Two target cleave in 5.2 - Assassination vs Combat

[Maelstrom51]

Does anybody have some math on two target fights? Would multidotting with Deadly Poison + Rupture as Assassination be comparable to 40% Blade Flurry as Combat?

[Mazius]

There's no 2 target cleave boss fights in 5.2.
P.S. Assa wins tho (if it's not too bothering for you to keep track of rupture on 2 targets).

[Verain]

Wait, do you have numbers for this?

When blade flurry was nerfed down to 25%, assassination was ahead on two targets. At 40%, I actually doubt it.

[Maelstrom51]

Wait, do you have numbers for this?

When blade flurry was nerfed down to 25%, assassination was ahead on two targets. At 40%, I actually doubt it.

Well at 20% Blade Flurry was hardly a dps increase due to the energy loss. At two targets, 40% Blade Flurry will be ~20-25% dps increase. I feel like multidotting as Assassination will still be better.

[Carp The Fish]

Multi-dotting as Assassination certainly won't have the energy reduction factor at 2 targets that Combat does.
It's a trade-off.

Assassination: No energy reduction, RNG can make it look better on meters, but less focused (if there's a skull target, your damage on that skull is going to be less).
Combat: More concentration of single-target damage, with energy reduction as a trade-off.

Honestly, Combat is going to be better. As much as I love Rupture multi-dotting, it's probably going to be unrealistic for next tier's fights.

[eijin]

I do -not- have the numbers for this. starting off with that.

But mut has been ahead on single target more than 3% to begin with. Add in the fact that the bonuses (2 and 4 piece) both massively help mut more than combat (longer envenom/rupture vs longer SnD and the already energy starved mutilate getting 40% less cost on abilities vs combat's likely using shadow focus together with AR, so 40% less energy cost during AR being pretty bad) i could see mut getting even farther ahead.

So even if combat gets a bigger bonus from the second target than mutilate does, it still seems probable for mutilate to do more dps on exactly a 2 target fight. Mutilate also increases its single target damage from having that second rupture and combat lowers its single target DPS from having BF on (unless i missed them removing the energy penalty).

So, i guess im on the other side of the fence, i doubt combat would be ahead for 2 targets up the whole time, however i dont have the numbers for it either

---------- Post added 2013-02-06 at 02:38 PM ----------

Assassination: No energy reduction,

Keep in mind its actually an energy -gain- having rupture on a second target. Given not huge, like 3.75 energy per second? While combat will lose something of 3-4 energy per second from BF.

[Chult]

Bear in mind they haven't even really started doing a numbers pass to get damage where they want, and have discussed removing/reducing the Energy reduction of BF. So, it could change a bit before it hits live servers.

[eijin]

Bear in mind they haven't even really started doing a numbers pass to get damage where they want, and have discussed removing/reducing the Energy reduction of BF. So, it could change a bit before it hits live servers.

Removing the energy reduction i doubt will ever happen UNLESS they go back to making it a cooldown. They have stated they dont want it to just be a "keep it on all the time" thing.

[Carp The Fish]

Keep in mind its actually an energy -gain- having rupture on a second target. Given not huge, like 3.75 energy per second? While combat will lose something of 3-4 energy per second from BF.

I figured that was kind of obvious.
Also keep in mind that you're basically spending that energy to keep Rupture up on that second target.
If there was a third and fourth, you'd be correct in that it's an energy gain, but on 2 targets, the energy gain is pretty ineffectual.

And they NEED to take the damage reduction off of Blade Flurry now that it hits as hard as a punched balloon. 40% damage barely makes it better than other melee cleaves, and easily worse than casters.

[Kael]

I figured that was kind of obvious.
Also keep in mind that you're basically spending that energy to keep Rupture up on that second target.
If there was a third and fourth, you'd be correct in that it's an energy gain, but on 2 targets, the energy gain is pretty ineffectual.

And they NEED to take the damage reduction off of Blade Flurry now that it hits as hard as a punched balloon. 40% damage barely makes it better than other melee cleaves, and easily worse than casters.

The energy gain mitigates the loss and brings more to the spec, where blade flurry provides the damage and the mitigation to damage is in the lack of energy for hitting your main target. Why exactly do we "NEED" to be "better than other melee cleaves"? I'm not entirely sold it's that awful compared to most casters either, or we'd see lots of frost mages hitting legs on Garalon.

The new design makes us not horribly OP for 2-target fights and will be a gain for that silly spot where we're trying to half-AoE several targets. It might not be good for Garalon or Stone Guardians or Un'sok this tier compared to the old component, but it's not like we lost the only thing putting us on the map.

[Coldkil]

BF cleave will be less effective for sure - the point is the uptime. Even in it's nerfed form it needs a tradeoff; if assa has to manage multidotting (which can be tricky sometimes) combat instead has nothing to do apart pressing a button.

Anyway, i agree that using BF feels clunky and a slower gameplay is never fun. Maybe they can rework the cost and change the energy penalty with reduced damage overall or other options.

[Verain]

Well, I think fury and arms need to come down on cleave. We need to have a good spot here because it's a big part of why rogues were desired at all this tier- it certainly wasn't for the bulk of the world firsts that excluded rogues, for instance, for a variety of reasons.

That being said, I don't feel the 40% blade flurry is unworkable. The 25% one was a joke. The multi target feature of it probably will put combat rogues on top of that exact number of targets (5), not that such a situation arises much. It's very likely combat will be the top rogue spec on 2,3,4,5 targets.

