Breath of Darkest Shadow and Garrosh [Spoilers]

[Khaza-R]

I've been thinking about this quest a lot lately. Mainly the dialogue coming from Garrosh while he speaks to Ishi. The thing I am the most curious about is how Garrosh tries to control and conquer the negative emotions of the Sha. Its rather opposite of what the Pandaren seem to do by dismissing these emotions and trying to downplay their existence. I'm left wondering if this is inherently evil? Is his approach necessarily a bad one?

The whole thing comes across as very yin-yang. Two opposite sides of the spectrum when dealing with the Sha and their respective negative emotions. What do you guys think?

Ishi says: Do you speak the truth, Garrosh? Can the Horde truly survive another war?
Garrosh Hellsceram says: Doubt is for the weak! Do not question your strength, Ishi. We will survive because we must! The Horde will prevail!
At 75%:
Ishi says: We have lost so much, Warchief. Our families, dead. Our friends, lost. Our homeland, gone. How much more must our people suffer?
Garrosh Hellscream says: Our suffering is at an end. When this war is won, our people will see prosperity at last.
At 50%:
Ishi says: Why should be be slaves to honor, when we could slaughter the children of our enemies while they sleep? My blade thirsts for Alliance blood!
Garrosh Hellscream says: Control your hatred, Ishi. There is killing, and then there is murder. Direct your rage to our enemies.
At 25%:
Ishi says: At night, I see the faces of all those I have slain. Where do our spirits go after our bodies lay cold? I fear... death.
Garrosh Hellscream says: Use your fear, Ishi! Turn it on your foes. When death arrives, will you stand and face it or kneel in defeat?

[Skytotem]

Garrosh's philosophy here is not inherently evil and, might even be healthier than the Pandaren way... but the way he carries it out is incredibly self destructive not just to the Orcs as a people but the entire Horde.

[Deleted]

im surprised Garrosh knows the difference between Killing and murder.. havnt seen this before.

[Thage]

Garrosh's philosophy here is not inherently evil and, might even be healthier than the Pandaren way... but the way he carries it out is incredibly self destructive not just to the Orcs as a people but the entire Horde.

Garrosh's words also tend to stand in stark contrast with his actions, especially in Tides of War, during the Huojin Pandaren Adventurer's introduction to the Horde, and throughout all of Mists of Pandaria so far. He's a well-intentioned extremist by word, but a raving psychopath by action, which puts him in a really, really weird place where his actions in 5.3 and 5.4 will likely determine which category he falls into come the Siege of Orgrimmar.

[roahn the warlock]

im surprised Garrosh knows the difference between Killing and murder.. havnt seen this before.

He's done that a lot. I suppose you never quested horde side. He's not bad, he's just old fashioned orc.... like a republican. You also have to realize... there really isn't any women or children in theramore.. at least to my knowledge. They are all soldiers and part of the army

[Skytotem]

Garrosh's words also tend to stand in stark contrast with his actions, especially in Tides of War, during the Huojin Pandaren Adventurer's introduction to the Horde, and throughout all of Mists of Pandaria so far. He's a well-intentioned extremist by word, but a raving psychopath by action, which puts him in a really, really weird place where his actions in 5.3 and 5.4 will likely determine which category he falls into come the Siege of Orgrimmar.

Yep, Blizz has been really schizophrenic with him. Half the time they want us to see he's not 'pure evil' and then the rest of the time they make him so unlikable he might as well be.

He's done that a lot. I suppose you never quested horde side. He's not bad, he's just old fashioned orc.... like a republican. You also have to realize... there really isn't any women or children in theramore.. at least to my knowledge. They are all soldiers and part of the army

There were before it was evacuated but it was always a valid military target due to supplying the Northwatch forces in barrens and stonetalon.

[bufferunderrun]

I think that garrosh is just plain stupid he wanna appear a honorable warrior but it's actions demostrate that he cannot control it's emotions and end up being a murderer; he maybe one of those generals that need a strong leader that keep them in check to avoid any overdoing, this is why thrall sended saurfang with garrosh in northrend.

[Trassk]

Garrosh is just a mad dog now.

He has delusions of grandeur, as you expect a tyrant to have. He thinks he can control anything, and believes he is without limits.

He also believes everything he does to be right and for the horde, even when he is sacrificing his own horde for what he thinks of as the greater good. These are clear traits of a tyrant and sociopath.

He is a character who sits in the same boat as religious extremists and those who kill for there religion, one who will not be questioned on his belief and commit to it, without anyone telling him otherwise.

---------- Post added 2013-02-17 at 09:19 PM ----------

This is just blizzard making it that instead of being a 2 dimensional villain, Garrosh is a villain with layers

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

Pride... Garrosh has much of it.

The line about murder makes it clear. Was it not murder to nuke a town of druid students? To drop a mana bomb on Theramore? What of his attempt to have Vol'Jin assassinated?

There's one Sha we haven't seen, remember....

[Deleted]

---------- Post added 2013-02-17 at 09:19 PM ----------

This is just blizzard making it that instead of being a 2 dimensional villain, Garrosh is a villain with layers

Hey hey; Trassk! That's not how it works.

