1. #1021
    Quote Originally Posted by Tax View Post
    Perhaps, but they havent said anything about an icd on the proc. I doubt they will let us chain proc AS non stop if were in a position of tanking a bunch of adds at once. Some of the time zero procs, or depending on the fight a bunch of procs. Sounds like a gimmicky and lazy design choice.
    That is exactly how Revenge has worked for the last 3-4 years, I don't think there will be an ICD.

  2. #1022
    Deleted
    I like it(glad that they didn't raped us). Glad that Blizz listen to us(it is impossible to please all afterall). Now, if i remember exactly, they said somewhere that SotR will work with haste(now it has a basic 1.5sec cooldown) which also bring joy to my eyes.
    AS didn't had any ICD and i see no point in putting it now...

  3. #1023
    Quote Originally Posted by 30cmnobaffs View Post
    they said somewhere that SotR will work with haste(now it has a basic 1.5sec cooldown) which also bring joy to my eyes.
    That doesn't really make it work with haste, since you shouldn't be clipping the buff anyway, I'd be glad if they made it 3 seconds to easier track the buff

  4. #1024
    Quote Originally Posted by Xs View Post
    That doesn't really make it work with haste, since you shouldn't be clipping the buff anyway, I'd be glad if they made it 3 seconds to easier track the buff
    But it doesn't matter if you clip ShoR, it simply appends the new duration to the remaining time left on the buff.

    Such a change would also make Holy Avenger pointless for tanks, as you generate Holy Power faster than you can spend it if you can only dump it every 3 seconds.

  5. #1025
    Quote Originally Posted by Butler Log View Post
    But it doesn't matter if you clip ShoR, it simply appends the new duration to the remaining time left on the buff.
    Hadn't noticed that

  6. #1026
    Quote Originally Posted by Xs View Post
    Hadn't noticed that
    Yep, that's how you get things like this happening:



    I've had ShoR have a 20+ second duration before now.

  7. #1027
    Quote Originally Posted by Butler Log View Post
    Yep, that's how you get things like this happening:



    I've had ShoR have a 20+ second duration before now.
    Ha, I've never noticed since I run Sanctified Wrath so its more of a constant stream timed with melee hits

  8. #1028
    With HA and GoAK you can pretty much cover nearly 40 seconds of combat with a ~50% damage cooldown, and then have another 6 seconds of ShoR banked during GoAK to add to the total duration. Tag a Divine Protection to the end and you have a major amount of extra mitigation up for almost an ENTIRE MINUTE. (and then only a minute until HA is ready again )

    This makes add tanking at Grand Empress so much safer.
    Last edited by Butler to Baby Sloths; 2013-02-05 at 12:54 PM.

  9. #1029
    Quote Originally Posted by Butler Log View Post
    With HA and GoAK you can pretty much cover nearly 40 seconds of combat with a ~50% damage cooldown, and then have another 6 seconds of ShoR banked during GoAK to add to the total duration. Tag a Divine Protection to the end and you have a major amount of extra mitigation up for almost an ENTIRE MINUTE. (and then only a minute until HA is ready again )
    Yeah I remember the lulz playing about with it when it was the Ret ability, some of the stuff you can do is hilarious

  10. #1030
    Interesting change. I'm glad they didn't touch haste, though i'm curious as to what this will mean for reforging/gemming ect and whether this change - changes anything Which i don't think it will for those going the haste route.
    Last edited by Xucuroz; 2013-02-05 at 01:10 PM.
    We are warriors, born from the light
    An army for freedom, defenders of life
    Warriors, euphoria will rise
    Returning from darkness we bury all lies

  11. #1031
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Butler Log View Post
    With HA and GoAK you can pretty much cover nearly 40 seconds of combat with a ~50% damage cooldown, and then have another 6 seconds of ShoR banked during GoAK to add to the total duration. Tag a Divine Protection to the end and you have a major amount of extra mitigation up for almost an ENTIRE MINUTE. (and then only a minute until HA is ready again )

    This makes add tanking at Grand Empress so much safer.
    Pretty much the same result with SW. Except that you get 20% increased healing taken and 44% increased self healing for 30 seconds aswell.

    It is hillarious with SW during bloodlust. Can use J-J-J rotation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Xucuroz View Post
    Interesting change. I'm glad they didn't touch haste, though i'm curious as to what this will mean for reforging/gemming ect and whether this change - changes anything Which i don't think it will for those going the haste route.
    It doesn't change anything.

