Season 12 Malevolent 491 vs Season 13 Malevolent 478 (Not fair for Catch-Up)

[Dumaw]

I´m still wearing like 5 or 6 upgraded Dreadfuls. I better upgrade the malevs I got now and wait to get the rest with honor on 5.2?

Another question. People that use daggers + off-hand and upgraded their daggers to 478, gonna have to upgrade the off-hand too before 5.2 hits right? Read it somewhere that they´re going to split pvp power between both pieces.

[whiskeycoke]

wait, You're joking? Right?

I sure hope so; A fully upgraded Malv with T2 weapons should ABSOLUTELY be better than someone in full mal from honor in the next season.

Why should someone one with more skill (having gotten 2200) have a handicap in their advantage? Even the playing field?

For the record I have T2, but I don't think its fair to face roll people that don't. Let's go play a round of golf, I'll start with -5.....

The season should start off Even.

[Thirtyrock]

Why should someone one with more skill (having gotten 2200) have a handicap in their advantage? Even the playing field?

For the record I have T2, but I don't think its fair to face roll people that don't. Let's go play a round of golf, I'll start with -5.....

The season should start off Even.

You're talking new season HONOR gear vs last seasons CONQUEST gear. I mean, I get letting everyone get the same without a ratings requirement, but, if someone has full Malevolent T2 they SHOULD have a bit of an advantage, at least early on, against someone in honor gear.

Once everyone is in Conquest gear they'll be on the same level, but honor gear should NOT equal conquest gear.

[Deleted]

Why should someone one with more skill (having gotten 2200) have a handicap in their advantage? Even the playing field?

For the record I have T2, but I don't think its fair to face roll people that don't. Let's go play a round of golf, I'll start with -5.....

The season should start off Even.

Next season everyone can get T2 simply by grinding conquest points. So for the first time there will be no excuse whatsoever not to have the gear. Yes the people with T2 do have a slight advantage, it however is neglible seeing as how the new conquest gear overall is slighty better than the current one, even if it's upgraded.

[Thirtyrock]

Next season everyone can get T2 simply by grinding conquest points. So for the first time there will be no excuse whatsoever not to have the gear. Yes the people with T2 do have a slight advantage, it however is neglible seeing as how the new conquest gear overall is slighty better than the current one, even if it's upgraded.

This is what I was getting at, for the first few weeks those with fully upgraded Mal gear will have a SLIGHT advantage (I'm about 1/2 way upgraded, so I'm not one of these) but then it will be even, or close to even, closer than the difference now between gear levels is.

The fact is they SHOULD have a slight advantage because they were playing from the beginning of this last season or were able to play at high enough ratings to get enough conquest to get full 2/2 upgrades. They DESERVE an advantage; but their advantage will be a SLIGHT advantage. After a few weeks it won't matter at all. It is absolutely stupid to suggest that the new honor gear, which is roughly equivalent to the current unupdated conquest gear, should be the same as fully upgraded conquest gear.

[Lulbalance]

This is what I was getting at, for the first few weeks those with fully upgraded Mal gear will have a SLIGHT advantage (I'm about 1/2 way upgraded, so I'm not one of these) but then it will be even, or close to even, closer than the difference now between gear levels is.

The fact is they SHOULD have a slight advantage because they were playing from the beginning of this last season or were able to play at high enough ratings to get enough conquest to get full 2/2 upgrades. They DESERVE an advantage; but their advantage will be a SLIGHT advantage. After a few weeks it won't matter at all. It is absolutely stupid to suggest that the new honor gear, which is roughly equivalent to the current unupdated conquest gear, should be the same as fully upgraded conquest gear.

i disagree with this.

i, like most people who have the gear from last season and have multiple toons who do not, if we prefer to play another toon based on whatever we should start with the same clean slate... hence new season.

if you feel you need a gear advantage to play this game, and that's important to you; you should flat out quit.

no one deserves anything.. and most of us dont want an advantage.