Ogers have layers, because they're like onions.
But than again, even an onion would cry if it saw Garrosh. XD

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

Hey hey; Trassk! That's not how it works.

Ogers have layers, because they're like onions.
But than again, even an onion would cry if it saw Garrosh. XD

So does this mean Mok'nathal are just half-peeled Ogres?

[Trogie]

Pride... Garrosh has much of it.

The line about murder makes it clear. Was it not murder to nuke a town of druid students? To drop a mana bomb on Theramore? What of his attempt to have Vol'Jin assassinated?

There's one Sha we haven't seen, remember....

Garrosh actually killed the general who dropped the bomb on the druid students because it was dishonorable and murder.

[Maxweii]

Pride... Garrosh has much of it.

The line about murder makes it clear. Was it not murder to nuke a town of druid students? To drop a mana bomb on Theramore? What of his attempt to have Vol'Jin assassinated?

There's one Sha we haven't seen, remember....

Did you not finish the quest where the druid students get bombed and Garrosh is livid over what just happened? He did not want that to happen, it should not of happened, and he made it clear with the quick removal of the Orc who made it happen from his army.

I have said this many times, I still stand by it. While yes Theramore was horrid and there should not be another place that suffers as such, it was a martial city and those whom were not there as part of an army were there as citizens knowing the risks they took even living there for one day. Take what you will over how Garrosh waited until more forces were in Theramore to attack it, that was in part so he didn't see any of what he called murder happen, and part so that his tactical strike with the mana bomb did the max amount of damage possible.

While the forces whom tried to kill Vol'jin were most certainly very loyal to Garrosh, we do not in any way know that a direct (or indirect) order from Garrosh himself made what happened to our fav troll, happen. Those who have read Tides of War know of the Blackrock orc, Malkorok (whom is seen a few times during the quest lines from 5.1), know that Garrosh trusts him (to what extent? not sure) but he trusts him enough to have it where Malkorok can do things, and Garrosh will never find out about them. (Or if he does, he passes it off.) This orc was responsible for killing Horde soldiers at Razor inn just for being a bit uncertain about the Horde for what happened at Theramore, he comes in exhanges a few words, and after removing the innkeeper kills all whom are in the inn via grenades. So given all that Malkorok does/has done, I could totally see it being him who organized the assassination of the troll leader (and being the leader of the Kor'kron he would then also be responsible for what happened at the Echo Isles) because with the position of power he has in the Horde right now think of how easy it would be for him to say the orders came right from Garrosh.

[Deleted]

Did you not finish the quest where the druid students get bombed and Garrosh is livid over what just happened? He did not want that to happen, it should not of happened, and he made it clear with the quick removal of the Orc who made it happen from his army.

I have said this many times, I still stand by it. While yes Theramore was horrid and there should not be another place that suffers as such, it was a martial city and those whom were not there as part of an army were there as citizens knowing the risks they took even living there for one day. Take what you will over how Garrosh waited until more forces were in Theramore to attack it, that was in part so he didn't see any of what he called murder happen, and part so that his tactical strike with the mana bomb did the max amount of damage possible.

While the forces whom tried to kill Vol'jin were most certainly very loyal to Garrosh, we do not in any way know that a direct (or indirect) order from Garrosh himself made what happened to our fav troll, happen. Those who have read Tides of War know of the Blackrock orc, Malkorok (whom is seen a few times during the quest lines from 5.1), know that Garrosh trusts him (to what extent? not sure) but he trusts him enough to have it where Malkorok can do things, and Garrosh will never find out about them. (Or if he does, he passes it off.) This orc was responsible for killing Horde soldiers at Razor inn just for being a bit uncertain about the Horde for what happened at Theramore, he comes in exhanges a few words, and after removing the innkeeper kills all whom are in the inn via grenades. So given all that Malkorok does/has done, I could totally see it being him who organized the assassination of the troll leader (and being the leader of the Kor'kron he would then also be responsible for what happened at the Echo Isles) because with the position of power he has in the Horde right now think of how easy it would be for him to say the orders came right from Garrosh.

Actually, if you watched the conversation between Garrosh and Vol'jin, after Domination Point is established, he tells him to wait for a moment, walks over to the same rogue who later tries to assassinate him, talk to him for a moment, but we can't hear what he said, before he leaves.
So it's noted that Garrosh indeed decided to have Vol'jin killed, and in one place where nobody would notice that, because only Garrosh's cronies; except for Dezco and his Sunwalkers, as well as Baine, who are chilling at Vale of Eternal Blossom now; landed on Pandaria, so the word that one of the key and oldest co-founders of the horde wouldn't come to light and nobody else knows about the martial law on Echo Isles.

[celinamuna]

I'm not sure that Garrosh is a villain, in Cata he receive a giant burden, and now with the discovery of Pandaria he's doing his best to keep Horde ahead of alliance.
While some of his methods are harsh he does them wishing for the best, his approach to sha is much healthier than what others are doing (instead of ignoring the problem, he's controlling it and using it to his benefit directly through bell and indirectly through the way he's teaching others how to handle sha)

[Deleted]

I'm not sure that Garrosh is a villain, in Cata he receive a giant burden, and now with the discovery of Pandaria he's doing his best to keep Horde ahead of alliance.
While some of his methods are harsh he does them wishing for the best, his approach to sha is much healthier than what others are doing (instead of ignoring the problem, he's controlling it and using it to his benefit directly through bell and indirectly through the way he's teaching others how to handle sha)

Well, here lies the problem, unless you're a Mogu, who are emotionless creations of the titans, you can't control the Sha.

