Blizzards 25 man mistake.

[Espe]

Many, many players seem to be in agreement that the problem with 25s is a logistical one. In that it is simply more work to maintain a 25s raid roster/guild than a 10s. I don't think this can be disputed. As such, it seems to be common sense that there must be some extra incentive in order to compensate for the extra work.

25s already receive a multitude of incentives to compensate for their slightly higher logistical (i.e. outside of raid) requirement.

* More drops per kill.
* Higher chance of raiders being able to actually use the loot than in 10m.
* Much, much less executional (i.e. inside of the actual raid instance) responsibility per person.
* Multiple battle rezes for longer progression attempts and easier kills.
* Slightly less tightly tuned enrage timers on both normal and heroic modes than 10m.

It seems to me that if people still don't want to do 25s with so many incentives as it is, maybe 25s should simply be brought up to be even with 10m. Give them the same drops per boss, give them the same increased difficulty as 10m, take away their extra battle rezes and even though they still have a distinct executional advantage maybe people will actually take them seriously enough to want to try them again. As it is now most 25m encounters are an under-tuned joke.

[MoanaLisa]

And personally that's is a BS answer.

I could get it if Transfer's was like 5$-10$ each and I would personally pay that but 25$ a transfer is bs so players are forced to stay on a dieing server.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. My answer is no more BS than people wanting something for free or a greatly reduced rate simply because they think that's the way it should be.

And people aren't forced to do any such thing. I've re-rolled more than once. It's not that big a deal to get a new toon to endgame. Frankly if that $25 for a transfer has helped to keep my subscription rate exactly the same for close to seven years now, then I'm good with that.

[Deleted]

25s already receive a multitude of incentives to compensate for their slightly higher logistical (i.e. outside of raid) requirement.

* More drops per kill.
* Higher chance of raiders being able to actually use the loot than in 10m.
* Much, much less executional (i.e. inside of the actual raid instance) responsibility per person.
* Multiple battle rezes for longer progression attempts and easier kills.
* Slightly less tightly tuned enrage timers on both normal and heroic modes than 10m.

It seems to me that if people still don't want to do 25s with so many incentives as it is, maybe 25s should simply be brought up to be even with 10m. Give them the same drops per boss, give them the same increased difficulty as 10m, take away their extra battle rezes and even though they still have a distinct executional advantage maybe people will actually take them seriously enough to want to try them again. As it is now most 25m encounters are an under-tuned joke.

lovely how you decided to skip the part where the personal dps requirements are usually 20% higher in 25 man.
And the part where there is much less space to move in 25 man.
And the part where it is more difficult to manage a huge group than a tiny.
And the part where Ghostcrawler said, that people raid 10 man for the lewt, not for the fun.

[jax]

My statements refuted your premise.

This is your statement:

Jax, I don't have to do LFR anymore for months There's no upgrades for me there, for either of my specs.

Your saying that this statement refutes my premise that Heroic raiders still have to and will continue to have to run LFR.

Taking your statement at face value:
Raids started Oct 3, its now Feb 4th so thats 4 months that you could of raided.
You stated that you have not had to run LFR for months (so that means at least two months)

So your statement is that in 1 to maybe 2 months of raiding you got higher than 483 ilevel in every slot on your main spec AND on your off spec.

I find that very hard to believe... very very hard in fact.
Do you seriously think that is the normal drop rate for things?
You are either the most lucky person on the planet and I want you going with me to Vegas in the summer, or you are VASTLY over stating your premise.

I'm going with option B...

Your conclusion may very well be true, but it doesn't follow from your premise.

I think we find that my premise... that many people doing heroics still need gear is much more believable than your 6 weeks or so to gear up 2 specs insanity.


Lol... fantasy land is that way -------------------->

[Jtbrig7390]

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. My answer is no more BS than people wanting something for free or a greatly reduced rate simply because they think that's the way it should be.

And people aren't forced to do any such thing. I've re-rolled more than once. It's not that big a deal to get a new toon to endgame. Frankly if that $25 for a transfer has helped to keep my subscription rate exactly the same for close to seven years now, then I'm good with that.