[Thirtyrock]

i disagree with this.

i, like most people who have the gear from last season and have multiple toons who do not, if we prefer to play another toon based on whatever we should start with the same clean slate... hence new season.

if you feel you need a gear advantage to play this game, and that's important to you; you should flat out quit.

no one deserves anything.. and most of us dont want an advantage.

Hold on a minute. I'm not saying a permanent, lasting advantage. I'm saying that for the first few weeks, while everyone is getting their new Conquest gear, those who had fully upgraded Conquest gear from the last season should have a SLIGHT advantage. Now, once you get full Tyrannical gear you'll be on an even playing field, at most this takes 12 weeks (2200 a week for 12.29 weeks = full tyrranical gear and beginning to get t2 tyran gear)

My point is that those who put in the time, from the beginning of the season, should have a SLIGHT (read not huge, not great, not amazing, not unconquerable) advantage over those of us who did NOT start at the beginning/put in the time/get enough rating to get the fully upgraded 2/2 Mal gear:

So you know I'm not asking for an advantage here is my armory http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Lokiess/simple

not full 2/2, not shit gear either.

Again, this advantage will be rather insignificant, and will only matter at all during the first few weeks. I think those who have the 2/2 gear SHOULD have an advantage over me, It will be minimized over time.

[wrathblade]

this hole problem started with that damm upgrade your gear system the thought up.
also i don't mind that elite malevolent geared ppl have a advantage. i probably will never meet em in arena or RBG's

what i do find troublesome is that there reducing the itemlevel of the malevolent gear and compensating it with more resi and pvp power?
oke so my mage who did arena and RBG's each week.
started halveway into the season!
can now see that the honor gear has more pvp power and resi. yet less normal stats?
like ppl sad before! it's oke that elite geared ppl have a advantage! but pvp gear shouldn't get there itemlevel dumbed down just because ppl MIGHT use it to get into LFR quickly....

erm... blizz? i thought LFR was there so casuals could actually you know? see the raid? get some loot if there lucky?
no now there worried ppl might abuse pvp gear and get into the easy mode LFR?

i just don't understand why there changing all of this.
wasn't the old model of making the old pvp tier buyable with honor and implementing a new conquest pvp gear set enough?
your itemlevel rised allitle your dps / healing got better.

ppl could catchup by buying the now old tier for honor while the pvpers would already be getting conquest points for the new gear.
and the elite pvpers would still have the higher itemlevel gear and thus a clear advantage. the perk for beeing good in pvp and investing into there characters.

[Varabently]

People worked to get the 491 gear, so why exactly should their effort be negated in a heartbeat when PvE people get to keep their heroic gear advantage?

That can be said for every expansion, every new tier, pve or pvp.

[Deleted]

Geez, just look at the items. The item level is super low so you can't cheeze PvE queues.

491 DK Chest
995 STR
1751 STAM
606 Crit
778 Haste
466 PvP Power/Res

476 DK Chest
855 STR
1522 STAM
517 Crit
677 Haste
536 PvP Power/Res


The difference in performance between the two is pretty much negligible. The 491 piece has more stam but less resilience. The 491 piece has more str and secondary stats but less power. Educate yourself before you call the whaambulance.

Not saying that the stat difference necessarily is an issue (I'm personally all for pvp gear to be reasonably even/easy to obtain to maintain a fair playing field, but I can see reasons for letting the current seasons conq gear be superior to next seasons honor) but the marginal pvp power/resi increase on the 476 isn't even close to compensating for the additional other stats on the 491 piece.

[Lulbalance]

Hold on a minute. I'm not saying a permanent, lasting advantage. I'm saying that for the first few weeks, while everyone is getting their new Conquest gear, those who had fully upgraded Conquest gear from the last season should have a SLIGHT advantage. Now, once you get full Tyrannical gear you'll be on an even playing field, at most this takes 12 weeks (2200 a week for 12.29 weeks = full tyrranical gear and beginning to get t2 tyran gear)

My point is that those who put in the time, from the beginning of the season, should have a SLIGHT (read not huge, not great, not amazing, not unconquerable) advantage over those of us who did NOT start at the beginning/put in the time/get enough rating to get the fully upgraded 2/2 Mal gear:

So you know I'm not asking for an advantage here is my armory http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Lokiess/simple

not full 2/2, not shit gear either.