Beside, using something that spawned from an Old God...that's like Twilights Hammer all over again.

[Thage]

I'm not sure that Garrosh is a villain, in Cata he receive a giant burden, and now with the discovery of Pandaria he's doing his best to keep Horde ahead of alliance.

In Cata, he blatantly ignored his allies' cultures and sovereignty over their own nations (as seen in Baine's and Sylvanas's leader stories), butted heads with the other racial leaders sans-Gallywix and Lor'themar just about every time they came within six feet of each other, and in the leadup to Mists of Pandaria, brayed about honor while doing the equivalent of dropping the Fat Man and Little Boy -combined- on Theramore, going on to gloat about it.

At the end of the pandaren starting quests for Huojin pandaren, their introduction to the Warchief is a racist diatribe where he all but confirms the Horde only exists as a vehicle to his own personal glory, cultures and skills beyond swordplay be damned, then he throws the Huojin Adventurer into a gladiatorial deathmatch against three colossal, powerful beasts from Northrend, calling it his 'gift' to them and standing above the fray, in absoutely no danger, as though he felt himself above fighting his own battles.

While some of his methods are harsh he does them wishing for the best, his approach to sha is much healthier than what others are doing (instead of ignoring the problem, he's controlling it and using it to his benefit directly through bell and indirectly through the way he's teaching others how to handle sha)

Except that he's not controlling the Sha. Ishi lost control and the Bell was shattered. The entire point of the Sha was that they cannot be controlled and will go rampaging through the countryside, corrupting all life in their path until stopped. It's the entire reason harmony, balance, and avoiding emotional extremes are the cornerstones of pandaren culture--and they've been dealing with the Sha for 10,000 years. I'd reckon they know a bit more about that problem than a sociopath who came in to conquer their homeland and stripmine it for resources.

[Maxweii]

Actually, if you watched the conversation between Garrosh and Vol'jin, after Domination Point is established, he tells him to wait for a moment, walks over to the same rogue who later tries to assassinate him, talk to him for a moment, but we can't hear what he said, before he leaves.
So it's noted that Garrosh indeed decided to have Vol'jin killed, and in one place where nobody would notice that, because only Garrosh's cronies; except for Dezco and his Sunwalkers, as well as Baine, who are chilling at Vale of Eternal Blossom now; landed on Pandaria, so the word that one of the key and oldest co-founders of the horde wouldn't come to light and nobody else knows about the martial law on Echo Isles.

As you said we can't hear what he said so we have no confirmed info on what Garrosh said to him. After he talks to said Orc Vol'jin and him head off to their mission. A simple order such as "Make sure Vol'jin is loyal to the true Horde" or "Find out where the Mogu power is" or even a combo of the two could easily be taken to an extreme. If you take a combo of the two you can certainly say that once Vol'jin says what the power is, and how Garrosh is trying to play god that could be seen by an extreme Garrosh follower as betrayal. If you take the poison into account it makes it seem more set up then a simple flight from Dom Point to Tavern in the Mists though, but again I point out how we have no absolute truth over who gave the order against Vol'jin. And as seen in story progression so far in Mists, the Horde forces on Pandaria will certainly see and hear about what happened in the Echo Isles, while I have not seen anything hinting they know in 5.2 if 5.3 is a lore patch again then they probably will.

[Haven]

Actually, his approach is indeed a good alternative to pandaren's - facing inner demons rather than trying to ignore them. He's trying to harness the power of emotion and turn it into a passionate driving force, while pandaren seek shelter in getting rid of negative emotion. But while his words ring true, his actions... still are those of a typical maniacal villain.

[Cirque]

Actually, his approach is indeed a good alternative to pandaren's - facing inner demons rather than trying to ignore them. He's trying to harness the power of emotion and turn it into a passionate driving force, while pandaren seek shelter in getting rid of negative emotion. But while his words ring true, his actions... still are those of a typical maniacal villain.

But this sort of brings you to the whole Jedi vs Sith thing, too, possibly Blizzard took a leaf out of that lore, too. Sith using negative emotions to their advantage, while Jedi trying to be as zen as any panda. If this is any indication, Garrosh' way is not only 'evil', but doomed to fail.

Since we pretty much know for sure Garrosh goes wrong somehow, somewhere, in this expansion, we can assume that whatever it is he's trying is not really working out. And, really, you also must consider why he's doing it. The pandaren surpress these emotions to have peace - Garrosh seeks to control those emotions, and the evil beings that come from it, to have more power, and with more power, "paint this land in blood" and crush the alliance. There's nothing benign about his intentions. While from a philosophical PoV, there's something to be said about Garrosh' approach to these emotions, from a WoW PoV I don't believe there's anything remotely good about it.