The reason that I think C will top A with two targets isn't JUST intuition- there was some napkin math when the 25% one hit the PTR that showed A a bit ahead of C on two targets. With flurry strength almost doubled from that time, I doubt it is the case any longer.

[Maelstrom51]

The reason that I think C will top A with two targets isn't JUST intuition- there was some napkin math when the 25% one hit the PTR that showed A a bit ahead of C on two targets. With flurry strength almost doubled from that time, I doubt it is the case any longer.

Assassination wasn't just a bit ahead of combat with Blade Flurry at 25%. Turning Blade Flurry on at that point was only a ~3% dps increase, while multidotting as Assassination is ~25% dps increase by some napkin math I've done.

Any links to the math you have seen?

[eijin]

In general i'd rather BF go back to its older form. Most fights now-a-days (shy of SG) arent "2 targets the entire fight". Give it a 15s uptime and a 60s CD (or 90s effected by relentless strikes, would feel better that way and sync up with every other AR/SB if decided) and cause it to hit a second target for xx% damage with NO energy regain reduction. The attack speed you used to get was nice, but it was rolled into AR

Requires thought as to when to use it, not just fire and forget up at all times. a change as opposed to a slap in the face to rogues.

[Verain]

Didn't this thread have an Aldrianna quote on it earlier? I can't fish it up from work, but check the "5.2 changes" thread on EJ for what I considered compelling reasoning that a 40% BF will be ahead of A.

[Carp The Fish]

The energy gain mitigates the loss and brings more to the spec, where blade flurry provides the damage and the mitigation to damage is in the lack of energy for hitting your main target. Why exactly do we "NEED" to be "better than other melee cleaves"? I'm not entirely sold it's that awful compared to most casters either, or we'd see lots of frost mages hitting legs on Garalon.

Because then there's no reason to bring a Rogue over a warrior. Warriors bring Banners, better cleave (RNG based since most of it comes from Raging Blow, but still), on-par survivability, and a tank spec. Rogues bring Smoke Bomb (Demo Banner or Disc AoE Bubble, basically), similar cleave and...that's pretty much it, from my perspective.

In my opinion, they need to just re-design the thing some more.
2 targets gives 50% cleave, 3 targets gives 40% cleave, 4 targets means 30% cleave at 20% energy regen penalty, then a glyph to get rid of the energy cost (or 5% reduction, since that will still be significant in later tiers) at the expense of only transmitting yellow hits.

[eijin]

Because then there's no reason to bring a Rogue over a warrior. Warriors bring Banners, better cleave (RNG based since most of it comes from Raging Blow, but still), on-par survivability, and a tank spec. Rogues bring Smoke Bomb (Demo Banner or Disc AoE Bubble, basically), similar cleave and...that's pretty much it, from my perspective.

progressing through HMs i feel nothing has near the survivability of a rogue shy of a lock, although i sacrifice for it (feint mostly).

[RogueDurr]

Didn't this thread have an Aldrianna quote on it earlier? I can't fish it up from work, but check the "5.2 changes" thread on EJ for what I considered compelling reasoning that a 40% BF will be ahead of A.

I deleted it cause I re-read the quote and its not 100% clear/definitive. It depends on how you read it.

But these are facts
2-target BF @ 25% was 8% dps gain
2-target BF @ 40% is a 18% dps gain

For assa, 2 target multi dotting your not gonna see a huge dps increase with out versatility/redirect. Any time off the main target on the 2nd target will be a dps lose due to a lose in Deadly poison procs and other minor dps loses. Re-direct does make this minimal and makes it worth it, but going back and forth just to keep 2 ruptures going is not gonna yield much benefit and not really worth the effort.

[Maelstrom51]

For assa, 2 target multi dotting your not gonna see a huge dps increase with out versatility/redirect. Any time off the main target on the 2nd target will be a dps lose due to a lose in Deadly poison procs and other minor dps loses. Re-direct does make this minimal and makes it worth it, but going back and forth just to keep 2 ruptures going is not gonna yield much benefit and not really worth the effort.

This is 100% utterly false. With Deadly poison no longer stacking, you lose exactly one Instant DP tick by multidotting correctly. In addition, redirect does nothing at all with correct CP management (only switch targets at zero CP).

Now, with that covered, lets look at the loss of envenoms vs. the extra DP, Rupture, and Venomous wounds damage.
Is it a dps gain to Rupture on a single target at a loss of Envenoms? Yes. Therefore, it should be a dps gain to Rupture multiple targets, as long as it doesn't result in energy capping.

[RogueDurr]

This is 100% utterly false. With Deadly poison no longer stacking, you lose exactly one Instant DP tick by multidotting correctly. In addition, redirect does nothing at all with correct CP management (only switch targets at zero CP).

Now, with that covered, lets look at the loss of envenoms vs. the extra DP, Rupture, and Venomous wounds damage.
Is it a dps gain to Rupture on a single target at a loss of Envenoms? Yes. Therefore, it should be a dps gain to Rupture multiple targets, as long as it doesn't result in energy capping.

You do lose SOME IP proces cause when you switch targets, DP is not always instantly applied. And yes Redirect is for CP management, but also lets you get back on the main target, which will more then likely benefit from more debuffs. I am not saying multi dotting is not a dps gain, its not a 25% dps increase.

For a lot of top end rogues, vw and rupture only makes up about 12-15% or so of your single target dps. The energy gain is not going to add another 10% dps from the extra 90 energy or so you will get. Overall your probably getting about 16-18% dps gain from 2 target multi dotting. AKA the same or less then 40% bf with a lot more work.