the what if locks could tank thread

[Jessicka]

Explaining why there are no pure tanks or pure healers should not qualify as an argument for why pure DPS should continue to exist. I appreciate the history lesson, but I'm talking about making progressive changes for the future.

Those tanking and healing classes in classic weren't supposed to use their damage dealing specs in raids/instances. I think a more progressive change for the future would be to try harder to avoid encounters being setup to necessitate people switching roles, and actually maybe implement pure tanks/healers as they've already shown they can let healers deal some damage without breaking the game. There is certainly demand there for pures of all roles.

[Mayhem]

Those tanking and healing classes in classic weren't supposed to use their damage dealing specs in raids/instances. I think a more progressive change for the future would be to try harder to avoid encounters being setup to necessitate people switching roles, and actually maybe implement pure tanks/healers as they've already shown they can let healers deal some damage without breaking the game. There is certainly demand there for pures of all roles.

what demand? and how would it be a pure for example healer if he´d do damage on the fly and not ignorable dmg...?

i´d love to see a 4th spec or anyspec changed to a tanking spec, i´m playing my warlock for a good 7 years now, and i don´t care what changes happen, i love the class, i hate it to be a pure dps though...

[Jessicka]

what demand? and how would it be a pure for example healer if he´d do damage on the fly and not ignorable dmg...?

i´d love to see a 4th spec or anyspec changed to a tanking spec, i´m playing my warlock for a good 7 years now, and i don´t care what changes happen, i love the class, i hate it to be a pure dps though...

All those Priests running Disc/Holy, and many a tank who pre-MoP ran two distinct tanking builds.

[nightfalls]

Those tanking and healing classes in classic weren't supposed to use their damage dealing specs in raids/instances. I think a more progressive change for the future would be to try harder to avoid encounters being setup to necessitate people switching roles, and actually maybe implement pure tanks/healers as they've already shown they can let healers deal some damage without breaking the game. There is certainly demand there for pures of all roles.

I highly doubt people (at least the sane ones) actually want a pure tank/healing class. That notion is literally delusional.

[Iry]

Those tanking and healing classes in classic weren't supposed to use their damage dealing specs in raids/instances. I think a more progressive change for the future would be to try harder to avoid encounters being setup to necessitate people switching roles, and actually maybe implement pure tanks/healers as they've already shown they can let healers deal some damage without breaking the game. There is certainly demand there for pures of all roles.

There's no mechanical reason to have a pure anything. It actually helps raid dynamics for everyone to become a hybrid (two primary roles, one secondary role at least). It also helps class balance since it would require 33% less testing between specs to ensure they parse close enough to each other while still maintaining unique mechanics.

The only real merit to a pure anything seems to be avoiding awkward social situations.

[Lochton]

I can see it possible, but I would still back away and move to the back of the raid, so when people die.. I can run first.

[Jessicka]

I highly doubt people (at least the sane ones) actually want a pure tank/healing class. That notion is literally delusional.

I don't think it is either 'insane' or 'delusional', but I do think it is an interesting question to ask.

[nightfalls]

The only real merit to a pure anything seems to be avoiding awkward social situations.

"I don't have a protection spec/bars nor a shield, haven't set one up since I've been going arms/fury." How is that awkward?

"I don't have a healing UI/raid frames set up since I've played retribution off-spec." How is that awkward?

"I can try to do all of 20k DPS as WW since I just heal and don't know what Energy is." How is that awkward?

[Jessicka]

There's no mechanical reason to have a pure anything. It actually helps raid dynamics for everyone to become a hybrid (two primary roles, one secondary role at least). It also helps class balance since it would require 33% less testing between specs to ensure they parse close enough to each other while still maintaining unique mechanics.

How does it help raid dynamics when raid design is asking people to fill a role they don't wish to fill (or asking a guild or raid group to find an extra person)? I'd actually consider that to be an issue of poor encounter design than poor class design.

[Iry]

"I don't have a protection spec/bars nor a shield, haven't set one up since I've been going arms/fury." How is that awkward?

We don't have an X signed up for the raid this weekend. You've got four days to get it all set up. We'd be glad to help you. (awkwardness ensues)

"I don't have a healing UI/raid frames set up since I've played retribution off-spec." How is that awkward?

We don't have an X signed up for the raid this weekend. You've got four days to get it all set up. We'd be glad to help you. (awkwardness ensues)

"I can try to do all of 20k DPS as WW since I just heal and don't know what Energy is." How is that awkward?

Hypothetical person's sheer ignorance is very awkward indeed! But in the spirit of maintaining my theme... We don't have an X signed up for the raid this weekend. You've got four days to learn all about it. We'd be glad to help you. (awkwardness ensues)

How does it help raid dynamics when raid design is asking people to fill a role they don't wish to fill (or asking a guild or raid group to find an extra person)? I'd actually consider that to be an issue of poor encounter design than poor class design.

If everyone can fill at least one other role, then there is a lot less pressure on any one person to step up and play a role they do not desire. The chances notably increase that someone willing and capable is available.

It also gives the raid designers more leeway to build increasingly diverse encounters. While this creates the exact opposite effect from what I just mentioned, the expectation that raids will require familiarity with multiple roles could encourage more players to learn alternative roles, and may even discover that they enjoy them.

[nightfalls]

We don't have an X signed up for the raid this weekend. You've got four days to get it all set up.

I'm not saying this will be absolutely zero of this, but even in the extremely rare cases that this happens, it's more "ignorance" on the guild than the player who has communicated that he simply doesn't play the role.

Most raiders will play another role if needed for a single raid night, only when asked to switch long-term or permanently do they balk, but this is another story altogether.

How does it help raid dynamics when raid design is asking people to fill a role they don't wish to fill (or asking a guild or raid group to find an extra person)? I'd actually consider that to be an issue of poor encounter design than poor class design.

As Iry pointed out, a big reason this happens is because people who want to fill the roles play classes as mains that cannot fill the roles. Hence poor class design.

[Iry]

I'm not saying this will be absolutely zero of this, but even in the extremely rare cases that this happens, it's more "ignorance" on the guild than the player who has communicated that he simply doesn't play the role.

I have had it happen enough times in my life to see a pattern, but these are only anecdotes without sufficient sample size to draw definite conclusions. But the times I have seen it ranged from relatively innocent (Bob really sucks at DPS, so he just sticks with healing now) to the outright disruptive (Jane plays an elemental shaman, but refuses to cast a single healing spell under ANY circumstance). That last one is a true story.

As Iry pointed out, a big reason this happens is because people who want to fill the roles play classes as mains that cannot fill the roles. Hence poor class design.

Yeah. I know I picked a warlock back in vanilla because I loved the flavor. I had no idea how much the class would change over all these years. I absolutely love tanking, and play an alt just to tank, but not a day goes by that I do not wish I could tank on my Warlock to do both of the things I love at once.