Why leaders of Kirin Tor are always human?

[Screwtape]

I feel the need to chime in on this Tolkien nonsense.

His writing is about so much more than telling a story or being clever; it's rife with (mostly Christian) allegory. No, he didn't "invent fiction" nor were any of the themes he wrote about original (what is), but if there was another writer before him that created the fantasy motif I don't know of them. The influences I do know of belong to the bardic tradition- like the Nibelungenlied or Sir Gawain- which cannot be considered modern fiction.

Yes, the theme of human weakness is prevalent in Tolkien's work, but his most repeated message is that which appears weak can be the strongest. Hell, that's practically the whole message of The Hobbit.

---------- Post added 2013-02-07 at 08:19 PM ----------

Kel'thuzad ceased to be human the moment he ascended. Until then, he was mere cult leader.

And by "mere cult leader" you mean a member of the Council of Six.

[krunksmash]

I feel the need to chime in on this Tolkien nonsense.

His writing is about so much more than telling a story or being clever; it's rife with (mostly Christian) allegory. No, he didn't "invent fiction" nor were any of the themes he wrote about original (what is), but if there was another writer before him that created the fantasy motif I don't know of them. The influences I do know of belong to the bardic tradition- like the Nibelungenlied or Sir Gawain- which cannot be considered modern fiction.

Yes, the theme of human weakness is prevalent in Tolkien's work, but his most repeated message is that which appears weak can be the strongest. Hell, that's practically the whole message of The Hobbit.

---------- Post added 2013-02-07 at 08:19 PM ----------



And by "mere cult leader" you mean a member of the Council of Six.

between getting kicked out of the six and becoming a lich he was the leader of the cult of the damned

[Screwtape]

I thought the discussion was about human mages and I interpreted Verdugo's post as saying that he was not a powerful mage before becoming a lich, which is not the case. If that's not what his post meant then I have no idea what he means.

[Arrashi]

I feel the need to chime in on this Tolkien nonsense.

His writing is about so much more than telling a story or being clever; it's rife with (mostly Christian) allegory. No, he didn't "invent fiction" nor were any of the themes he wrote about original (what is), but if there was another writer before him that created the fantasy motif I don't know of them. The influences I do know of belong to the bardic tradition- like the Nibelungenlied or Sir Gawain- which cannot be considered modern fiction.

Yes, the theme of human weakness is prevalent in Tolkien's work, but his most repeated message is that which appears weak can be the strongest. Hell, that's practically the whole message of The Hobbit.

---------- Post added 2013-02-07 at 08:19 PM ----------



And by "mere cult leader" you mean a member of the Council of Six.

Council of six should up they standards a little considering that mortal kel'thuzad got his ass handed to him by paladin runt and all-mighty jaina.

[Screwtape]

It was all *smacks lips* part of the plan.

[Mihalik]

I'm rather amused by these fanboi debates.

Folk who don't like em humies are always amazingly vocal about their dislike of humans. Going as far as outright calling the Lore they are so invested in trough the particular fanboism of their faction of choice outright mediocre or lame or whatnotever.

I would pay to read a study about why this happens.

Anyways, a bit more to the point. The best fantasy fiction around is always human centric, may they be the main protagonists or antagonists or both. In my humble opinion this is the only thing that makes it compelling. We are all humans, we have an indepth knowledge and understanding of the human condition and human nature. We are keenly aware of our shortcomings, our mundane nature and our limitations as we are of our inherent moral weakness and predisposition to evil, to greed and hunger for power. Dreaming of surpassing all this, overcoming, rising above is compelling.

How is living 10000 years in forest doing pretty much nothing, achieving nothing but being "one with nature" compelling? Let's be honest, that crap is boring and you need to introduce an outside catalyst to make the whole thing the least bit interesting. How is not a brief, frail and mortal life that seeks to leave a legacy not more interesting? After all...thats who we are...and once we are gone, all thats left us is what we leave behind.

The pattern goes around with most races.

Blizzard managed to some extent break this mold with the Orcs story off fall and redemption. And in the process produced Green Jesus, whom let's be honest is about as a human character as it can get. But he is green. But that's exactly what turned him into a fan favorite.