  12. #1032
    Deleted
    Oh hai guys. I'm back from a week long ban for saying zzz!

    Firstly, I'm excited to see Firefly33 is arguing with everyone as per usual (<3)

    Secondly, this Paladin change won't change anything... at all. It'll make dodge/parry gear just more desirable than crit/haste gear, which isn't even a fix.

    Lastly, no MerinPally's drunken outbursts make me go something something.

  13. #1033
    Deleted
    I am not argueing anything ( if you refer to my last pot ) haha. Just stating that SW and HA brings almost the same result, I think that they are both viable but with my gearing strategy, only SW is viable for me. However for others both are very much viable.

    SW brings sligthly less HoPo but makes up for it with the increased healing.

    Also, I mean, if someone states something, I love to counter argue sometimes. It is like business, you need competetion, having a monopoly is no good for development.

    So if someone says "X is awesome", I usually say "Y is also good what makes X better than Y", to get people thinking, and actually analyse their choice instead of blindly assuming that X is better than Y. ( This applies to pretty much everything from stats, talents, glyphs, gear, etc )

    I think it is very healthy in a discussion forum to have someone with opposing opinion, won't be much of a discussion otherwise!
    Last edited by mmoc4d8e5d065a; 2013-02-05 at 01:28 PM.

  14. #1034
    Deleted
    It was only playful banter

  15. #1035
    Deleted
    We like being playful here! Especially merin during weekends.

    Btw, I may sound hostile sometimes but I can assure you, strict smiles only policy here.

  16. #1036
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    We like being playful here! Especially merin during weekends.

    Btw, I may sound hostile sometimes but I can assure you, strict smiles only policy here.
    Oh I can imagine. You're our Protection Paladins version of Anaxie. Full of joy and happiness and rainbows spew out from every sentence. :3

  17. #1037
    Bloodsail Admiral Splosion's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    The armory
    Posts
    1,063
    Seems like we've got a cap on mastery that's lower than 99% (Lol'd at why that's likely to be).

    Loving the Grand Crusader changes though.

  18. #1038
    Deleted
    Was actually thinking about the GC change... It actually makes haste even MORE valuable when offtanking on tight enrage timers to make up for the lack of procs. Maybe not the most common scenario, but still.

  19. #1039
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    SW brings sligthly less HoPo but makes up for it with the increased healing.
    It's not slightly less, it's a lot less.

    Holy Avenger provides 0.132 HP/sec.
    Sanctified Wrath provides 0.037 HP/sec.

    I'd also argue that the healing taken increase is negligible if you have a Disc Priest in your raid comp. On many solo tank fights I can achieve as high as 35% of overall healing done on myself with Sacred Shield. Add in other healer's absorbs and that can be as high as 50%. Sacred Shield doesn't benefit at all from the healing increase and i'm assuming other healer's absorbs don't either.

    I must admit, I find it a little odd that in a discussion a few pages back you stated that you never get spiked below 70% health yet you advocate a healing increase rather than straight up damage prevention. Surely in situations where tank damage is no issue, a healing increase cooldown (which you would be using for DPS anyways) will probably lead to an increase in overhealing?

    As for DPS, I believe that Holy Avenger is actually stronger in single target situations. That may differ if you choose to only soft-cap expertise however.
    Last edited by mmocc7215da24b; 2013-02-05 at 07:44 PM.

  20. #1040
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Auk View Post
    It's not slightly less, it's a lot less.

    Holy Avenger provides 0.132 HPG.
    Sanctified Wrath provides 0.037 HPG.

    I'd also argue that the healing taken increase is negligible if you have a Disc Priest in your raid comp. On many solo tank fights I can achieve as high as 35% of overall healing done on myself with Sacred Shield. Add in other healer's absorbs and that can be as high as 50%. Sacred Shield doesn't benefit at all from the healing increase and i'm assuming other healer's absorbs don't either.

    I must admit, I find it a little odd that in a discussion a few pages back you stated that you never get spiked below 70% health yet you advocate a healing increase rather than straight up damage prevention. Surely in situations where tank damage is no issue, a healing increase cooldown (which you would be using for DPS anyways) will probably lead to an increase in overhealing?