Transfers should be cheaper it isn't hard to do the tech is simple as hell and the fact it cost more then the sub cost is just outright stupid.

I can get pets costing 10$ and mounts costing 20$ because there is work put into making them.

There is no work at all into the transfer it was a teach made years ago and its all automated. 1 transfer cost 3/4 the same cost as a xpac and 5$ less then 60days of WOW.

Its a joke and its greed plan and simple.

Just because you can reroll on another server so easy dose not mean others can.

I have played my Paladin since WOTLK it is and will forever be my main toon I can not just go to another server and make another Paladin And many others like me feel this way.

Hell blizzard would save some money if they just let people get off low pop servers for a 1 time free transfer and shut those servers down. They mite even make money from it.

As I said for some who is attached to there toon it mite be easy'er to just outright unsub then to reroll on another server.

But like you said we would have to agree to disagree.

I just think it is really greedy they charge more for a transfer then any other MMO out there and don't even offer free ones.

Only reason Blizzard charges 25$ for it cause they know they can do it. Cause it dose not matter to them if people pay it or not cause some will stay subbed even if they are the last person on the server.

CRZ is prof they know there is a Server POP problem they just refuse to fix it the right way.

---------- Post added 2013-02-05 at 03:23 AM ----------

And the part where Ghostcrawler said, that people raid 10 man for the lewt, not for the fun.

You do know that a lot of people dont care what Ghostcrawler says just for the simple fact of the pore choice's he has made since CATA right.

Remember his Dungeons are hard post......point proven.

[Deleted]

This is your statement:



Your saying that this statement refutes my premise that Heroic raiders still have to and will continue to have to run LFR.

Indeed! All you will find in LFR right now is alts and unlucky people (statistical anomalies) and casual players who don't do their weekly homework (nothing wrong with them btw). You won't find main heroic raiders in LFR anymore.

Taking your statement at face value:
Raids started Oct 3, its now Feb 4th so thats 4 months that you could of raided.
You stated that you have not had to run LFR for months (so that means at least two months)

I barely played last 2 months (did one raid to help out some friends, refused any loot, did nothing to get loot, also did not even turn in my weekly charm stuff while having 800-900 of the tokens).

So your statement is that in 1 to maybe 2 months of raiding you got higher than 483 ilevel in every slot on your main spec AND on your off spec.

Indeed jax, MoP sept 25 release, week after raiding was open. We are now well 4 months past that.

Here some details. I raided twice a week, 4 hrs a day. Shadow priest 10m with heal OS competing with 3 MS healers 1 OS healer on loot, and with 2 clothies, a boomkin, and an ele for MS (no other priests, so all spi cloth was mine). Gear distribution priority based on amount of items you received. Normal standby rotation, sometimes cleverly adapted to loot tables. Admit I did get VP cap every week, also gamed Sha coins. Guild disband first week of december, progress 6/16 H with ilvl 496 or so for both specs (mind you MSV H drops 502 which has been on farm). Quit WoW after disband. Sub still runs, tic toc tic toc. Only upgrades I could still get from LFR are tier pieces, but they're not as good as what I have. I checked other priests on my realm how well geared they were at time and it was similar. Apart from someone getting their caps and doing their weekly grinds and content there is nothing I did special, and, my whole guild was geared like this before disband ie. near BiS T14N. Point being of this long text? There's nothing special in the details!

So if you are, 2 months later, 8 weeks of grinding later, still not 496 then you are either not doing the content (go get VP cap, Sha, ...) or you are plain flippin' unlucky like you and your bow which is by itself incredibly rare given the nature of your raid team (25m) and the amount of hunters (4, all completed quest, none have the sha touched agility weapon on either LFR or N or H).

I would like to underline that having to do Elegon LFR for "that trinket" is completely different from having to do ICC25N to get "that trinket" due to loot sharing, drop chance, and lack of charms. I was actually unlucky getting that item (right before guild disband) since I had used charm on N/HC and LFR every week. After 8 or 9 weeks I finally had the trinket, on LFR difficulty.

