other guilds discovered on Live it was still possible and asked if they were allowed to use it, they were told no.
2) Pet tanking bosses is not an exploit in of itself. The issue is that doing so allowed bypassing/ignoring mechanics. Causing a tank to take 0 damage from a boss is an exploit, no matter which way you slice it.
3) The examples given of previous exploits, namely dragging Plutonus outside the fence or Mudrantix up the stairs: Those were mostly definitely exploits which a LOT of people used at one point or another. The reason they weren't ever fixed, and I heard this from the lead encounter designer himself, was that by the time they were discovered by the dev team it was many months after the instances had been released, and his policy was not to 'buff' bosses so long after release. This situation is different because these are current progression encounters, only being done by a small number of guilds, none of which are using these exploits.
4) Losing Matriarch is a very definite exploit since it allows the raid to ignore almost all of her mechanics. It's not as simple as stepping behind a pillar either, you have to run into a very tiny piece of graphical embellishment on the wall in what is otherwise a flat, open room.

[Belloc]

Or they are simply demonstrating their faith in the community to not make use of exploits that they either do not have the time, resources or technical capabilities to fix. Noone is perfect.

Except that they DO have the time, DO have the resources, and DO have the technical capabilities to fix it. If there is anything they don't have, it's the creativity to do so. I already explained a fool-proof method of fixing pet tanking by creating a simple flag (simpler than creating a cleave effect, as demonstrated in my previous posts) that can be attached to a boss' melee attack.

Don't confuse laziness with lack of ability. They are 100% capable of fixing something like pet tanking.

After reading your first sentence it seems that you do not understand line of sight. I am confused how you could even make the argument that it is the dev's fault for having line of sight in the game.

As far as I can tell, nobody had said anything about Line of Sight when I made my post. I certainly wasn't referring to anything that has to do with line of sight and I have no idea why you bothered posting that. Don't interject arguments into posts that have nothing to do with said arguments.

[Tharkkun]

Or they are simply demonstrating their faith in the community to not make use of exploits that they either do not have the time, resources or technical capabilities to fix. Noone is perfect.

That's like not patching a security hole in Windows because people shouldn't do bad things, then blaming them because you were lazy and didn't fix it.

Trion knows that pets take less aoe/cleave damage correct? They do know their own game? Players know this works this way also so their pets survive better than melee classes.

Unless Trion specifically stated on the public forums that using pets to tank bosses is an exploit it's not an exploit. Private beta/alpha forums mean nothing if everyone doesn't have the information.

So as it stands Trion *should* fix the encounter and fast but it would be absurd to take the kill and loot away. Punishing this guild would be saying you made us look like idiots so we'll fix it and retaliate. It is a video game after all, not a war...

[Tarien]

Trion has sort of allowed this...well maybe it is and maybe it is not behavior by allowing the shorts cuts to remain. You mean to tell me they can't add a invisible barrier in the Murdantix room like they have everywhere else to prevent this??

The difference is that Murdantix was the first boss and he had been killed by dozens, maybe hundreds of guilds before this 'tactic' came to light. Sure it made it easier, but it was already an easy, entry level fight that anyone who was half serious about raiding had killed without using the stairs.

Then Trion is lazy. I'll keep saying it over and over again. They could have made a mechanic that forces a real live human tank to tank Regulos. They didn't. They knew about the pet being able to tank. Instead of adding something to the fight, they just told alpha/beta testers, "Don't do that". Then they release the fight as is. That's the epitome of lazy.

Weird, because I'm pretty sure there are guns and ammo available for sale the world over and the sole purpose of a gun is to kill but yet we have laws that say 'Don't kill people' and it really should be enough. Strangely when people cross that line there is a punishment...

That's like not patching a security hole in Windows because people shouldn't do bad things, then blaming them because you were lazy and didn't fix it.

But in this rather amusing analogy, the people (NQ) abusing the security hole (pet tanking) are still criminals (exploiters) and should be punished (bans all round).

Yes, Trion should have fixed it, and their punishment is the bad PR their game gets.

But at the end of the day, NQ shouldn't have abused what was clearly not intended - just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. It's a lesson you teach to children. They have a history of finding and abusing loopholes to gain an unfair advantage, they have a history of anti-social behaviour, they bring nothing positive to the game and don't deserve to play. I'd permaban them all and delete their accounts if it were my decision, I detest cheaters.

[AddictVioarr]

As far as I can tell, nobody had said anything about Line of Sight when I made my post. I certainly wasn't referring to anything that has to do with line of sight and I have no idea why you bothered posting that. Don't interject arguments into posts that have nothing to do with said arguments.

Did you even read the thread before you posted or just the title then skipped to the last post? I've been talking about Matriarch, Matriarch is the fight they LoS'ed to circumvent nearly all of the mechanics. It's in the OP, it's been talked about at length, and I don't know how you missed it. As far as you can tell wasn't very far apparently.

---------- Post added 2013-01-31 at 08:02 PM ----------

That's like not patching a security hole in Windows because people shouldn't do bad things, then blaming them because you were lazy and didn't fix it.

Last I checked if I violated a security fault with Windows my employer would fire me, not Microsoft. You gave a perfect example of why it's silly to only blame the developer instead of the person violating the rules. I don't accept the premise that only one party can be at fault, both can be at fault to varying degrees and any argument otherwise is foolish. In this case NQ owns a lion's share of the the blame.

[Lathais]

Terrible analogy. This wasn't an accident. Trion knew about it and released it anyway. If a customer came in and looked at his $50, said "Here's $50", had you say to him "Do you want your change?", and then he walked away, THAT would be a more fitting analogy.

Except they didn't know about it, they knew about it on other fights, not on this one.