Again, this advantage will be rather insignificant, and will only matter at all during the first few weeks. I think those who have the 2/2 gear SHOULD have an advantage over me, It will be minimized over time.

and i'm saying; it's just another excuse for people who aren't geared. i love the idea of a flat playing field.. love it. i love a clean reset after seasons, personally if i win - i dont want anyone saying 'you won because... xyz.' unless that xyz is i outplayed you .

maybe i was too sharp in making that point.

[Thirtyrock]

and i'm saying; it's just another excuse for people who aren't geared. i love the idea of a flat playing field.. love it. i love a clean reset after seasons, personally if i win - i dont want anyone saying 'you won because... xyz.' unless that xyz is i outplayed you .

maybe i was too sharp in making that point.

I'm with you, except that wow has gear, so...that's the way it is. If you're going to have gear then you shouldn't nullify the achievements of those who earned it, at least not instantly.

[Deleted]

i disagree with this.

i, like most people who have the gear from last season and have multiple toons who do not, if we prefer to play another toon based on whatever we should start with the same clean slate... hence new season.

if you feel you need a gear advantage to play this game, and that's important to you; you should flat out quit.

no one deserves anything.. and most of us dont want an advantage.

How about you flat out quit instead of us? Apparently we are playing more or at a higher rating than you are, so why are we the ones who should leave because you guys can't stomach people having a slight advantage because they were more successfull and or invested more time?

Guess what, the gap is actually going to widen. Not because it isn't possible for anyone to get said gear but because people don't put the necessary effort into it to actually keep up, takes weeks off or don't play for months. Then they come back and demand to get the same gear others worked for in an instant because they feel so damn entitled to it. Guess what, you're not!

The current advantage is a tiny one, the coming one with two tiers in a single season will be worse by far. Most of you guys do what, 1800 points a week and skip a week now and then? Well I currently get 3641 points a week. People with the 1800 base cap will need 15 weeks or 105~ days to even be allowed to buy T2 and the elite gear. I'll be there in around 7 weeks. So that means by the time you guys are allowed to even buy the new gear I'll most likely be nearly done with getting gear.

And if the upgrades come back in 5.3 I might have a full upgraded 2/2 elite gear before you guys are halfway done, considering you cap every single last week. THAT is something to worry about, not people who broke 2,2k having 1k spell and 1k pvp power more on their weapons.

That can be said for every expansion, every new tier, pve or pvp.

No, can't. New expansion is something completly different, that one should be obvious. A new raiding tier doesn't mean people get the old heroic gear thrown at them for free so everyone starts on an equal footing. People having accumulated HC gear start with a big advantage over normal raiders. In PvP for Cataclysm the honor gear introduced at the beginning of the new season was better than the old conquest gear. This was a horrible design as it completly invalidated peoples effort and achievments and forced them to grind out a new set each season.
Blizzard themselves stated they want peoples effort and achievments to actually matter and apparently this now applies to both PvE and PvP.

I'm with you, except that wow has gear, so...that's the way it is. If you're going to have gear then you shouldn't nullify the achievements of those who earned it, at least not instantly.

It will be nullified if they actually put in some effort, something most of them can't be arsed to do. I without a problem kept two characters up to date with just a few hours Arena/RBG each week for both. These people will whine regardless of how the gear is aquired, if all gear would be purchasable through honor they would cry about having to grind BG's, if it would be send to them per mail they would cry about it being to easy to get.
These are the people who don't even enchant or gem epic gear pieces and at the end of the season wear some mix of quest greens and conquest gear.

[Lucetia]

i love the part where you don't know what you are talking about

just in case you missed the facts here they are again

That means the damage you would do stays the same but you won't be able to cheese your way into 5.2 LFR with PVP gear aka it is not weaker

Yes those that upgraded their Malevolent will be a tad stronger...just like they are now....so really nothing changes? Except you can now play catch-up with the CP and you know get gear easier

you should read OP before jumping to conclusions

That's not exactly true. Some spells/abilities scale off the primary stat better than they do with PvP Power. PvP Power basically just amplifies the damage you would've done. For instance if you have 50% PvP Power and would've hit the person for 1000 you would now hit them for 1500. If you had the higher iLvL gear thus giving you more of your primary stat and it went to 1200 and PvP Power of 45% (scaling down slightly to give rough idea of what they did) you now do 1740 damage.

Again the numbers are all rough, but that's basically what is going to happen. Without the primary stat buff the 483/491 provides damage will still be weaker with the 476 which starts the whole gear gap issues.

[Otimus]

This is what I was getting at, for the first few weeks those with fully upgraded Mal gear will have a SLIGHT advantage (I'm about 1/2 way upgraded, so I'm not one of these) but then it will be even, or close to even, closer than the difference now between gear levels is.

The fact is they SHOULD have a slight advantage because they were playing from the beginning of this last season or were able to play at high enough ratings to get enough conquest to get full 2/2 upgrades. They DESERVE an advantage; but their advantage will be a SLIGHT advantage. After a few weeks it won't matter at all. It is absolutely stupid to suggest that the new honor gear, which is roughly equivalent to the current unupdated conquest gear, should be the same as fully upgraded conquest gear.

No one in a player versus player environment should have a statistical advantage solely on seniority. That's just piss poor PVP design, and pretty much only is able to fly in MMOs.

[Thirtyrock]

No one in a player versus player environment should have a statistical advantage solely on seniority. That's just piss poor PVP design, and pretty much only is able to fly in MMOs.

I agree with you in principle; the problem is that this is the game we have. If gear is in the game, as a reward for both playing and skill (though the skill portion is going away) then it should be treated as a reward.

Again, I'm saying a SLIGHT advantage, not a HUGE one.

Basically, someone coming in after 3 months shouldn't have the same rewards as someone who was in it at the beginning.

[Deleted]

One factor aswell: We want people to fight it out every week of the season, not "meh I will get same gear faster for honor in 2 weeks time, Ill skip arenas for now".

[Reith]

A new raiding tier doesn't mean people get the old heroic gear thrown at them for free so everyone starts on an equal footing. People having accumulated HC gear start with a big advantage over normal raiders.

Your argument is really, really weak. I only brought up the PVE thing because someone else did, but you're comparing apples to oranges. PVE is not against other people, by definition. It's against the game.

You also forget there are people and guilds and teams who HAVE worked really hard and HAVE put the effort in - in both PVE and PVP - and still hit a brick wall, for whatever reason. You are negating their effort as not being worth as much as yours.

In PvP for Cataclysm the honor gear introduced at the beginning of the new season was better than the old conquest gear. This was a horrible design as it completly invalidated peoples effort and achievments and forced them to grind out a new set each season.
Blizzard themselves stated they want peoples effort and achievments to actually matter and apparently this now applies to both PvE and PvP.

It was not a horrible design. You're obviously too focused on gear. Tunnel vision. There are other rewards in PVP like titles and mounts and the prestige of being high-rated. Not only this, but at the beginning of the tier, EVERYONE has access to the same honor gear, but there are a few things you're obviously not considering:

1. the higher-rated players already have a gear advantage so if everyone is going for honor gear, they have the advantage in getting that honor gear.
2. those same higher-rated players also have a SKILL advantage at the same time.
3. again, those higher-rated players have the titles/mounts they were rewarded from the previous season.

By whining about something so trivial, you've basically admitted that without your gear, you wouldn't have an advantage via your skill, and you wouldn't have any titles from the previous season. That's exactly what it sounds like you're implying to me.

[Femrage]

This is what I was getting at, for the first few weeks those with fully upgraded Mal gear will have a SLIGHT advantage (I'm about 1/2 way upgraded, so I'm not one of these) but then it will be even, or close to even, closer than the difference now between gear levels is.