    As for DPS, I believe that Holy Avenger is actually stronger in single target situations. That may differ if you choose to only soft-cap expertise however.
    I didn't say that I never get spiked down below 70% health. I gave an example, thats all. It happens, but never just from boss auto attacks (boss melee swings in 10 is...) That said. I feel like you cannot differ how to theorycraft for static damage in-take, and how to theorycraft for burstier damage in take. ( Say, Empress adds, Emperor normal titan gas, etc, windlord last phase etc ), basically situations where you take more damage ( and predictably know before that you will take more damage ).

    You say that you can achieve as high as 35% overall healing done on yourself with sacred shield. And other healers absorb etc.
    That does not matter. You do not use your CDs overall, you use them when you need them. Granted, that you actually will need them.
    You use your CDs when you know that your own absorbs and healers absorbs and heals will not be enough. When you know you will take alot of damage.

    Now lets back up a bit and look at the actual HP gain from each spell.

    For model I am going to use a character with 25% haste.

    During an ideal situation ( You starting HA with both CS and J off cooldown )
    You will get off 5 CS and 4 judgments during HA. This leads to gain of 27 HoPo disregarding GC procs. During the HA. Not sure if we should disregard GC procs or not. Hmm, lets say we have the old system still.
    5 cs, 20% chance, that is 1 GC proc in average. Another 3 HoPo.

    So we are up to 30 HoPo during the duration of the HA. However, we need to consider the fact that SW lasts for 30 seconds.

    During the next 12 seconds after the HA. You would get off 2 judgements and 4 CS.
    That is another 6.8 HoPo, leading to a total off 36.8 HoPo during the 30 seconds.

    The SW is easier to check.

    13 judgements
    6 cs

    An average of 20.2 HoPo

    So that is a trade off from 16.6 HoPo vs taking 20% increased healing taken and doing 44% more self healing for 30 seconds.
    Nowhere near the extreme difference that you mentioned.

    So now we are talking a legitimate trade off. Which by extension means that any figth that is 100% physical damage will be pretty much neck and neck. ( Depends on your current mastery levels and how much self healing you do ).
    Ofc as you said, if you got healers with alot of absorbs, that scales better with HA than SW. Though, disc priests Spirit Shell scales with increased healing taken as far as I am aware. Not 100% sure though.

    Though any boss with magic damage heavy phase will favor SW.

    Also SW adds more dps (although negliable). Simply because during normal rotation, you push back J in favor of CS. In SW you push back CS in favor of J. J hits alot harder than CS causing SW to pull ahead.

    Which is an important point, since as I say so often, on how many figths do you even need the HA or SW for survivability purposes?
    I am not saying to never use HA, HA has some great uses. However a majority of the figths favor SW.
    Same that on some figths Eternal Flame is actually viable. And the current Tier 1 talent discussion between LAotL and SoL, they both have their uses on different figths. Not to mention the LH vs ES. Same goes for HA and SW, they have their own uses. Act accordingly.

    Bosses where I think HA is about equal to SW ( Read as, situational usage depending on your tactic for the fight )

    Dogs
    Spirit Kings

    Vizier
    Garalon ( ONLY if using Eternal Flames )
    Wind-Lord possibly, but still favor SW there.

    Fights where HA can actually be alot better than SW (also depending on tactic )

    Gara'Jal ( ONLY if you are tanking during enrage and healing is issue ) SW alot better for enrage purposes.
    Emperors
    Empress ( P2 only, if you can handle P2 with SW, SW pulls ahead )
    Sha of fear ( Pretty much same as above, HA is a nice CD to have, but if you can handle the figth without it, SW pulls ahead )

    Thing with HA is that it is situational on every fight that it is viable on, and SW hands down win out on the other fights.

    Also, one thing to remember with SW and HA for damage reduction purposes. The reason that HA wins out is because it continue to benefit you for longer than 30 seconds. On a lot of fights, the huge damage intake you take lasts shorter than 30 seconds.
    SW wins out if we are talking about a shorter duration. Say boss goes into a mini frenzy where he hits the tank alot for 10-15 seconds.
    I situation like that greatly benefits SW. Since SW will have 100% uptime on shorter durations, the same as HA, but will also provide increased healing.

    To illustrate with a picture using roughly 25% haste.

    More haste would:

    1. Make the HA line longer
    2. Make the initial SW line ( before the spikes ) longer. E.g. 50% haste would see the first drop at the 25s mark.
    3. Make the dips in the SW line shorter.

    Also yes, beautifully drawn paint graph because I am lazy. Does not need to be pretty get the point through

    Last edited by mmoc4d8e5d065a; 2013-02-05 at 10:19 PM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •