[Balance] Serious Threat Issues

[Tyrxor]

First of all, my main is a shadowpriest and I don't know everything about Moonkins, that's why I need your help.
One of my friends plays Moonkin and has serious threat issues. She pulls aggro very often and at first I thought it's just because she made too much damage. The strange thing is, that even if the whole raid does more dmg than our Moonkin, that she still gets the aggro of the boss. This happens in dungeons, scenarios and raids.

I did many tests, because the whole thing didn't seem logical to me. We both did some old raids, I tanked the Boss and she was at range. She did clearly less damage than me, but was still able to easily get the aggro of the boss without taunting or anything like that. I also never used something like fade to reduce my threat. Correct me if I'm wrong, but normally same dmg means same threat except for some abilities that generate extra threat.

I searched these forums but no one else seems to have threat issues as Boomkin. I'm rather clueless and I would appreciate any help to find a solution. Maybe some of you have an idea, what causes this high threat.

[FuxieDK]

I haven't seen any threat problems with moonkins since TBC, but back then, they were intended as caster-tanks. Extra threat on all spells and 370% armor bonus..
Yes, if you pop Starfall, Mushrooms AND Hurricane at the same time, IN LOWLEVEL DUNGEONS, tank can have a hard time getting agro, but the game isn't balanced for lowlevel.

When I do LFR (not doing reals raids this expansion), I don't even get in Top10 threat in my Omen, even though I' always in Top5 in damage..

[Deleted]

I pull threat all the time on dungeons if I do burst damage.
But i'm fully raid geared, so I just don't pop cds anymore unless I'm with a tank from my guild.

maybe your tanks can't handle the burst of the boomkin if she's pulling agroo on raids.

[Condemner]

I play moonkin as my main and can say I ahve this sometimes as well. On raidbosses it's probably morstly because he uses his burst cd's close to the start of the fight. It's insane how much damage you do at the start with them. Also on trash, the aoe damage of an eclipsed hurricane alone is pretty high expecially when you have a decent amount of crit.

[mikoslav]

First of all, my main is a shadowpriest and I don't know everything about Moonkins, that's why I need your help.
One of my friends plays Moonkin and has serious threat issues. She pulls aggro very often and at first I thought it's just because she made too much damage. The strange thing is, that even if the whole raid does more dmg than our Moonkin, that she still gets the aggro of the boss. This happens in dungeons, scenarios and raids.

I did many tests, because the whole thing didn't seem logical to me. We both did some old raids, I tanked the Boss and she was at range. She did clearly less damage than me, but was still able to easily get the aggro of the boss without taunting or anything like that. I also never used something like fade to reduce my threat. Correct me if I'm wrong, but normally same dmg means same threat except for some abilities that generate extra threat.

I searched these forums but no one else seems to have threat issues as Boomkin. I'm rather clueless and I would appreciate any help to find a solution. Maybe some of you have an idea, what causes this high threat.

So have you checked how big were her critical hits?
Because when bursting at start, with incarnation + NV, SS crit of 600k is not that unusual, (or maybe even 2 such similar crits in a row) and it s an added threat to what she already has with dots rolling on the target (and starfall) and starfire that has just hit the target for say 300k 1 second before such SS crit lands.
symbiosis on hunter might not be as bad as we think , or mirror images from mage... I prefer it on lock though.

[Tyrxor]

No the burst is not the real problem. I know, that at the beginning of a fight our Moonkin can make extremly high damage and that every now and then she has another damagepeak. Normally our tanks can handle this, but at spirit kings hc, when we stack our Moonkin has to stop doing damage many times or she is pulling aggro (which happened also many times). I know that our tank is pretty bad in generating threat in this fight, but this still doesen't explain why nobody else in our raid has cleary less aggro, while doing clearly mor dmg, without using any abilities to reduce threat. I mean the amount of threat our moonkin generates is so high, that she uses misdirect from symbioses on cd in some fights.

[mikoslav]

pls link her character, and maybe some logs?

[Tyrxor]

She told me that she is doing very high crits with starsurge, I still don't understand why she should get more threat than me (like 30%-40% more threath in omen), when I'm doing more dmg in recount/skada/wol. Shouldn't I still be higher if I did more damage to the boss until this point?

[Deleted]

Our boomkin is the first to pull aggro off tanks as well. It's just the crazy burst. Misdirect sounds like a really good idea if your tanks have trouble keeping it off her, otherwise just pop barkskin or other dmg mitigating cds until they can taunt. Usually our boomkin can easily keep himself alive for a short while through the healing from his CDs. We haven't done HC Spirit Kings yet, but on normal he's usually tanking the boss for the first 30 secs or so, and it doesn't really matter 'cause the dmg is shared anyway, so it's not much trouble for me and my co-healer.

[Tyrxor]

It says I need at least 10 Posts to be able to link. :-/

[mikoslav]

post again then , or copy paste not in a link form.

[Tyrxor]

I hope it works then ^^

---------- Post added 2013-02-11 at 11:28 AM ----------

Armory-Link:
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...1rtemys/simple

Logs:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-a9x4hp5hxpoe3obu/

Unfortunately our warrior forgot to log our raid yesterday. I doubt you can see threat generatet in WoL.

[Deleted]

Spirit kings is a fight i have had problems with as well as boomkin.
Potential solutions we came up with were misdirect either from hunter via symbiosis or both.
Using mirror images as a threat drop.
But the one i went with was wtf am i doing using my burst on the pull when i should be using it when the 1st boss gets to 30%

[Tyrxor]

@felis
Thanks, that was something she didn't consider. I guess it will help in this fight

There is still something i would like to know. Is there any ability in the normal rotation of a balance druid that causes some extra threat?
Is there any reason a moonkin should have more threat per damage than other specs like shadowpriests or elemental shaman?

Normally I would say now, it's just that our moonkin seems to do more threat per damage than other dd's in our raid.

[Deleted]

In hcs I queue as a healer as a boomkin and tank alot of things, doesn't matter since with my gear hcs are a joke. As of raids.. just yday I died on the pull with 2 hunters in the raid on the pull on grand empress due to critting too much. 500k on the pull The stupid rogue used tricks one me though, not that smart I suppose. But in general in raids.. if the hunters/rogues gives md/tricks on pull then I never have problems, if they don't I'll die.

[Reyzzz]

No the burst is not the real problem. I know, that at the beginning of a fight our Moonkin can make extremly high damage and that every now and then she has another damagepeak. Normally our tanks can handle this, but at spirit kings hc, when we stack our Moonkin has to stop doing damage many times or she is pulling aggro (which happened also many times). I know that our tank is pretty bad in generating threat in this fight, but this still doesen't explain why nobody else in our raid has cleary less aggro, while doing clearly mor dmg, without using any abilities to reduce threat. I mean the amount of threat our moonkin generates is so high, that she uses misdirect from symbioses on cd in some fights.

Just to point it out, Qiang doesn't do normal melee swings so it doesn't matter who has aggro as long as everyone knows where to move when needed.

---------- Post added 2013-02-11 at 12:11 PM ----------

There is still something i would like to know. Is there any ability in the normal rotation of a balance druid that causes some extra threat?
Is there any reason a moonkin should have more threat per damage than other specs like shadowpriests or elemental shaman?

Normally I would say now, it's just that our moonkin seems to do more threat per damage than other dd's in our raid.

Maybe NV healing threat is added on top of our damage threat.

[Tyrxor]

@ Reyzzz
I know that, Quiang is not the problem, it's Meng. It's seems our tank is very slow in generating threat on this last boss. NV could be it if overheal also generates threat (I don't know that), because as shadowpriest I'm healing much more up to this point.

[brinohm]

The other thing to remember here is that damage meters give you an average over time. What I've found is that boomkin burst can be very high, not as high as locks with Chaos bolt, but still close. Myself and the lock in our group have similar problems from time to time pulling off the tank. I started with a pre-pot enhanced starfall and then going into our full CD rotation on Amber Shaper last week and the tank couldn't get threat off me initially, and he's a good tank, well geared, etc, so it happens, I slowed down on the boss and he got threat back after about three taunts and everything was fine and it didn't happen again that night, so it just depends in my experience.

The only downside to what Felis mentioned in holding off on using your cd's is that if you don't use your CD's right at the start of the fight, it will cut down on how many times you use them during the fight. If the fight is 3 minutes or less, then there's no reason to worry. If it's longer, then it reduces their overall dps. It'd be better to start two or three casts away from lunar eclipse probably, than to forgo popping your cd's at the beginning of the fight. Two un-eclipsed casts of Wrath should easily let the tank hold threat well if they are similarly geared. Better though is his idea of midirect or mirror images, both of those work great on the pull if you don't need AMS from a DK or the DK tank doesn't want your dmg reduction cd.

[Sunfyre]

Have her symbiosis a mage for mirror images, it's the best threat control we have currently.

[Deleted]

Have her symbiosis a mage for mirror images, it's the best threat control we have currently.

word.
i tell people again and again that the images are not for dps as boomkin but for threat but do they listen?
i don't know if i could survive elagon hc w/out them tbh. those damn adds +starfall = images needed.