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  1. #61
    You simply cannot compare normal to ranked matches in LoL. Pretty sure SC2 and LoL are in different genres for a reason..... Play what you like, watch what you like.

  2. #62
    The Lightbringer Toxigen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bals View Post
    Yeah I never got why they are so extremely popular either.
    You can log in, play 1-2 games, and log off without falling behind your "competition."

    It is highly competitive, skill-based, and grants a sense of accomplishment with strong play.

    Lastly...it's downright fun (to the point of being addicting) carrying four others to victory as you destroy an enemy team of five because YOU made all the right decisions and had strong mechanics to win.

    Its a rage/trend. It'll wash over sooner or later.
    Haha, just like MMOs and FPS games, right?

    Wrong, MOBAs are here to stay. Not sure why this upsets people.
    "There are two types of guys in this world. Guys who sniff their fingers after scratching their balls, and dirty fucking liars." -StylesClashv3
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalis View Post
    Not finding-a-cock-on-your-girlfriend-is-normal level of odd, but nevertheless, still odd.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toxigen View Post
    You can log in, play 1-2 games, and log off without falling behind your "competition."

    It is highly competitive, skill-based, and grants a sense of accomplishment with strong play.
    That does sound very attractive, but there are MMORPGs which don't require a grind. I agree with you on this one since I am absolutely done with grinds.

    Haha, just like MMOs and FPS games, right?

    Wrong, MOBAs are here to stay. Not sure why this upsets people.
    For now, sure.

    However back in the days people said the same about Flippo's and Quake.

    Did we ever see any computer game in the Olympics? That'd be recognition in my book.

  4. #64
    Herald of the Titans Varyk's Avatar
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    It's a fast paced multiplayer game.

    You couldn't watch a playthrough of Skyrim as an e-sport.

    It has nothing to do with the skill cap, it's about entertainment value, being able to watch over and over and get a different (but similar) experience ever ytime.

    It's marketable as a competitive game, stop calling it a sport tho, it's just not.

  5. #65
    The Lightbringer barackopala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lolalola View Post
    That does sound very attractive, but there are MMORPGs which don't require a grind. I agree with you on this one since I am absolutely done with grinds.

    For now, sure.

    However back in the days people said the same about Flippo's and Quake.

    Did we ever see any computer game in the Olympics? That'd be recognition in my book.
    Quake is an FPS, fps hasn't fallen, MOBA's neither since Eul (a Reign of Chaos map that got developed into DotA)

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Varyk View Post
    It's a fast paced multiplayer game.

    You couldn't watch a playthrough of Skyrim as an e-sport.

    It has nothing to do with the skill cap, it's about entertainment value, being able to watch over and over and get a different (but similar) experience ever ytime.

    It's marketable as a competitive game, stop calling it a sport tho, it's just not.
    If Chess is a sport (sitting and moving your hand) then computer games can be a sport too. By playing games, stressing yourself, moving hands fast, you are actually burning more callories than by playing chess or cards.

  7. #67
    The Unstoppable Force Kelimbror's Avatar
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    For everyone negating the CoD generation...you clearly haven't heard any of these kids talking or 'communicating'. It's the number one criticism for this genre. It has nothing to do with the specific content of the game. It's PvP that attracts the same dysfunctional personality types.

    It's a completely accurate assessment.

    Edit:

    CoD Generation doesn't mean a specific age bracket, it's the generation of gamers that have become more involved in games through things like CoD and other shooters/PvP games. It's abundantly self evident. If you disagree, well maybe you are one of those people.
    BAD WOLF

  8. #68
    The Lightbringer barackopala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    For everyone negating the CoD generation...you clearly haven't heard any of these kids talking or 'communicating'. It's the number one criticism for this genre. It has nothing to do with the specific content of the game. It's PvP that attracts the same dysfunctional personality types.

    It's a completely accurate assessment.
    Happens in all MOBA communities, if you played DotA1 you'd understand it, before CoD there was dota and it was a lot of rage.

  9. #69
    The Lightbringer barackopala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tommo View Post
    If your playing a game like dota for the first time your going to hate it, try playing at least 20-40 games until you somewhat understand the basic mechanics then form an opinion. Due to the fact you havent played the game most of what you said was basicly wrong, im not going to deconstruct it but you just need to play more.
    Definately, he's not enjoying the game just because he doesn't understand the game itself, happened to me when i started playing Counter Strike for my first time, was a fucking pain in the ass getting used to the 3shot you're dead style, I was used to UT/Quake gameplay thus making me hate the game, I suck at it and I just dislike it but hey I must admit is an extremely high skill-cap game and is quite good.

