Who's behind what? - A detailed analysis of all end-of-raid tier boss motives

[khalltusk]

Weren't the Nathrezim enslaved/persuaded by Kil'Jaeden?

By Sargeras, He saw them and how they enslaved other races and imprisoned them. Then when he gave in to his own rage/corruption he freed them and basically said - Serve me or die. They went oh yes please lord master sir!

[Aquamonkey]

We recently learned that the doomguard of the Burning Legion were titan creations. I wonder how much of Sargeras' efforts in imprisoning the demon races was him cleaning up the titans' mistakes.

Might be a factor in him turning against the Pantheon...

"Doomguard says: ...before Sargeras freed us, we were the Titan's hounds. Forever enslaved to police the use of arcane magics."

Not necessarily created by the Titans.

[Deleted]

What bothers me mostly about WoW lore is that seemingly anything that has a role in the WoW story is killed in a raid. Everything must die and be looted. Oooh, some poor creature possessed by an evil mastermind? Just kill it and loot it! It was never really clear to me why we killed for example Zul'jin. Or why did we kill the stuff in Maraudon?

The lore has been changed and modified too much, just to fit the current needs of the game.

[fenixazul]

It is fine but I have to dissagree with ICC and Naxx. The scourge become independent after the events of Warcraft 3 and the Frozen Throne

The fact that the scarlet crusade was created by one of the agents of Sargeas to get their vengance

The scourge mastermind was Arthas and no Sargeas, at least during Wow

[Kaleredar]

I actually like a thread like this.

One thing though: from what we've seen, the Old Gods don't seem to be in allegiance with one another.

Due to that fact, certain Old Gods are behind certain things.

The old gods weren't really "at war" with one another, though.

They created their faceless armies and elemental lieutenants so they could sit back and laugh while their forces all killed each other.

They weren't really fighting for "control" of Azeroth; before the titans came, they already ruled it.

Anyway, as has been said, OP, I'd suggest changing it to list the scourge's motives as being their own.

[Pebrocks The Warlock]

The old gods weren't really "at war" with one another, though.

They created their faceless armies and elemental lieutenants to basically sit back and laugh while they all killed each other.

They weren't really fighting for "control" of Azeroth; before the titans came, they already ruled it.

Anyway, as has been said, OP, I'd suggest changing it to list the scourge's motives as being their own.

Actually they were at war with each other. This was revealed during the last raid of Cata.

[wooootles]

I find the list a bit weird - biggest question mark being the Scourge that has become separate and an enemy of the Burning Legion once Arthas became the LK.

If you apply that Scourge-> KJ -> therefore Sargeras to every other bosses on that list, then you should have nothing but "Old Gods" and "Titans" on that list (Sargy still being a Titan)

[Sesto]

I've always thought that the Old Gods are the "purest" evil. I have my own personal theory about them and Sargeras. I know there isn't much to go on, and it also contradicts what Blizzard has said in the past, but I think it would be cool.

The Old Gods are said to span across the universe, as said by one of their minions in the Arcatraz. He might be using some hyperbole, but there has to be some truth to it. If the Old Gods do, it would make sense that the Titans and the Old Gods would be at each others throats, seeing as they hold two opposing viewpoints Chaos (Old Gods) vs Order (Titans). It was said that the Titans came to Azeroth, then the Old Gods came, then the Titans came back to stop them. Perhaps this war between Chaos and Order takes places across the entire universe, with different planets being the stage for the conflict.

Sargeras was the Champion of the Titans. The defender, the purest of them all, unable to commit evil. Yet he changed. Why? The official story (i think) is that the Nathrezim corrupted him, but that just sees stupid. The Nathrezim are nothing, and all we have seem from them is a few plots that have all eventually failed. What if the Old Gods attempted to corrupt Sargeras? Note, I use the word "attempt", as they failed. Sargeras was too pure, too devoted to fall for their corruption. However, he was changed by their attempts. Perhaps he realized that the Old Gods were a much bigger threat then the Titans first realized, and came up with a solution.

We know that the Titans may be afraid of the Old Gods. They were willing to destroy or "reset" Azeroth if the Old Gods escaped, as seen by Alagon. Perhaps Sargeras, realizing how truly dangerous the Old Gods are, decided that the entire universe needed to be reset. Nothing was safe from their corruption, and his solution was to start from scratch, and get rid of them once and for all. He brought this idea to the Pantheon, and they thought it was too much. Sargeras, deciding that the Pantheon have failed their duty, set out to do what must be done.

So he built an army, and now goes across the universe, destroying everything in his path, to finally cleanse the universe of the Old God's corruption.

It goes against some of official lore, but honestly, I prefer it to what is current. Sargeras being corrupted by a weak race. Him being the "noblest of them all" (it even says this on WoWpedia), yet somehow being corrupted, and deciding that order is wrong and that "chaos and depravity were the only absolutes within the dark, lonely universe" (again, from Wowpedia). If these are true, why doesn't he team up with the Old Gods? It just doesn't make sense.

[Wildmoon]

I've always thought that the Old Gods are the "purest" evil. I have my own personal theory about them and Sargeras. I know there isn't much to go on, and it also contradicts what Blizzard has said in the past, but I think it would be cool.

The Old Gods are said to span across the universe, as said by one of their minions in the Arcatraz. He might be using some hyperbole, but there has to be some truth to it. If the Old Gods do, it would make sense that the Titans and the Old Gods would be at each others throats, seeing as they hold two opposing viewpoints Chaos (Old Gods) vs Order (Titans). It was said that the Titans came to Azeroth, then the Old Gods came, then the Titans came back to stop them. Perhaps this war between Chaos and Order takes places across the entire universe, with different planets being the stage for the conflict.

Sargeras was the Champion of the Titans. The defender, the purest of them all, unable to commit evil. Yet he changed. Why? The official story (i think) is that the Nathrezim corrupted him, but that just sees stupid. The Nathrezim are nothing, and all we have seem from them is a few plots that have all eventually failed. What if the Old Gods attempted to corrupt Sargeras? Note, I use the word "attempt", as they failed. Sargeras was too pure, too devoted to fall for their corruption. However, he was changed by their attempts. Perhaps he realized that the Old Gods were a much bigger threat then the Titans first realized, and came up with a solution.

We know that the Titans may be afraid of the Old Gods. They were willing to destroy or "reset" Azeroth if the Old Gods escaped, as seen by Alagon. Perhaps Sargeras, realizing how truly dangerous the Old Gods are, decided that the entire universe needed to be reset. Nothing was safe from their corruption, and his solution was to start from scratch, and get rid of them once and for all. He brought this idea to the Pantheon, and they thought it was too much. Sargeras, deciding that the Pantheon have failed their duty, set out to do what must be done.

So he built an army, and now goes across the universe, destroying everything in his path, to finally cleanse the universe of the Old God's corruption.

It goes against some of official lore, but honestly, I prefer it to what is current. Sargeras being corrupted by a weak race. Him being the "noblest of them all" (it even says this on WoWpedia), yet somehow being corrupted, and deciding that order is wrong and that "chaos and depravity were the only absolutes within the dark, lonely universe" (again, from Wowpedia). If these are true, why doesn't he team up with the Old Gods? It just doesn't make sense.

Old gods and Sargeras are different in their nature. Sargeras was not corrupted in the sense that there was some kind of power that corrupted him. It was all about his philosophy. Nathrezim's behavior was just a nail in the coffin to Sargeras's confusing mind. Old gods are being of chaos. They don't give a shit about what's the best for this universe nor they have any concept of what the universe should be or something like that. They enjoy fighting each other and wreck havoc on anything they feel like. Sargeras is not like that. He has concept of what he believes to be ideal universe as his goal.

[rowaasr13]

It goes against some of official lore, but honestly, I prefer it to what is current. Sargeras being corrupted by a weak race. Him being the "noblest of them all" (it even says this on WoWpedia), yet somehow being corrupted, and deciding that order is wrong and that "chaos and depravity were the only absolutes within the dark, lonely universe" (again, from Wowpedia). If these are true, why doesn't he team up with the Old Gods? It just doesn't make sense.

1st world country war veterans were often devastated by brutality of 3rd world country wars. Why Sargeras can't be same?

[Sesto]

1st world country war veterans were often devastated by brutality of 3rd world country wars. Why Sargeras can't be same?

Because Sargeras is said to be the "purest of them all", and completely devoted. Comparing Sargeras to (not trying to disrespect war veterans) a normal human being is kind of silly.

[Aquamonkey]

Because Sargeras is said to be the "purest of them all", and completely devoted. Comparing Sargeras to (not trying to disrespect war veterans) a normal human being is kind of silly.

Noble != pure. Being noble and devoted doesn't make you immune to psychological trauma.

[Deleted]

Analysis: So we can see that the main contenders for top mastermind in the Warcraft Universe are Sargeras and the Old Gods. They seem to have orchestrated most of the events in the mythos of the Warcraft story.

I think that was way too much work to get to such an obvious conclusion. Isn't it common knowledge that Sargeras and the Old Gods are behind everything?

[SherbertLand]

We recently learned that the doomguard of the Burning Legion were titan creations. I wonder how much of Sargeras' efforts in imprisoning the demon races was him cleaning up the titans' mistakes.

Might be a factor in him turning against the Pantheon...

You can't read half stories and then argue about it. In the same article it said that the doomguards were titan creations meant to watch over the use of magic. Read things 100%.

[Aquamonkey]

You can't read half stories and then argue about it. In the same article it said that the doomguards were titan creations meant to watch over the use of magic. Read things 100%.

Source?

All I could find was: "Doomguard says: ...before Sargeras freed us, we were the Titan's hounds. Forever enslaved to police the use of arcane magics."

It says nothing about the Titans creating them.

[Aeryana]

Like the clarification on a few things, but I need to disagree with Sargeras still getting credit for most of the Scourge's work. By Wrath the Scourge is pretty much its own entity, actively fighting just about everyone in existence (Burning Legion through Scarlet Onslaught, Old Gods, Horde/Alliance).

[Breccia]

I think you're giving Deathwing and the Sha too little credit. Deathwing was nobody's slave, and the Sha are, at best, unruly children of a slain Old God rather than the obedient servants of a living one. They might have been given power, but not necessarily direction. If you accept that, Sargeras picks up the #1 spot, and Deathwing gets a high spot on the list himself.

I also think you're giving the Titans "mastermind" credit they don't deserve. Archavon and the other Watchers were minding their own business when we busted in and killed them. Malygos went batty. Neither of those were the Titans "masterminding" anything. Algalon, different story.

Finally, I don't think you can give the Horde credit for "masterminding" Garrosh's power grab that leads to the Siege of Orgrimmar. Anyone playing the Horde side 5.1 knows by now that almost all of the Horde leadership wants his tiny skull out of there, with three leaders and one neutral (Baine, Vol'jin, Lor'themar and Thrall) on record as wanting him gone. Sylvanas is oddly quiet on the subject, and Gallywix is, as usual, nowhere to be found. So remember, we're going to throw him out, too. Those that stay are "Garrosh's Horde", and he's the leader of them, not the other way around, and it definitely doesn't apply to the faction as a whole.

[Aquamonkey]

I think you're giving Deathwing and the Sha too little credit. Deathwing was nobody's slave, and the Sha are, at best, unruly children of a slain Old God rather than the obedient servants of a living one. They might have been given power, but not necessarily direction. If you accept that, Sargeras picks up the #1 spot, and Deathwing gets a high spot on the list himself.

Deathwing was very much a slave to the Old Gods. He impaled himself on Wyrmrest Temple to fulfill their wishes.

I also think you're giving the Titans "mastermind" credit they don't deserve. Archavon and the other Watchers were minding their own business when we busted in and killed them. Malygos went batty. Neither of those were the Titans "masterminding" anything. Algalon, different story.

The Watchers are autonomous the way my Roomba is. They're just following the programming the Titans gave them.

Malygos took his directive from the Titans to the extreme. He thought he was obeying his orders.

[Static Transit]

I think it would be more helpful to see who the bosses are in service of at the point of their raid fight instead of during their entire lifetime.

[wooootles]

I think you're giving Deathwing and the Sha too little credit. Deathwing was nobody's slave, and the Sha are, at best, unruly children of a slain Old God rather than the obedient servants of a living one. They might have been given power, but not necessarily direction. If you accept that, Sargeras picks up the #1 spot, and Deathwing gets a high spot on the list himself.

Deathwing is very much a pawn of Old Gods (N'Zoth), perhaps even his ace in the hole. Lots of evidence in the game lore that the dude's completely lost his mind (maybe 99.999% lost his mind). This is evident in End Time as he offed himself so that Azeroth would be free of Aspects.