I think we find that my premise... that many people doing heroics still need gear. Yes the top .001% of raiders probaly dont, but I doubt even they would come here and pretend to have geared out two different specs in 483+ gear in 2 months...

Any average guild can do a full clear in the first week. Which means you had ToeS on farm for 10 weeks, HoF on farm for 12 weeks, MSV for God knows how long. That is normal difficulty, but also you'll get loot from heroic difficulty.

In your case you're unlucky, just like I have without a shed of a doubt with simple statistic analysis shown that all your hunters have been unlucky and that your example is nothing more or less than an appeal to pity.

[Kanadei]

Raids started Oct 3, its now Feb 4th so thats 4 months that you could of raided.
You stated that you have not had to run LFR for months (so that means at least two months)

So your statement is that in 1 to maybe 2 months of raiding you got higher than 483 ilevel in every slot on your main spec AND on your off spec.

Just chiming in here.

I raided from October to December on a Prot pally, only cleared 10/16 and was 491 prot and 486 ret when I stopped.

Recently I made a hunter, it hit 90 on the 4th of January and is currently 485 (486 with valor shoulders tonight or tomorrow).

Thats 3 sets in only 3 months of raiding over 485, and my hunter has only cleared 8/16.

Maybe I'm incredibly lucky, maybe your estimates are off.

I'm going with option B...

[Andeus]

Haven't thought this through, it just popped up and sounded interesting:

Keep the thunderforged thing and make achievements separate again, but 1 player can only get a kill / raid clear achievement either in 25 or 10-man version.
Essentially if you kill a boss, say eg. Tortos, in 10-man you'll get the 10-man achievement and from that point when you kill him again in a 25-man raid you get nothing. What that means is that you're no longer eligible for the "25-man Raid clear/meta achievement", since it would require achievement-kills on all bosses to get the meta.

Thunderforge items give incentive for 25-man raiding and people to feel less inclined to also clear 10 man. The above mentioned raid-size achievement lock further consolidates that by making raiders not wanting to run both types of raids for progression.

Q:So what about after they are done with progression and metas and killed everything on heroic in their respective size-raid?

If a raid is at that point where they have cleared everything, chances are they got most of the gear they need and going into farming the other raid-size too would seem unappealing. Some people might prefer to do it, but they will do it out of free will rather than feel forced to go get more gear to help them progress faster like it was in WotLK where 25-mans also felt that they had to do 10-man raiding to get the loot.

So both raids will share the same difficulty and be comparable as they are today, each raid size will compete with just their own raid size guilds and gear (minus thunderforged items) is the same.

Q: What if I'm in a 10-man guild which disbands mid-raid tier and now I want to join a 25-man guild?

That would be an interesting point. I suppose: tough luck
Get through your trial and consolidate your raid spot for the next tier?
No idea

[Radio]

I am of the opinion that less and less people will be willing to lead / organise / run 25M guilds unless Blizzard gives a ridiculously huge content/gear advantage to 10s, since players will always gravitate gradually towards the path of least resistance.

If 10 mans were distinctively easier than 25s while providing greater or equal gear, the playerbase would gradually move in that direction, making it gradually harder for 25 diehards to find / form 25 guilds. If 25 mans were distinctively easier than 10s while providing greater or equal gear, the playerbase would gradually move in that direction, making it gradually harder for 10 diehards to find / form 10 guilds. If 10s and 25s have no distinct advantage over the other (as it is now) and provide equal gear, then the playerbase will gradually move in the direction of 10s (raid size logistics), making it gradually harder for 25 diehards to find / form 10 guilds.

The point is: no matter what size a player prefers, as long as the playerbase is gradually moving in an opposite direction, it is going to become increasingly more difficult for them to stick to their choice, which only perpetuates the cycle until their target raid size completely dies.

I believe that as long as the raid sizes are different, keeping the raiding game fair will only cause the trend to keep moving towards more and more 10 mans. I also believe that switching to a medium size (only 15 mans, etc) will only frustrate players and cause more issues than it's worth, some players want large raids, some players want small raids, some players even want medium and solo raids. Adapting to a single raid size only limits choice.