  10. #70
    After I got very bored with WoW in Cata, I decided to give LoL a try. The graphic looked strange to me at first (gigantic champions, a steady stream of really tiny creeps, more of a comic-y graphic style, not unlike WoW), but soon I got a basic understanding of what was going on.
    I dislike games like C&C, SC etc. because you have to micromanage so much, but LoL seemed interesting from the beginning: You play one character like in WoW, earn gold, buy stuff, gain levels. Soraka heals, Ashe stands there and shoots people, Annie has high burst with her spells, but doesn't do much autoattack damage between her cooldowns, bruisers are like PvP tanks in WoW... although I didn't know 90% of the other champions, the basics were instantly clear.

    Besides playing myself, I soon started to enjoy LoL streams. Having watched quite a few WoW arena streams before, it was basically: People spanking each other for 20 minutes, then suddenly someone dies in 2 seconds. As a viewer, you wouldn't really have a clue why, if the streamer's didn't say "let's do this and this CC chain, then burst healer" "oh no, I died in a Kidney Shot, why didn't you peel the rogue?"

    In LoL streams, at first I did not know 95% of what the champions do, but it became clearer quite fast only by watching. Oh, the big monster thingy can make the earth erupt, and has a silencing roar. The viking throws slowing Axes which you can avoid, and he can run really fast. The fat guy throws exploding barrels and can jump onto people. The little mummy can pull himself onto people and stun them all with the big yellow circle, and so on.
    Also, streamers like Scarra were also very entertaining and informative, because he explains what he is doing and why a lot.

    In game, I noticed that skill was more important than in WoW, too. In WoW a friend of mine did good damage in our raid, and we played arena at about 1.8k just by coordinatiang our CCs and bursting somebody down... having good PvE gear helped a lot, too.
    But In LoL I noticed that I didn't do too hot most of the time (couldn't properly last hit, misjudged when I could be aggressive and when I should back out, had problems landing skill shots), while my friend absolutely carried every game - he had 30/5/x stats most of the time, while I struggled not to feed too hard in the beginning.

    Now, I still enjoy the PvE aspect of WoW, but I only PvP in LoL. Some things I noted regarding LoL:

    - not gear dependent; you don't need to farm BGs, raids and arenas for gear to not get totally stomped
    - skill is a big part of the game. It doesn't require the (tedious) level of micromanaging like SC2 etc, but it's not a "farm gear, chain CCs and let's hope for big crits" like WoW, either
    - game is changing all the time, but you're not totally screwed when your favourite champion/class gets nerfed. Just play somthing else, no weeks of farming required
    - many interesting esport events for me to watch and learn new stuff; WoW has not even a publicly available spectator client
    - game is easy to understand as a spectator, you can see better what's going on that in arenas or SC2 (RTS are like watching someone else taking care of his ant farm to me ), for example, although you may not know the ability of every champion you see. (Ego shooters are also quite enjoyable for me to spectate in this regard)
    Last edited by Lil; 2013-02-01 at 06:15 PM.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by barackopala View Post
    Quake is an FPS, fps hasn't fallen, MOBA's neither since Eul (a Reign of Chaos map that got developed into DotA)
    FPS never fallen? FPS never rose anywhere near the credibility of a game like chess or football. FPS and MOBA are just a signs of time: trends and rages which come and go. If we still play MOBAs in 50 years we'll talk again, perhaps with you taking part in the Olympics.

  12. #72
    Neither do I understand how this genre became a standard for "pro gaming", looking at what used to be the standard (Quake 3, CS, etc). Sure it takes some skill to play, but it's mostly knowledge. It's knowing the ability of your hero and the abilities of your enemies. But that is knowledge, not skill (I count hand motorics, reflexes, etc as skill) - IMO.
    Cerebral skill is no less respectable than motor skill.

    We don't say a pro baseball player is the greater professional than a professional poker player. Athletic ability is different but the skill of their respective professions is not typically in question.

    The assertion otherwise, is personal bias. And really no one else should or does care about what old man Grumps thinks is a "real" job/sport/profession/etc. So to speak.

    I was always able to notice what made games popular, even if I didn't find the game good myself.
    MOBAs appeal to to a new era of gaming. One that is in mass popularity centered on casual and immediate play, online play, ala carte purchases and the free-2-play business models.