The fact is they SHOULD have a slight advantage because they were playing from the beginning of this last season or were able to play at high enough ratings to get enough conquest to get full 2/2 upgrades. They DESERVE an advantage; but their advantage will be a SLIGHT advantage. After a few weeks it won't matter at all. It is absolutely stupid to suggest that the new honor gear, which is roughly equivalent to the current unupdated conquest gear, should be the same as fully upgraded conquest gear.

This post is flawed on so many levels it is actually quite comical. First, you say why not give people a slight advantage "for a few weeks". You do realize it takes roughly 10-12 weeks to fill out a complete set up new epic gear, at which point you will have finally erased the slight advantage. Not sure about you, but 10-12 weeks isn't exactly a few weeks... lol

Secondly, feeling you "deserve" an advantage over other players because of your accomplishments in a prior season is really funny. I guess by that logic then we should give the Ravens extra draft picks, no salary cap, and they can have a 60 man rosters going into next season. I mean after all, they won the superbowl so clearly they DESERVE to start next season with some advantages over other teams.... RIGHT?!?!? Rofl, that logic is so funny.... /facepalm

[Deleted]

Your argument is really, really weak. I only brought up the PVE thing because someone else did, but you're comparing apples to oranges. PVE is not against other people, by definition. It's against the game.

Wrong, a great many guilds care about how fast they progress compared to other guilds, so having better is is an advantage.

You also forget there are people and guilds and teams who HAVE worked really hard and HAVE put the effort in - in both PVE and PVP - and still hit a brick wall, for whatever reason. You are negating their effort as not being worth as much as yours.

Obviously they have put in less effort then I have. I'm completly geared, in fact I have two completely geared characters. Now people in 2/3 blues and some quest greens with a few epics pieces are telling me me having my gear is unfair, really?

It was not a horrible design. You're obviously too focused on gear. Tunnel vision. There are other rewards in PVP like titles and mounts and the prestige of being high-rated. Not only this, but at the beginning of the tier, EVERYONE has access to the same honor gear, but there are a few things you're obviously not considering:

I have most of the PvP titles I care about aside from gladiator, I do have most of the other vanity stuff, unless they introduce more there isn't anything left for me to care. Being high rated doesn't hold much prestige, in fact people will only trash talk you and assume you cheat/wintrade even though you worked for getting where you are.
And the reason it was a horrible design is because it forced fully decked out players to grind a completly new set at the beginning of each season for honor, then go right back to Arena/RBG and grind a conquest set. It invalidated their effort in a second, it wasn't even just the old set for honor but one a few ilevels higher, bad design.

1. the higher-rated players already have a gear advantage so if everyone is going for honor gear, they have the advantage in getting that honor gear.
2. those same higher-rated players also have a SKILL advantage at the same time.
3. again, those higher-rated players have the titles/mounts they were rewarded from the previous season.

Only mount rewards are for gladiator ranked players, those for RBG do not require rating but merely patience.

By whining about something so trivial, you've basically admitted that without your gear, you wouldn't have an advantage via your skill, and you wouldn't have any titles from the previous season. That's exactly what it sounds like you're implying to me.

What a faulty and weird conclusion! We all had equal footing at the beginning of the expansion and some of us still reached a higher rating, how come?

This post is flawed on so many levels it is actually quite comical. First, you say why not give people a slight advantage "for a few weeks". You do realize it takes roughly 10-12 weeks to fill out a complete set up new epic gear, at which point you will have finally erased the slight advantage. Not sure about you, but 10-12 weeks isn't exactly a few weeks... lol

Actually with the new system coming you have bigger problems to worry about. I'll be around 22000 conquest points 6 weeks into the new season with my current RBG rating. That means I can start buying elite gear around the 8.th week having 5000 conquest points already on my char and most of the 8.th week cap. So by the time you actually get to buy the new gear I'll be completly decked out in it and if 5.3 comes fairly fast might already be in the process of upgrading.

That is a far bigger advantage and something that is going to severely punish everyone not being high rated (as in 2k+ in RBG's at least), these people will have elite gear completly upgraded and T2 long before most people even get to option to buy it. This is the biggest gear gap up to date. Yet you guys completly ignore it, why?