So, if we want to keep the raid sizes fair, but keep 25s from dying, I believe we need to work on the prestige/identity/etc of the raid sizes. Give players rewards which help them identify with a particular raid size, but without allowing a character to earn rewards from both raid sizes at once, in order to not punish collectors.

My personal favourite solution for making 25s more appealing without being unfair to 10s:

1. KEEP THE LOOT BETWEEN RAID SIZES FAIR

2. Separate achievements/titles for both difficulties that can only be earned ONCE, an example: Not able to get Light of Dawn if you have Bane of the Fallen King, and vice versa.

This means that the player has a permanent record of which difficulty he completed each boss on, and neither raid size will feel compelled to do both sizes because the rewards are mutually exclusive.

The only potential drawback of this is circumstances where a 25 guild can downscale to 2-3 10 mans because they prefer the 10 man title, but as long as the raid gearing speed is kept fairly even between the two raid sizes, this shouldn't be too much of a problem. Additionally, 25 guilds that do so risk being ridiculed for cheesing 10 man which will be obvious by their achievement log and the lack of a 25 man title over their heads.

Also... these mutually exclusive titles would preferably be character bound rather than account bound, similar to the gladiator system. This would give the option for people to get both titles on different toons (lots of 25 players do like to run alt 10s) without having both on ONE toon due to account-bound titles.

3. Do not extend the titles system above to the appearance of gear (colour differences at most, still character bound to not force collectors to raid both sizes).

4. Do not give 25 raids more flasks etc etc, this will honestly not solve anything logistically, and will just mean 25 guilds have better cash flow which would make it easier to fund BoEs / enchants / gems / legendaries (making 25s gear faster)

5. This could be very important: When creating a fight for 10 and 25 man, go beyond the standard tuning game that is currently played when balancing a fight for both difficulties. Feel free to even design the entire fight differently for the two difficulties while keeping the lore the same. This could end up causing a lot of work to do but would probably make raiding either raid size feel more unique and rewarding. 25s and 10s would no longer feel like "X fight would be better if the other raid size didn't have to be accounted for".

6. Either cheaper transfers or cross realm guilds, I prefer the latter.


Could probably fit a few more things in here, but this is what I can come up with from the top of my head at this moment. I was personally a long term 25 raider who is now raiding 10s in Pandaria due to having less time in my life and needing to play more casually, and 10 guilds are generally better platforms for casual play at the moment.


TL;DR:
- keep loot / gold flow / consumables fair, making any raid size easier won't solve anything in the long term
- work on raid size identity
- character bound mutually exclusive titles/achis for differing raid sizes
- raid sizes boss mechanic balancing focuses more on design instead of numbers tuning, to the point of the occasional completely different fight design (same lore)
- cross realm guilds or cheaper transfers or both
- 25 mans will always be harder to lead and blizzard won't be able to do a thing about it

[Buxton McGraff]

Blizzard very rarely listens to the customers on important issues. They have their idea of how the game should be played, and they don't care what the players think about that. They spend more time restricting players and forcing them into the melting pot of how they think people should be playing. They didn't like the dungeon rep grind so they removed it and replaced it with dreadful dailys that most players hate. They didn't like that people could macro their rotation to 1 button, so they prevented it. What they need to realize is that first and foremost this is a GAME. People log on to play and have fun, and it's never fun to be forced to play the way somebody else wants you to play. Who cares if people did dungeons for rep? Who cares if people had 1 macro for their whole rotation? Let people play how they want, instead of restricting them to your idea of how things should be ran... This is why they're constantly losing subscribers, and why WoW has continued on this downward spiral in horrible quality.

[Deleted]

I have a core I5, 8 gigs ram, 660 ti video card, 2x ssd hard drives. With that said. I still wont raid 25 man lag fests. Its bad enough doing Sha with 10 fps. In 10 mans, i hover around 30. Thats sad. And I can only imagine other peoples computers having to deal with 25 man and world bosses.