And also being really frank and honest. All fantasy is...is the reinterpretation of history or mythology, with a bit of surrealism introduced to the mix. That's why it is more mainstream then Science Fiction. While in Science Fiction you can push boundries and create new things from nothing and make people uncomfortable, fantasy will always be a safer realm.

[Armourboy]

Part of it is because Dalaran was originally a human city that mages flocked to so that they had a place of safety from the rest of the humans who disliked magic. The Kirin Tor was an organization set up to help teach at first mainly humans, but also some of the Elves as well. Over the years its mostly been a human organization with oversite from other races, mainly the Dragons and the Elves.

I also think part of the reason Humans tend to be the strong mages is that other than Rhonin, none of the human mages have ever learned how to use magic by drawing from the Well of Eternity. I think its the reason that you see Elves take a step back in Mage power, because for so long their magic flowed from another power source, where as Humans have mostly always had to learn to use what they could conjure from within. Its the reason Rhonin was such a billy bad ass in War of the Ancients, for the first time in his life magic flowed freely for him from the Well.

[thorkin69]

Because , like it or not , We humans run this sh*t !!!

[Lemons]

The high elves was the ones that taught them the Arcane

The high elves may have taught humans about the arcane, but they took it and ran with it. Humans are very good at magic, the elves were actually surprised how quickly they took it up.

And no this isn't a case of "humans are the best at everything"...orcs are crazy good at magic too. Gul'dan basically became one of the most powerful warlocks ever, and he did it all by his lonesome. He didn't even have the benefit of teachers like human mages had.

[Combatbutler]

The high elves may have taught humans about the arcane, but they took it and ran with it. Humans are very good at magic, the elves were actually surprised how quickly they took it up.

The power of magi comes after all mostly from knowledge, the humans got a kickstart, they received millennia worth of knowledge, the rest was mostly just dedication.

And no this isn't a case of "humans are the best at everything"...orcs are crazy good at magic too. Gul'dan basically became one of the most powerful warlocks ever, and he did it all by his lonesome. He didn't even have the benefit of teachers like human mages had.

I wouldn't say alone he was taught by Kil'jaeden after all.

[Haven]

This is nonsense. Absolute nonsense.
Lord of the Rings kind of set the trend with the human bashing. Read the book; all humans were easily corruptable, dimwitted, stupid cretins. The only 'human' hero of the book who wasn't was Aragorn, who is, arguably, not even human (numénor). The Wizards certainly aren't human, and the Elves cannot let a scene go by where they don't mention that 'Men are weak.' Those frail elves, by the way, are better swordsmen than the tougher built humans. They are stronger, wiser, faster, more magical... They've got pretty much everything on humans.
Orcs in Lord of the Rings are cannon-fodder, nothing more.

Now; that trend being set in that book is followed in nearly every story of fantasy ever written since. Humans are always depicted as weak, dimwitted cowards. Sure; the hero is often a human who overcomes all of their species-specific weaknesses, but those are a hand-full of the entire species. The rest is still described as lesser, and the wisest of human characters always, without exclusion, defer to the wisdom of Elves. Always.

Yet where are the elves in a crucial battle for Minas-Tirith? Fleeing to Valinor like pussies. Where were the elves when Erebor fell? They observed it from a safe distance. Sure, elves always go on about how humans are weak and corruptible, yet how often do you see a novel in which an elf protagonist saves the day? And how often do you see a human do it? All the time. Humans always make the last stand and win the day where elves failed millenia ago (or something along these lines). Elves may be wise, but they never have the courage, faith, and hope that grants humans their plot armor. In the end, elves don't even decide anything, they just stand around giving advice and looking wise and beautiful while humans do all the job. Common fantasy trope.

[Frontenac]

This is nonsense. Absolute nonsense.
Lord of the Rings kind of set the trend with the human bashing. Read the book; all humans were easily corruptable, dimwitted, stupid cretins. The only 'human' hero of the book who wasn't was Aragorn, who is, arguably, not even human (numénor). The Wizards certainly aren't human, and the Elves cannot let a scene go by where they don't mention that 'Men are weak.' Those frail elves, by the way, are better swordsmen than the tougher built humans. They are stronger, wiser, faster, more magical... They've got pretty much everything on humans.
Orcs in Lord of the Rings are cannon-fodder, nothing more.