    Where core gamers may be looking for those aspects too, they are also increasingly looking for; skill based play, competitive play and depth of play.

    The MOBA genre hit that sweet spot between popular and core gaming perfectly.

  13. #73
    Brewmaster juzalol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duronos View Post
    @juzalol Alright... LoL has no skill hmmm? I would fully disagree. Have you ever been in the soloqueue? Reach 1900+ and you can say whatever you want because soloqueue is highly skill based. You don't have a team over voice chat etc. So that's all that teamwork element gone just about, tell me why pretty much every pro player who makes a smurf account can get right back up to that elo and i can't get past 1500. Reason I can't is because I'm not skilled enough.

    I have an extensive knowledge of this game but my brother is still better than me and has barely any knowledge of compared to most at his skill level. Please, since the ladders have changed, please try to reach championship tier and I'll make sure you can go to the moon or something if you do.
    First thing. I am speaking about MOBA GAMES NOT LEAGUE OF LEGENDS SPECIFICALLY. There is no need for you to come at me guns
    blazing and defend the honor of your favorite game. And secondly, what I'm saying is that it's far easier to obtain acceptable skill level
    in MOBA GAMES, NOT LEAGUE OF LEGENDS SPECIFICALLY than it's in i.e. Starcraft or Counter Strike.

    In Moba games the first few hundred games will significantly increase your performance. Once you are capable of deciding which fights to
    take and when to back off etc. there is barely any room for improvement which makes the top 5% of players very close to each other
    in terms of individual skill level.

    Starcraft and FPS games are mechanically challenging, moba games or not. In mobas if you know when to engage, when to gank, what to buy
    and in general how to react in different situations then any decent gamer can execute those actions almost perfectly with just a handful of games
    of learning the controls and hotkeys.

    In FPS games when you see someone you know that you want to shoot him in the head, but that requires thousands of games to iron the different
    angles and distances to your muscle memory so you are able to actually get that headshot.

    In SC2 when you see the banelings rolling in, you know you want to split all your marines to avoid the damage while you focus the banelings down with your siege tank and keep up the production and harass the opponent. Once again you need thousands of games of practice just to split efficiently in a split second time.

    In moba games you see a potential kill, you hit Q and if it's a skill shot you try to guess which way he will try to dodge based on the possible
    escape routes and from your observations of that player and his habits on dodging stuff. It's knowledge, not skill ironed out in thousands and thousands of games.
    Last edited by juzalol; 2013-02-01 at 06:14 PM.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Daraiki View Post
    I see you do not know the DOTA 2 community that well or the history of Dota for that matter....
    I got invited to DotA2 right after first international and I am playing DotA for 7 years. I know DotA community and its history.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daraiki View Post
    Tell me when did min/max come into play in Dota?
    What do you mean with min/max? If you mean damage range. I don't really remember when it came and I don't really think I need to prove myself

    Quote Originally Posted by Daraiki View Post
    Oooh and Dota was not the first "ARTS/MOBA/LPG/....."
    I know it's descended from a Starcraft map but DotA is first true ARTS.

    Claiming ARTS are for CoD/WoW generation is as stupid as all other gross generalizations.

    ps: These kind of claims generally comes from those who fail to play even an easy game like CoD and then start to hate the game and it's community.

    ps2: I didn't know this forum is full with ARTS ignorants. Seriously, go play and see if it's that much easy to do some stuff(I am talking about DotA)
    Last edited by Kuntantee; 2013-02-01 at 06:22 PM.

  15. #75
    The Unstoppable Force Kelimbror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by juzalol View Post
    In moba games you see a potential kill, you hit Q and if it's a skill shot you try to guess which way he will try to dodge based on the possible
    escape routes and from your observations of that player and his habits on dodging stuff. It's knowledge, not skill ironed out in thousands and thousands of games.
    This is where your argument really breaks down. This is honestly no different than any situation you've brought up, especially given the number of variables in location, opponent, and so on.