25 man raiding is dead and will stay dead. Hmm lets see. Do I want to depend on 15 other people, make things more difficult for the same rewards. Or do it with 10 people where I wont lag as heavily, have less stress and easier management including pugging. Yeah, Ill stick with 10 man raiding forever lol.

Either you are incredibad with computers, or you haven't set anything up properly.
30 FPS in 10 mans with that setup? 10 in 25 man? I ran with 40 - 50 FPS in combat with my i5 2500k and my old GTX 570.

[Deleted]

Blizzard very rarely listens to the customers on important issues. They have their idea of how the game should be played, and they don't care what the players think about that. They spend more time restricting players and forcing them into the melting pot of how they think people should be playing. They didn't like the dungeon rep grind so they removed it and replaced it with dreadful dailys that most players hate. They didn't like that people could macro their rotation to 1 button, so they prevented it. What they need to realize is that first and foremost this is a GAME. People log on to play and have fun, and it's never fun to be forced to play the way somebody else wants you to play. Who cares if people did dungeons for rep? Who cares if people had 1 macro for their whole rotation? Let people play how they want, instead of restricting them to your idea of how things should be ran... This is why they're constantly losing subscribers, and why WoW has continued on this downward spiral in horrible quality.

Pretty much this. Yes those things might downgrade some people experience but by the end of the day it's their choice.

Yes I know the idea of lively world sounds great but if it's forced then the reality will make sure to backfire and turn it into anything but what developers wished for. Yes we all like the idea of players doing quests together, helping each other out and doing their best to create overall friendly atmosphere, but the current implementation of it turns it into a "damn other players stalling my daily progress", "why you taunt and reset my rare spawn" and other kinds of forced stress that people WILL NOT FIX. It's way too late for that and one question remains: "Is this the vision of lively world Blizzard strives for?" if it is then I much rather see it dead.

Same for one button rotations. Yes it does sound bad doesnt it? instead the idea of WoW players executing complex rotations succesfully does sound better doesnt it? Is that the reality? No it is not. Yeah I bet this post will be responded by somebody who has a group of friends whom with s/he/it plays regularly without macros and such... yeah, awesome for s/he/it but s/he/it is not a majority. If that wouldn't be the case sites like "Lazy Macro" or 3rd party software like "you know the name that starts with P" wouldnt exist to begin with. And let us all stop pretending that we all care if that one DPS did his high DPS in LFG/R in a legit manner or not.

Also on topic:
The issue of raidig format is not because it's this small or this big. The issue is that it constantly changes and doesnt catter to one demographic.
People who liked 40man left and never came back.
People who liked 25man left and never came back.
People who liked equal reward for 10 and 25man left and never came back.

How am I sure of that? it was once stated that WoW has less active players than total accounts. kinda fitting to my statement above dont you think? Yes I know... i cant prove that's the bigger or smaller reason of WoW subscription loss, but, you who wish to respond to this post of the post, also cant prove that isnt the bigger or smaller reason of Wow subscription loss.

[MoanaLisa]

Blizzard very rarely listens to the customers on important issues. They have their idea of how the game should be played, and they don't care what the players think about that.

The very same thing can be said about movies, television shows, books, music CD's, and practically anything else you can think of that you consume for entertainment. We don't have much of a say about how those turn out either. We either listen, read, watch or not.

Game design studios design a game. If we like it, we play it. If we don't like it, we play something else. It's not complicated.

For my money Blizzard already listens too much to players often at the expense of the quality of the game. There's really no reason why Blizzard should cave to customer demands--all conflicting in various ways--as to how they should design their games.

On-topic: The one thing that I really do agree that they should do that they're not (or haven't yet) is separate the achievements for 10/25 raid tiers.

[Talen]

I have to agree. It would be nice if both raids were equal and everyone could raid the size they like but 25 man raiders get forced into 10s because its easier to run the raid. There are no 25man pugs unlike in Wrath where you had pugs for both sizes.

Higher iLevel drew players to the format so a lot of the logistics problems weren't there, or at least mitigated.

So if we go back to the Wrath model

You get everything bad that came with it and everything Blizzard moved away from.