I've read the books : Silmarillion, The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings. Yes, Men are weaker than Elves, more prone to diseases and greedy for power. However, they are also free from the fates and doom of the world (that's why they age and die), and everything that they desire comes to existence by their will. They were intended to be the instruments of God (Iluvatar) in the world, and are destined to sing in the Second Music of the Ainur after the end of times to make a new creation. But of course, Morgoth borked it all with his lies... They were not all evil and some of the greatest heroes in Middle-Earth were Men : Beren, Turin, Tuor, etc. The Numenorians were from the Race of Men too, the peek of mannish civilisation in Middle-Earth. Also, I wouldn't call Faramir, Eowyn, Theoden, Eomer, Imrahil of Dol Amroth, Denethor or even Ghân Buri Ghân the Wose dimwitted and cretins. Also, Sauron was mainly beaten by Men (Hobbits are counted amongst them by the way) and LotR ends with the beginning of the Domination of Men. So they are pretty much heroes in the book.

[Rhlor]

human is the master race

[Stir]

1. You think fantasy and fiction started with Tolkien? Wow that's sad. you're missing almost the entire point of the book too, which was that man was coming into its own :\

Reading comprehension. Buy some. No, really. I'll highlight some bits.

2. -Every- fantasy story? Really? You've read them all? The hero is the only one that's good or redeemable? No other characters? You cant' make generalizations like this and expect to be taken seriously.

Nearly every, was the word I used. And of course you cannot possibly understand that, when put in such a way, it is exactly that: A broad generalization. To make a point. Reading comprehension. Get some

3. Elves mature at the same rate as humans actually as we saw with Valeera Sanguinar. So your entire basis is flawed.

So you're saying that once you're an adult, you are incapable of learning anything new?

You're making assumptions based on your opinion rather than observations based on fact.

You're making assumptions based on confirmation bias rather than what I wrote. Good on you; carry on.

[Skytotem]

1. Wow, rude.

2. You seem to put more effort into insulting me than making your point clear.

3. I'm saying that your idea that it takes elves longer to learn things than humans is false. Rather, the fact that elves don't demonstrate greater competence is a symptom of bad writing, than a stylistic choice by blizzard. They've even implied as much in their twitter feeds.

4. Not -really- I'm not favoring information that proves me right I'm bringing up evidence that you're not discounting, you're just saying I can't 'comprehend' what you posted without actually challenging any of my counterpoints. Or anyone else's.

[Gothicshark]

Have you ever noticed the leaders of the Kirin tor are always Human? why?

Note: The high elves was the ones that taught them the Arcane

Because Dalaran and the Kirin Tor human constructs. Dalaran was a Human City that embraced the Arcane, and the Kirin Tor is the Organization of Humans to regulate the Arcane. Sure High Elves live in Dalaran, and some members of the Kirin Tor are Elves, but the traditions come from humans and not the Elves.

[Landin55]

Were better then you.....Deal with it.

[Gothicshark]

2. My issue is more with Blizzard making everything about orcs and humans,

WarCraft has always been about Orcs vs Humans, in fact the first WarCraft game was called Orcs & Humans.




So yah that is the name of the game.

[Landin55]

1. Wow, rude.

2. You seem to put more effort into insulting me than making your point clear.

3. I'm saying that your idea that it takes elves longer to learn things than humans is false. Rather, the fact that elves don't demonstrate greater competence is a symptom of bad writing, than a stylistic choice by blizzard. They've even implied as much in their twitter feeds.

4. Not -really- I'm not favoring information that proves me right I'm bringing up evidence that you're not discounting, you're just saying I can't 'comprehend' what you posted without actually challenging any of my counterpoints. Or anyone else's.

Actually no....Humans do learn things faster...its their natural gift...Elves were immortal and powerful and what took them centuries to create Humans learned and mastered in decades. Also many fantasy is greatly influenced by Tolkien. Tolkien to DnD to Warhammer then finally WoW. /serious.

[Redmage]

Because Dalaran is a human kingdom.

The only reason other races even go there is because it is one of the largest accumulations of arcane knowledge on Azeroth. It has sort of become a melting pot over the years where all races are welcome to come and teach and learn.