    It takes just as many plays to develop successful habits and strategies. It's no different than anything else. There are also thresholds in the level of your opponent that reset your learning curve and won't apply to any other scenario you've already learned. To dumb this genre down like it's not the same as everything else is giving too much credit to other genres and/or not enough to this one
    BAD WOLF

  16. #76
    The Lightbringer barackopala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lolalola View Post
    FPS never fallen? FPS never rose anywhere near the credibility of a game like chess or football. FPS and MOBA are just a signs of time: trends and rages which come and go. If we still play MOBAs in 50 years we'll talk again, perhaps with you taking part in the Olympics.
    1st of:
    -I'm not talking about sports, that's not the trend, you're throwing my comment completetly overboard stating that FPS or MOBAS can go to Olympics? that's complete BS, never refered to that point at all, do not assume things I didn't say, I do think e-sports are quite skillfull indeed, might be considered sports might not be, but they're e-sports afterall, they DO require skill, the sport discussion is for another time, I didn't talk about it, idk why you just randomly throwed that reply to me.

    2nd:
    -FPS Genre has always been on the competitive scene, MLG has been doing it's job, same as IPL even Dreamhack getting that genre alive (Halo/CoD/CS1.6 among other titles like Quake Arena), so yes, the competitive scene is open for FPS and we could backtrack down to the lines of Doom which is still a praised game and people just love FPS's.

    3rd:
    -Who is talking about credibility in other sports... 0 coherence on your statement according to where my post was headed to.



    The biggest issue people have with MOBA's is the easy way to learn the game itself, it may seem shallow and it's simple as it is, extremely basic, but the skill-cap, the "skill ceiling" which is a very much used term in Starcraft 1-2 is high, it's just as simple as listening a player that loves SC:BW and his criticism against SC2, it's due to the easy way to improve in the game due to it's simplicity but they hardly embrace the fact that the skill ceiling is still not present (and probably will not be until we have Heart of the Void on it's last patch).
    Last edited by barackopala; 2013-02-01 at 06:23 PM.

  17. #77
    The Lightbringer barackopala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tommo View Post
    How can you even type that? Its wrong, plain and simple.
    Seems like he never played hard champions like lee sin and/or never gotten to a high MMR, you can say the same about every game if you don't really embrace the game itself and test it by yourself.

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by juzalol View Post
    It's also not very skill based at all. The best team in the business does not consist of the best players in the world or
    even close. Obviously they are very good at the game, but having good player synergy and coordination is far more superior
    than having the best players.
    having the best teamwork in a TEAM game does in fact, make you the best players.

  19. #79
    Brewmaster juzalol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    This is where your argument really breaks down. This is honestly no different than any situation you've brought up, especially given the number of variables in location, opponent, and so on.

    It takes just as many plays to develop successful habits and strategies. It's no different than anything else. There are also thresholds in the level of your opponent that reset your learning curve and won't apply to any other scenario you've already learned. To dumb this genre down like it's not the same as everything else is giving too much credit to other genres and/or not enough to this one
    Same applies to other games too. You have to know what to do in each situation. The difference is that in Moba games once you know
    what to do the action itself is very simple to execute unlike in other e-sport games. Once you have decided to optimal action, executing
    it is mechanically hard and often times fails even if your enemy does not interfere in any way.

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by barackopala View Post
    1st of:
    -I'm not talking about sports, that's not the trend, you're throwing my comment completetly overboard stating that FPS or MOBAS can go to Olympics? that's complete BS, never refered to that point at all, do not assume things I didn't say, I do think e-sports are quite skillfull indeed, might be considered sports might not be, but they're e-sports afterall, they DO require skill, the sport discussion is for another time, I didn't talk about it, idk why you just randomly throwed that reply to me.

    2nd:
    -FPS Genre has always been on the competitive scene, MLG has been doing it's job, same as IPL even Dreamhack getting that genre alive (Halo/CoD/CS1.6 among other titles like Quake Arena), so yes, the competitive scene is open for FPS and we could backtrack down to the lines of Doom which is still a praised game and people just love FPS's.

    3rd:
    -Who is talking about credibility in other sports... 0 coherence on your statement according to where my post was headed to.
    How is my statement incoherent? I posted about how this type of game is just a trend / rage (call it hype if you must) which will go away. Back when I grew up, Street Fighter arcade and Pong were considered games about skill. Look where we are now? What I'm saying is it won't be recognized as a real sport like sports which are established at the Olympics. I know you didn't bring up real, regular sports recognized by IOC. I did!

    I never said MOBA doesn't require skill, isn't competitive, or anything like that (heck, I never even played any, but from what I read I find them more competitive than games with dumb grinds like WoW PvE and PvP). Read my replies here. I wrote nowhere what you claim. I never downplayed the skill required to play a FPS game or MOBA game. What I did put into its place, is the credibility MOBA and FPS e-sports have outside of their little cult circles. Let me rub it in your face again: The general population doesn't recognize these e-sports!

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