You get players forced or obligated into 25s. You get 10 man guilds being wrecked. You get game balance and longevity issues. And more. And you also get a huge upcry from players who now have to raid 25s to get gear.

Dont people raid in 10man guilds because they are with their friends and only have <9 of them? There were lots of 10man guilds in Wrath and no one complained about being forced to run a certain size(probably because you could run both).

Players complained about a number of systems in LK. They do that anyway.

Trivial benefits, justified due to the effort of 25 man raiding.

Gear is a major benefit. And most players put just as much effort into 10s as they do 25s.

Also you say people are after the gear, so as gear is so much easier avaiable in 10 man raiding, it's completly ok to neglect 25 man raids and force people into it because its more comfortable for you?

25s aren't neglected. Nor is gear more available in 10s; ironically it is more available in 25s. Are players forced into 25s? Only to the degree that players want 25s but do not want to lead them which means there are fewer and its harder to get into them...which often creates a destructive loop condition.

You want to fix 25s? Then you need to start fixing the issues that make them harder to organise and run and remove the pressures that cause them to split up. You need to increase the number of raid leaders so there are more slots across more convenient times and increase the recruiting pool so replacements and PuGs are easier to find. And once it is as easy for players to find and enter a 25 man raid that suits their schedule as they can 10s, then you will start to see 25 making a slow comeback.

lovely how you decided to skip the part where the personal dps requirements are usually 20% higher in 25 man.

And you don't seem to realise why they are higher. Put simply, in a 25 man raid, thanks to differences in buffs, CDs, uptime and so on....it is very easy to boost your DPS without any extra effort on your part.

And the part where there is much less space to move in 25 man.

Which is a popular argument based on the allegation that Blizzard doesn't actually balance an encounter around such factors. What you'll find is that some mechanics are easier in 25s, others easier in 10s and that Blizzard tries to balance to give a similar overall difficulty.

And the part where it is more difficult to manage a huge group than a tiny.

Yes, but the extra effort required by the raid leader has already been noted.Most players don't get involved in management though.

And the part where Ghostcrawler said, that people raid 10 man for the lewt, not for the fun.

Loots important. But if you think GC and Blizzard mean that, you are mistaken. Players raid 10s for lots of reasons. Before, they went were the loot was...25s. Now they can get the loot in 10s, other factors such as fun, raiding with friends and life can have a much bigger say.

EJL

[Deleted]

You get everything bad that came with it and everything Blizzard moved away from.

WotLK system was a failure, but it was still much better than the current completely broken system. What Blizzard needs to do is scrap the whole thing, go back to the TBC model and work off of that. In particular, have separate raids for 10 and 25 mans.

You get players forced or obligated into 25s. You get 10 man guilds being wrecked.

You seem to have no problem with players being "forced and obligated" into 10s in the current system with 25 man guilds being wrecked, but have a huge problem with them being "forced and obligated" into 25s. Can you at least try to come up with a self-consistent position?

Yes, but the extra effort required by the raid leader has already been noted.Most players don't get involved in management though.

As has been the higher skill requirement and less room for mistakes of individual players in 25s. Your ridiculous idea that this is somehow just about one or few persons shows how little clue you have of what it takes to do 25 man raiding, and 25 man raiding in the current system in particular. And at the end of the day it does not matter where exactly the difficulties lie, the fact and reality is that 10 mans offer a much easier path to the rewards for everyone, that needs to be fixed and 25 mans must get their effort/reward significantly improved to allow players equal, free choice to play the mode they prefer.

[Vorondil]

So much this.

Not even my normal raiders have a proper idea of how much work goes in to maintain a successful 25-man raiding guild to appreciate how much the officers sacrifice.

During raid we have to plan the roster and rotate people in and out depending on progression or gear. Then comes raid leading the actual encounter (or as they say, herding 24 cats). After the boss dies? Loot distribution which usually comes with some PMs about how who needs what, who rolled on what by mistake and stuff. To minimise downtime the rest go on ahead to clear the trash to the next boss while the officers do rotation of the raiders again based on progression/ gear needs.

Repeat this throughout the raid. And there's problem-solving too for progression fights.

Outside of raid, people seem to think the officers idle about dangling their legs over the guild bank. Allow me to dispel that ideal situation.

When raid's not going on, officers are:

- Discussing if trials passed or failed, then approaching said trials to relay this.
- Acting as councillors to every guild member and their dog for any problems they encounter. Or just plain QQ.
- Sorting out logistics like flask/ pot/ food mats for the Guild Bank.
- Recruiting on various mediums like in-game Trade Chat, official forums, fan sites (aka WoWhead, MMO-Champion, WoWProgress, Guild OX).
- Researching how to solve any problems the raid encounters.
- Trawling logs for hiccups or screwups.
- Managing DKP or whatever other loot distribution system you may use.
- Reviewing attendance and attitude of raiders.

It's VERY hard work especially when you already have a full-time job like all my fellow officers do. Why do we do this? Because we LIKE 25-man raiding and stepped up to the job. Does it mean we enjoy all this extra work though? No. Given the chance to find another person who can take over my place, I'd love to be a normal raider. That is not the case though, and this situation where recruitment is so hard for a format that really gives us nothing of value over an easier managed 10-man format is wearing us very thin.

Errm, learn to raid with grown ups:
have an epgp loot system, no thinking required.
ASK people to swap out for others depending on they need loot or not, if this doesn't work out -> switch out by PR (if using epgp) or highest ranking on deserving loot in any other system (requires 'thinking' in some cases tho)
on progress bosses this might not work out perfectly, but don't act as if it's so hard, unless you're raiding with 16 year old people, or people who act like they're 16.

[phyx]

lovely how you decided to skip the part where the personal dps requirements are usually 20% higher in 25 man.
And the part where there is much less space to move in 25 man.
And the part where it is more difficult to manage a huge group than a tiny.
And the part where Ghostcrawler said, that people raid 10 man for the lewt, not for the fun.

Or the part where the same job has to be done with 3x more people, leaving a lot more room for mistake,

Also, really? 25s are an undertuned joke? First time I entered 10man Wote or any encounter for that matter (mind you we were mostly in blues/craftables) we had 3minutes left on the enrage where we couldn't kill it on with 25. If anything is an undertuned joke, it's 10s. The only fight where 10s have it harder is Garalon.

[Talen]

WotLK system was a failure, but it was still much better than the current completely broken system. What Blizzard needs to do is scrap the whole thing, go back to the TBC model and work off of that. In particular, have separate raids for 10 and 25 mans.

The current system solves, or at least mitigates, every problem the LK model had. And the LK model is pretty much the TBC model with raids available to all.

What the current system does not have is a strong reason for players to raid 25s and without that, players go for the format that they prefer. However, without something to draw players to 25s, the logistics issues for 25s become much more pronounced.

You seem to have no problem with players being "forced and obligated" into 10s in the current system with 25 man guilds being wrecked, but have a huge problem with them being "forced and obligated" into 25s. Can you at least try to come up with a self-consistent position?

It is consistent. I don't want players forced or obligated into either format but to be able to run the format they like.

But....the solutions generally presented for this don't do that. Very often, they are of the "I don't care about 10s....just do something to make them move back to 25s so ***I*** can raid the format I want".I'm very much against that mindset.

As has been the higher skill requirement and less room for mistakes of individual players in 25s.

A position many have put forward and more, including Blizzard, don't agree with. Indeed, Blizzard likes 25s because they DO offer room for a greater variety of skillsets and are more flexible than 10s, which they see as envisaging greater personal responsibility. Mistakes are inevitable in either format but 25s also have more mechanics for recovery.

point is, this argument is popular with people who want to run down 10s. It is, however, wrong.

And at the end of the day it does not matter where exactly the difficulties lie, the fact and reality is that 10 mans offer a much easier path to the rewards for everyone, that needs to be fixed and 25 mans must get their effort/reward significantly improved to allow players equal, free choice to play the mode they prefer.

In which case you are yet another player who is willing to kill off 10s simply to allow you to raid 25s.

As it is, I think knowing where the problems are and knowing why players choose 10s is important.

If you or I or anyone wants to raid what do we do? We decide if we want to be part of a guild, or if LFR will satisfy us.

Most players stop there. They get their raid fix, they get their gear, they get enough raid content to last the patch, they see the story and they have little reason to move on.

If they want something better title, etc they can PuG or find a guild. Are they looking for a specific format? Probably no. And this is where the problem begins. If they simply want a PuG...it'll be 10s. 25s offers PuGs little or nothing though they may be able to fill a slot in a 25 man run with a missing player.

And if they want something more permanent....unless they want 25s specifically, the lack of raid leaders for 25s means there are going to be vastly more 10s around for them to join, and they'll very likely find one at a time that suits their schedule. And if they do want 25s, odds are those on server aren't recruiting, aren't filled so you can't expect a raid for a few weeks or don't suit your schedule.

What do you get from this? A raid equally as challenging, requires just as much effort and offering equal quality gear but which requires more effort to join.

Or they can form their own guild and raid team...in which case, they are far more likely to have 9 friends than 24, or will start raiding as soon as they get 1 players; even if they do plan on becoming a 25 man raid they're more likely to split into 2 10 man teams before then.

EJL

[Deleted]

Or the part where the same job has to be done with 3x more people, leaving a lot more room for mistake,

Also, really? 25s are an undertuned joke? First time I entered 10man Wote or any encounter for that matter (mind you we were mostly in blues/craftables) we had 3minutes left on the enrage where we couldn't kill it on with 25. If anything is an undertuned joke, it's 10s. The only fight where 10s have it harder is Garalon.

You can boost a lot more people in 25mans, than you can in 10mans. A lot of fight requires 2 healers for 10mans, which means the healers cant boost the other 50% of the healers, like in 25man, where you only need 3 good healers and 2-3 bad ones to be successful. Same with DPS. The only thing that makes 25mans (challenging) is you need about 20 people not to fuck up and on some fights it IS harder. But when your saying Garalon is the only hard one....then well, how about heroic will of the emperor, if you've even done heroic content? Classes with not very good cooldowns, not alot of CC, less disparity then you'd get with 25mans.

It's fine to be all lolcakes and say your favorite mode is harder, but comparing stuff like "Oh this guild killed it on 25man, then breezed through in 10man" well yes, they already did they training in the 25man tactics. I enjoy 25 man more, healing is more hectic and more fun, but 25 man and 10man both bring their challenges and a boss always favors one side.

As has been the higher skill requirement and less room for mistakes of individual players in 25s. Your ridiculous idea that this is somehow just about one or few persons shows how little clue you have of what it takes to do 25 man raiding, and 25 man raiding in the current system in particular. And at the end of the day it does not matter where exactly the difficulties lie, the fact and reality is that 10 mans offer a much easier path to the rewards for everyone, that needs to be fixed and 25 mans must get their effort/reward significantly improved to allow players equal, free choice to play the mode they prefer.

No, i'm sorry but 25 man doesn't require a higher skill requirement and less room for mistakes, it requires 75% of the raid to boost the other 25% to be successful. You have an equal free choice to play the mode you prefer, if you prefer 25man raiding then you do that. You are recruiting for 15 more people, so you are going to have a harder time recruiting that. But you dont have to recruit 15 AMAZING people, you just need to recruit 15 "decent" people. 10mans and 25mans have difficulty recruiting, a huge chunk of good raiders have left the game or moved to other servers it seems, cause we struggle to recruit for 10mans on my server, yet we would prefer to do 25mans.

[Beefhammer]

Again, why does one need incentive other than the challenge of 25s if they are harder since you guys seem to claim you do it for the challenge. Players have spoken loudly. They would rather do 10s then deal with the problems that inherently come with 25s. If you want to run 25s then run 25s and be happy. If you want to run 10s, then run 10s and be happy. Both are equally challenging in terms of content. That is all that should matter. Outside factors such as recruiting and management are guild issues not Blizzards. If only a few want to run 25s that is fine Blizzard will still produce content for both sizes. This is really people creating solutions for a non problem.